Taravangian's Empathy and the Diagram

[Aleksiel]

I am not saying he works towards his own survival nor that he enjoys being the one in charge. I question his inability to seek other solutions nor to just consider the Diagram may not be the solution. I don't however have textual evidences. It's just that, for me, if he goes forward with such a plan than it is obvious he has not considered any other option. A sane person would have chosen any other option than genocide! Even if a Diagram tells them otherwise, it remains, after all, predictions. Sure it is accurate so far, sure he made provision for it going wrong, but in the end, he chooses to become Hitler. Diagram tells him how things will happen if he does as it says: it does not predict what will happen if he chooses another way.

 

Since the Diagram predicts the only way to save the world is to follow the Diagram, then it accordingly predicts that not following the DIagram will be the end of humanity.

[kaellok he/him]

Any textual evidence to back up your idea of Diagram T refusing to consider other options? He created a course of action that had the best chance to save humanity with the given information. Current average T was wondering how to deal with the Diagrma going off course, but for now the only thing Diagram T hadn't predicted correctly was the number of rioters in Jah Keved. He had even predicted Kaladin among the bridgemen. He hadn't included self-preservation mechanisms in the Diagram to avoid being killed by Szeth or dying in another way, so his own survival wasn't a driving force behind the Diagram.

Here's how I see it:

 

We both agree that on the day he made the Diagram, he was likely capable of coming up with a plan that could save the world.  There is zero evidence that it is the only plan to save the world.  Based on his egocentrism, I believe that he felt everyone else was fallible or otherwise incapable, and so that's why he designed plans to counter them.  You seem to believe that because he designed plans to counter them, they would be incapable of saving the world.  Nowhere, nowhere, that I could find does it say it is the best, or only, chance of humanity's survival--only that humanity's survival is the goal, and no cost is too great. 

 

We're not in disagreement over Diagram-intelligence level Mr T being capable of saving the world, only that he is the only one who can.  His arrogance is that he felt that everyone else was inferior, and so his plan includes that error.  Even though he can predict how people will react at a macro level, it is much less accurate on the micro.  (He, for instance, couldn't tell if Dalinar would be a great ally or not, and seems to only be interested in the bloodthirsty warlord as an ally rather than Dalinar as a leader and unifier of factions.  He didn't predict Kaladin so much as assumed that the superhuman feats performed by the bridgemen indicated a proto-KR which was predicted; he used intuition and deduction to narrow it down further.  ie, Diagram predicted the appearance and return of KR, and current-Mr T combined this with other reports to identify likely suspects.)  So, Mr T makes contingencies and plans for his inability to predict the micro.  Which is fine and good.  But please, tell me, where does it say the Diagram is the only way to save the world?  It isn't--it's simply the way that an arrogant and supremely intelligent man chose, and convinced his less intelligent self to follow.

[Aleksiel]

Here's how I see it:

 

We both agree that on the day he made the Diagram, he was likely capable of coming up with a plan that could save the world.  There is zero evidence that it is the only plan to save the world.  Based on his egocentrism, I believe that he felt everyone else was fallible or otherwise incapable, and so that's why he designed plans to counter them.  You seem to believe that because he designed plans to counter them, they would be incapable of saving the world.  Nowhere, nowhere, that I could find does it say it is the best, or only, chance of humanity's survival--only that humanity's survival is the goal, and no cost is too great. 

 

We're not in disagreement over Diagram-intelligence level Mr T being capable of saving the world, only that he is the only one who can.  His arrogance is that he felt that everyone else was inferior, and so his plan includes that error.  Even though he can predict how people will react at a macro level, it is much less accurate on the micro.  (He, for instance, couldn't tell if Dalinar would be a great ally or not, and seems to only be interested in the bloodthirsty warlord as an ally rather than Dalinar as a leader and unifier of factions.  He didn't predict Kaladin so much as assumed that the superhuman feats performed by the bridgemen indicated a proto-KR which was predicted; he used intuition and deduction to narrow it down further.  ie, Diagram predicted the appearance and return of KR, and current-Mr T combined this with other reports to identify likely suspects.)  So, Mr T makes contingencies and plans for his inability to predict the micro.  Which is fine and good.  But please, tell me, where does it say the Diagram is the only way to save the world?  It isn't--it's simply the way that an arrogant and supremely intelligent man chose, and convinced his less intelligent self to follow.

 

Our differences then comes from the fact that I believe Diagram level intelligent T was beyond arrogance and was fully able to grasp all existing possibilities, thus creating the only solution without emotions or ego interfering and clouding his judgement. If you believe otherwise, then I suggest to agree to disagree on this.

 

However, the reason I am reluctant to trust the Diagram is because I think Diagram smart T either didn't have the salvation of humanity in mind as his final goal or he had an additional hidden agenda to go with it. This is pure speculation, I just suspect there will be some plot-twist around the Diagram.

 

edit: changing a word with a more suitable one I just thought of

Edited June 8, 2014 by Aleksiel

[Shaggai]

Our differences then comes from the fact that I believe Diagram level intelligent T was beyond arrogance and was fully able to grasp all existing possibilities, thus creating the only solution without emotions or ego interfering and clouding his judgement. If you believe otherwise, then I suggest to agree to disagree on this.

 

However, the reason I am reluctant to trust the Diagram is because I think Diagram smart T either didn't have the salvation of humanity in mind as his final goal or he had an additional hidden agenda to go with it. This is pure speculation, I just suspect there will be some plot-twist around the Diagram.

 

edit: changing a word with a more suitable one I just thought of

I expect that the plot-twist with the Diagram is that it's going to be incompatible with Honor (journey before destination and all that), and thus with Surgebinding. Since there's no way they can defeat Odium without Surgebinding, the Diagram is thus doomed from the start.

[Aleksiel]

I expect that the plot-twist with the Diagram is that it's going to be incompatible with Honor (journey before destination and all that), and thus with Surgebinding. Since there's no way they can defeat Odium without Surgebinding, the Diagram is thus doomed from the start.

 

I suppose the Diagram is just that, a way to beat Odium without surgebinding. Nin thinks sugebinders bring Desolation upon Roshar and I'm inclined to believe he knows what he's talking about. Diagram smart Mr T has definitely taken into consideration the benefits of investiture and decided against them.

[Shaggai]

I suppose the Diagram is just that, a way to beat Odium without surgebinding. Nin thinks sugebinders bring Desolation upon Roshar and I'm inclined to believe he knows what he's talking about. Diagram smart Mr T has definitely taken into consideration the benefits of investiture and decided against them.

But he doesn't have certain vital information. Odium has never appointed a champion in the past, so he has no way of knowing that it's possible. Only Dalinar does, because of his visions. And the best way to fight Odium, from what we've seen, is probably to get him to appoint a champion, then have a Radiant fight the champion. That way there's no need to go through all the dangers and deaths of a full Desolation. Mr. T's calculations are based on weathering the Desolation, not preventing it.

[Guest]

Here's how I see it:

 

We both agree that on the day he made the Diagram, he was likely capable of coming up with a plan that could save the world.  There is zero evidence that it is the only plan to save the world.  Based on his egocentrism, I believe that he felt everyone else was fallible or otherwise incapable, and so that's why he designed plans to counter them.  You seem to believe that because he designed plans to counter them, they would be incapable of saving the world.  Nowhere, nowhere, that I could find does it say it is the best, or only, chance of humanity's survival--only that humanity's survival is the goal, and no cost is too great. 

 

We're not in disagreement over Diagram-intelligence level Mr T being capable of saving the world, only that he is the only one who can.  His arrogance is that he felt that everyone else was inferior, and so his plan includes that error.  Even though he can predict how people will react at a macro level, it is much less accurate on the micro.  (He, for instance, couldn't tell if Dalinar would be a great ally or not, and seems to only be interested in the bloodthirsty warlord as an ally rather than Dalinar as a leader and unifier of factions.  He didn't predict Kaladin so much as assumed that the superhuman feats performed by the bridgemen indicated a proto-KR which was predicted; he used intuition and deduction to narrow it down further.  ie, Diagram predicted the appearance and return of KR, and current-Mr T combined this with other reports to identify likely suspects.)  So, Mr T makes contingencies and plans for his inability to predict the micro.  Which is fine and good.  But please, tell me, where does it say the Diagram is the only way to save the world?  It isn't--it's simply the way that an arrogant and supremely intelligent man chose, and convinced his less intelligent self to follow.

 

Amen. Exactly my point: the Diagram cannot be the only way to save humanity. Perpetuating mass murders is not the only way, but it is the way Mr T has chosen. That makes him a villain and a despicable person no matter if his ultimate goal is to save mankind: he is taking the worst possible journey to get there. The fact he does not struggle to come up with another plan testifies to his arrogance and selfishness.

[Aleksiel]

But he doesn't have certain vital information. Odium has never appointed a champion in the past, so he has no way of knowing that it's possible. Only Dalinar does, because of his visions. And the best way to fight Odium, from what we've seen, is probably to get him to appoint a champion, then have a Radiant fight the champion. That way there's no need to go through all the dangers and deaths of a full Desolation. Mr. T's calculations are based on weathering the Desolation, not preventing it.

 

Gavilar also had visions, he was the one who told Vargo about the coming Desolation. So Diagram T likely knew about the champion option. 

[Kurkistan he/him]

Nin thinks sugebinders bring Desolation upon Roshar and I'm inclined to believe he knows what he's talking about.

 

I'll disagree here.

 

Obviously they are fools The Desolation needs no usher It can and will sit where it wishes and the signs are obvious that the spren anticipate it doing so soon The Ancient of Stones must finally begin to crack It is a wonder that upon his will rested the prosperity and peace of a world for over four millennia

 

So it would seem that Mr. T concluded that the spren are responding to the coming Desolation, not the other way around.

 

Just because Nin has been around people who know these things doesn't mean he knows all the Realmatics of the matter. The prelude in WoK touches on this:

 

 

Kalak felt a sharp stab of horror. “What will that do?”

“Ishar believes that so long as there is one of us still bound to the Oathpact, it may be enough. There is a chance we might end the cycle of Desolations.”

 

Which rather indicates that Ishar was the "science dude", or at the very least that they all deferred to him on Realmatics and whatnot, and thus that they were not equally knowledgeable. For all we know Nin is walking around thinking "well I know the spren always start bonding just before the Desolations, so just stop the bonding and we stop the Desolations!!!!!"

[Aleksiel]

 

I'll disagree here.

 

 

So it would seem that Mr. T concluded that the spren are responding to the coming Desolation, not the other way around.

 

Just because Nin has been around people who know these things doesn't mean he knows all the Realmatics of the matter. The prelude in WoK touches on this:

 

 

Which rather indicates that Ishar was the "science dude", or at the very least that they all deferred to him on Realmatics and whatnot, and thus that they were not equally knowledgeable. For all we know Nin is walking around thinking "well I know the spren always start bonding just before the Desolations, so just stop the bonding and we stop the Desolations!!!!!"

 

This doesn't change the point I made about Vargo.

[Kurkistan he/him]

This doesn't change the point I made about Vargo.

 

Which is why I replied only to that one sentence.

[Shaggai]

Gavilar also had visions, he was the one who told Vargo about the coming Desolation. So Diagram T likely knew about the champion option. 

We don't know how much Gavilar shared, or how far he had gotten in the visions before he was assassinated. For all we know Gavilar was halfway through, or only told Taravangian about the general idea of the coming Desolation.

 

Amen. Exactly my point: the Diagram cannot be the only way to save humanity. Perpetuating mass murders is not the only way, but it is the way Mr T has chosen. That makes him a villain and a despicable person no matter if his ultimate goal is to save mankind: he is taking the worst possible journey to get there. The fact he does not struggle to come up with another plan testifies to his arrogance and selfishness.

The Diagram is not the only way by which humanity will survive. But it's the way with the highest probability, according to the information he had on the day of the Diagram. And he's no longer smart enough to analyze all the information he has. He can't come up with another plan that has the reliability of the Diagram. If Taravangian does anything less than his utmost to save humanity, he will be guilty of all the deaths that happen during the Desolation to come.

[dyring]

Moogle: "But diagram-Taravingian is helpful"

 

(quoting bugs for me on this page, or I´d have made it better with larger parts of your post(and other posts)

 

You do not know that, you assume it.

So far, hes tried to kill off the furthest along-radiants. He spread groups among the nation that he allows to kill as they please for their own goals(Moash´s contact comment on this as they leave the shattered plains is riding away)

 

You assume that while mr T gets less caring the further smarter he gets, suddenly when he becomes on his smartest, he cares more again. That is not logical. Diagram-T will be caring less. 

Mr T asked for the capacity to save humanity. It would be rather ironic if he along with getting that capacity, lost the will to save humanity other then as his own playthings.

And even if that was not so, its also quite telling, that diagram-T did not know that the parshmen would turn into voidbringers(source:comment from Moash´s contact saying "that woman was right" about Jasnah, or some such). Thats a BIG fact. And shows that no matter how smart he was, he does not have all the info. And plans based on inperfect knowledge are never perfect.

 

I think Mr-T is the main antagonist of the first 5 books. Odium wont become the main antagonist until bot 6-10.

[Moogle]

So far, hes tried to kill off the furthest along-radiants. He spread groups among the nation that he allows to kill as they please for their own goals(Moash´s contact comment on this as they leave the shattered plains is riding away)

 

He's tried to kill no Radiants that I know of, unless you're referring to Kaladin, who at the time had broken his oath and was no Radiant. The instructions were specific, besides: Kaladin was not to be killed, he was to be kept out of the way of Szeth. Graves was the one disobeying that order for his own personal desire to kill Elhokar. Dalinar might count, but he only became a Radiant as of the end of WoR after the assassination attempts.

 

 

You assume that while mr T gets less caring the further smarter he gets, suddenly when he becomes on his smartest, he cares more again. That is not logical. Diagram-T will be caring less. 

 

I think his empathy will hit all-time lows at his peak-intelligence, but I still think he'll be focused on the goal of saving humanity. Even smart-T, who wanted half the population to commit suicide, was doing it to make people's lives better. I think it's obvious that Mr. T's motivations don't change when he gets more intelligent, he just cares less about the suffering along the way (so long as it is less than the suffering at the end).

 

 

And even if that was not so, its also quite telling, that diagram-T did not know that the parshmen would turn into voidbringers(source:comment from Moash´s contact saying "that woman was right" about Jasnah, or some such). Thats a BIG fact. And shows that no matter how smart he was, he does not have all the info. And plans based on inperfect knowledge are never perfect.

 

This is interesting, and I find it hard to believe that the Diagram didn't know that the parshmen were Voidbringers-in-waiting. I'll concede the point here because I don't have enough information to argue otherwise, but I do have one weak argument: I think it likely that Mr. T knew. It's telling that Graves is the one we hear from being surprised. Graves is fairly low in the overall hierarchy, and has been a sleeper agent for years - he might not know recent interpretations of the Diagram, or may not have been privileged to know the entirety of it. We know the Diagram is encrypted at the upper levels when it has dangerous information ("hold the secret that broke the Knights Radiant"), and the parshman thing may be similarly hidden from the eyes of the lowly mooks.

Edited June 9, 2014 by Moogle

[Fedelpen]

I have a few points to contribute here.

 

1.) We can assume that Taravangian will stay his course as per the Diagram, but we don't know that. The developments at the end of WoR (4 Radiants, a united Alethkar, assassin dead, Everstorm unleashed) may make him reconsider. He might have an alternative plan in the Diagram, he might realize the Diagram's predictions are now broken.

Personally, I think he will do his best to get the world back on course. 

 

2.) Weirdly, (and probably put there by Brandon so we can follow Mr. T's thinking) the Diagram also includes things like "There has to be an answer. What is the answer?" and "but where, where, where, where--Obvious Realization--[...]can we make to use a Truthless? Can we make a Weapon?" I don't know where this fits in, but it would make me worry. Still kind of does. Why waste time writing it? Super-Taravangian should not have written it like that. At the very least, he should have said "Make a Truthless; make a weapon." I hope for their sake that BS simply had a different idea of how such a mind would think than I do. 

 

3.) If he continues the path of the Diagram as revealed to us, there will be conflict. Part of the First Ideal of all Knights Radiant: Journey before Destination. Taravangian uses the philosophy of the ends justify the means, the KR are founded against that principle.

[Aleksiel]

We can assume that Taravangian will stay his course as per the Diagram, but we don't know that. The developments at the end of WoR (4 Radiants, a united Alethkar, assassin dead, Everstorm unleashed) may make him reconsider. He might have an alternative plan in the Diagram, he might realize the Diagram's predictions are now broken.

 

 

But the Diagram isn't broken - it predicted both the appearance of the new KR and the possibility of Dalinar uniting Alethkar. If Diagram T knew about the new KR, then he must have realized someone like that may kill Szeth; he certainly speculated on the idea of Szeth turning against him, so he had predicted the possibility of Szeth meeting a surgebinder.

 

For now, the Diagram stays correct. After sending the message about the everstorm, Dalinar described Vargo as the only willing to listen monarch. So T didn't play dumb or doubtful, didn't delay his response, and overall didn't react like the others. This makes me think the Diagram has at least some guidelines on what to do should Dalinar's assassination fail.

[Seonid he/him]

Here's how Taravangian comes across to me.

 

Here's a man, a deeply compassionate and caring man, who is so concerned with the well-being of others that he is personally funding the hospitals with no expense to those treated. He is friends with Gavilar, who is having visions from Honor. From these visions, the two of them know a Desolation is coming, and perhaps even make plans to work towards stopping it together, but we have no way of knowing that. But then, Gavilar is assassinated.

 

T. is left cut off from the source of all of his information for how to stop the deaths of the people he deeply cares about, and turns in grief or desperation to the Nightwatcher, who grants the boon and curse of fluctuating intelligence/inversely proportional to his empathy (although one potential theory that I like is that the boon was the single day of super-powered intelligence and the curse was the inverse relationship between his intelligence/empathy after. There is nothing in the text that requires his super-intelligence on the day of the Diagram to be associated with zero-empathy.)

 

As a direct result of this, he has the Day of the Diagram (which should become the official title ). A moment of clarity so perfect and precise that he can see by the logical extensions of his own (dare I say it?) supernaturally-powered reason exactly how to influence the predictable course of human history in such a way as to produce the highest possible chance (from his perspective) of saving humanity.

 

And then, he is left alone, cut off again from the source of brilliance and foresight and ability to plan for the future. He knows that Honor is dead, either from the visions or from insight gained from his flash of intelligence. For whatever reason, he believes the Knights Radiant are unreliable (perhaps the secret that destroyed them before has something to do with this). He remembers being smart enough to see all of this, and has committed himself to that course of action. From the information he had on the Day of the Diagram,^TM he has laid out the best possible course. Like Shaggai said, he is not capable of coming up with another plan comparable to it. He and Dalinar together are not capable. He and Dalinar and Jasnah and Kaladin and Shallan and Syl and Pattern and Ivory altogether likely lack the combined intelligence to come up with a superior plan. They certainly lack the information. So he's locked himself into a course that he can't get out of. Like Shaggai says, he is morally committed to it now.

 

The Diagram is not the only way by which humanity will survive. But it's the way with the highest probability, according to the information he had on the day of the Diagram. And he's no longer smart enough to analyze all the information he has. He can't come up with another plan that has the reliability of the Diagram. If Taravangian does anything less than his utmost to save humanity, he will be guilty of all the deaths that happen during the Desolation to come.

 

There isn't any backing down for him now, unless a way that is demonstrably superior in every way. It's a simple, logical position. In fact, it's the basic operating principle of science. The scientific method is inherently conservative. You hang on to the descriptions of reality you have, even as the discrepancies mount, because there isn't anything better. And when a new model that is demonstrably (and consistently so over time) better at describing reality is established, you jump ship (after thoroughly testing the model). Taravangian is acting the same way.

 

Of course, it may not be the right position. In fact, given the state of things in the books so far, it almost certainly isn't the right position. And the Diagram certainly suffers from a crippling lack of the ability to perfectly self-correct. (It should here be noted that the Diagram has some limited self-correcting ability built into it, and Mr. T. has attempted to access more by the use of the Death Rattles, but it almost certainly won't be enough to counteract the full force of accumulated error over time.)

 

 

 

And this is the point that I make it clear that Mr. T's way of saving humanity is an awful way. An absolutely bloody, morally bankrupt and awful way to save humanity. But he believes that it is the only way. And if it were, in fact, the only way, then the only moral choice would be to follow it. Because saving the world is a morally higher cause than the life of any individual or any group of individuals.

 

But, from the viewpoints of other characters we have seen, it isn't the only way. And because we know that, we know that Taravangian's plan is an immoral and a wrong one, because there is a better option. But he can't see that. As far as he can see, his only option is to follow the Diagram exactly, because he is no longer intelligent enough to put together workable alternatives. And until he is confronted with evidence that there is, in fact, such a workable alternative (and one that doesn't require wading through rivers of blood to get there), he is morally incapable of changing his path.

 

My prediction is that one of the important sub-plots of the first 5 books will be Mr. T slowly coming face-to-face with the fact that there was a more ethically acceptable option for saving humanity than the Diagram. His actions have been justified so far only by the strongest necessity. The existence of another viable and workable option removes that necessity, and so as he realizes that Dalinar's option is, in fact, workable, he will have to come to terms (or fail to do so) with the fact that his actions were not necessary, and therefore were not justified. I believe that this realization will break him. I don't know if he will heal over time, whether he will find himself dead at the hands of some justice-dealing hero, or dead by his own hand in remorse. But I think he will break when he realizes that things didn't have to be the way the Diagram outlined. Needless to say, I find Taravangian an exquisitely tragic character.

[Aleksiel]

And this is the point that I make it clear that Mr. T's way of saving humanity is an awful way. An absolutely bloody, morally bankrupt and awful way to save humanity. But he believes that it is the only way. And if it were, in fact, the only way, then the only moral choice would be to follow it. Because saving the world is a morally higher cause than the life of any individual or any group of individuals.

 

But, from the viewpoints of other characters we have seen, it isn't the only way. 

 

And what these others ways that have a good chance to save humanity?

 

Diagram T knew about the new Radinats and thought them incapable. The champion that Tanavast suggested? He himself didn't know if that would work, whereas the Diagram has a way to ensure the survival of humanity should T be able to follow it. It's unclear whether or not Diagram T knew about the champion option and what he though of it. Obviously Honor, being bound by his shardic intention, couldn't suggest anything better. It's unknown whether or not the champion path will save as many/fewer/more people as the Diagram and if the champion option is part of the Diagram.

 

I keep seeing people saying that there are better ways than the Diagram, but I am yet to read even one.

[dyring]

Aleksiel:

 

Would like to point out that we havent seen any real plan for saving humanity from the diagram either, what we have seen so far is only on gaining power for king T, removing threats to his power.

 

Add to that and we have seen several indications that mr T´s machinations have been directly detrimental. Such as hindering the fight against the emerging voidbringers, and very nearly leading to the death of several radiants and while in the process almost stopping the finding of a very secure headquarter in the old radiant city, something invaluable in a war.

[Guest]

Aleksiel:

 

Would like to point out that we havent seen any real plan for saving humanity from the diagram either, what we have seen so far is only on gaining power for king T, removing threats to his power.

 

Add to that and we have seen several indications that mr T´s machinations have been directly detrimental. Such as hindering the fight against the emerging voidbringers, and very nearly leading to the death of several radiants and while in the process almost stopping the finding of a very secure headquarter in the old radiant city, something invaluable in a war.

 

I agree. The best plan we have seen so far is following Dalinar and the Radiants. Mr T works to unite the nations, but the means he is using are not creating unified nations, but destroyed, crushed nations forced under the leadership of a despot.

[Aleksiel]

Aleksiel:

 

Would like to point out that we havent seen any real plan for saving humanity from the diagram either, what we have seen so far is only on gaining power for king T, removing threats to his power.

 

Add to that and we have seen several indications that mr T´s machinations have been directly detrimental. Such as hindering the fight against the emerging voidbringers, and very nearly leading to the death of several radiants and while in the process almost stopping the finding of a very secure headquarter in the old radiant city, something invaluable in a war.

 

For unknown to us reasons, Diagram T considered the new KR a possible hindrance. Nin also think they do more damage than good and we don't know why. I personally don't think he has just gone nuts and irrationally thinks preventing KR will prevent a Desolation, because he should know better. There are some theories around that Honor changed surgebinding or used the surges to trap Odium. I don't have enough information as it is to say whether or not the Radiants should be considered saviors or a part of potential bigger problem. 

 

Dalinar has no idea what Odium is or what's going around what so ever. The visions have so little information it's annoying. They don't show Voidbringers, the Heralds, the Dawnshards, the reason the KR broke apart, never warned Dalinar the Parshmen were potential Voidbringers and so on. In the end, the best Dalinar has is the idea of naming a champion, but no guidance as to how to do that. Tanavast never even explains what Odium is. Overall, the visions were insufferably useless. Dalinar has a rioting country, four Radiants and no idea where to start or what to expect. 

 

The only other guy with a plan is Nalan, who goes around killing criminals who are also surgebinders, because he believes that for some reason they will return the Desolation, and this doesn't seem to pay off.

 

Just because we haven't seen the entire Diagram doesn't mean it isn't a real plan to save humanity. Vargo, Andro and their closest associates have seen it and thought it was a good enough strategy. That's more than any other characters have so far as we know. 

 

[Guest]

 

...

 

 

 

I am sorry. I am completely unable to see how the Diagram is a worthy plan to save humanity. I see it as a plan worthy to plunge the world into unnecessary struggles, massacres, pains in order to create the perfect chaos to help Mr T take control and thus saving what is left. The way I see it, if Mr T is allowed to continue following his Diagram, what ends up being left of the world, assuming he is right, will be in total shamble. The way I see it, once the Desolation really hits, the world resources will already have been spent warring to the benefit of the Diagram to truly be able to resist. How can Jah Keved be able to withstand the everstorm? The whole country was burned down. How will Purelake managed? The whole country succumbed to a deadly plague. So far, the only country we have seen having a chance is Alethki, mainly because Dalinar is trying to create something strong and steady.

 

I agree Dalinar is mainly clueless, which is why Mr T is an egoist to refuse to share what information he does have with the only man trying to stand strong in the face of a terrible event.

 

I do not agree about Nalan either. I believe he has gone mad. Hunting surgebinders and finding irrelevant crimes just to have an excuse to execute them is lame. He is twisting the whole Skybreakers philosophy in a horrible way and I hope Szeth will come to realize that. I cannot even call it a plan. I call it a madman's quest.

[Aleksiel]

...

 

Then lets agree to disagree on Nalan. I give him the benefit of doubt.

 

Dalinar will have to fight to unite anyone. No country would want to be 'united'. Dalinar is considered a mad-man and most people hate Radiants. I don't think even the everstorm will make other countries willing to join Alethkar, so he'll have to unite them by force, much like T is doing, but Vargo has an actual plan unlike Dalinar. The best Dalinar can say is some 'I have a vision'-speech that most people will reject. 

 

I understand why T won't try to join forces with Dalinar. Dalinar is a tyrant and also he'd never stand for what T had done, so there's no way for Dalinar and the new KR to join T. Humanity however doesn't have the time to discuss moral and ethics. 

 

edit: spelling

Edited June 22, 2014 by Aleksiel

[dyring]

Aleksiel

 

1. About radiants being saviors or part of a bigger problem, Honor did think it was a must to have them back. While he is dead, I´d still trust his opinion above Nalan everyday.

 

2. All your comments on Dalinar there aplies to mr T aswell. Most of his info almost certainly comes from the same visions, when Gavilar had them. He did not belive that the parshmen would end up being voidbringers either, despite having heard it from Jasnah.

The same with that he would be forced to unite all.

Frankly, a conquest by a foreign army would be less devastating to a nation, consume less of its force, then a complete civil war where many sides fight eachothers to a standstill, eradicating both armies and whole noble lines(together with mrT´s assassinations). Besides, once the parhmenn makes an entry, Dalinar should be considered less of a madman as he is proven right. Alethkars nobility is likely loyal now, and while there are riots in Kolinar, its targeting the queen. It should not be that lasting once changes are made.

[Aleksiel]

About radiants being saviors or part of a bigger problem, Honor did think it was a must to have them back. While he is dead, I´d still trust his opinion above Nalan everyday.

 

Hmm, I didn't think about this, good point. Though there's the possibility of something happening after Honor was splinter, so Tanavast wouldn't have known about it unlike Nin who was still around.

 

 

 

2. All your comments on Dalinar there aplies to mr T aswell. Most of his info almost certainly comes from the same visions, when Gavilar had them. He did not belive that the parshmen would end up being voidbringers either, despite having heard it from Jasnah.

The same with that he would be forced to unite all.

Frankly, a conquest by a foreign army would be less devastating to a nation, consume less of its force, then a complete civil war where many sides fight eachothers to a standstill, eradicating both armies and whole noble lines(together with mrT´s assassinations). Besides, once the parhmenn makes an entry, Dalinar should be considered less of a madman as he is proven right. Alethkars nobility is likely loyal now, and while there are riots in Kolinar, its targeting the queen. It should not be that lasting once changes are made.

 

The info might come from the same visions (though we're not certain yet), but Diagram T was smarter than Dalinar would ever be, so imo T is the one with the better plan. 

 

edit: on Nin and killing surgebinders - Tanavast can't suggest them to be killed, because that would be against his shardic intention. I don't think he ever said to use the KR to fight Odium or have them use surgebinding in any way. I'm not ruling the possibility of Nalan having a point just yet.

Edited June 22, 2014 by Aleksiel