Silverblade5 he/him Posted December 2, 2020 Posted December 2, 2020 Both are secretive orgainizations headed by Kelsier . Could both be local chapters of the same organization?
Use the Falchion Posted December 3, 2020 Posted December 3, 2020 I've seen the theory before. I'm not sure I believe it, but I could easily see that being the case. (Weirdly enough, I thought that Kelsier could/would be involved in both groups at certain points in time, and even thought they might be related. But I never though Kelsier would head them both if related!)
Nesh he/him Posted December 3, 2020 Posted December 3, 2020 Does Kelsier head the Set? I'm not seeing anything on the Coppermind. 4
dannnex male Posted December 3, 2020 Posted December 3, 2020 2 hours ago, Silverblade5 said: Both are secretive orgainizations headed by Hide contents Kelsier . Could both be local chapters of the same organization? 42 minutes ago, Nesh said: Does Kelsier head the Set? I'm not seeing anything on the Coppermind. Yeah, I’ve never thought that Kel let the Set.
AonEne he/him Posted December 3, 2020 Posted December 3, 2020 I don't believe we have any information on who leads the Set, much less that it's Kelsier. Where are you getting that from? 1
+Harrycrapper Posted December 4, 2020 Posted December 4, 2020 I'm not sure where OP is getting that and while it's technically possible we have one indication that it is not the case. Spoiler At the end of Alloy of Law, Marsh gives Marasi Spook's book on Hemalurgy. I can't remember the exact wording but when asked why he was giving the book to them, Marsh said that Wax was doing "his brother's work." So, if opposing the Set is something Kelsier would approve of, I can't see why/how he could be leading that same group at that time. It could be that after whatever Trell is betrays the humans in the group like Wax's uncle that Kelsier takes them over and turns them into the Ghostbloods. 2
Nesh he/him Posted December 4, 2020 Posted December 4, 2020 1 hour ago, Harrycrapper said: I'm not sure where OP is getting that and while it's technically possible we have one indication that it is not the case. Hide contents At the end of Alloy of Law, Marsh gives Marasi Spook's book on Hemalurgy. I can't remember the exact wording but when asked why he was giving the book to them, Marsh said that Wax was doing "his brother's work." So, if opposing the Set is something Kelsier would approve of, I can't see why/how he could be leading that same group at that time. It could be that after whatever Trell is betrays the humans in the group like Wax's uncle that Kelsier takes them over and turns them into the Ghostbloods. That doesn't line up timeline-wise. The front half of Stormlight predates Era 2. 3
+Harrycrapper Posted December 4, 2020 Posted December 4, 2020 10 minutes ago, Nesh said: That doesn't line up timeline-wise. The front half of Stormlight predates Era 2. Ah, I keep forgetting that, nevermind.
VirtuousTraveller Posted December 4, 2020 Posted December 4, 2020 What if Kelsier creates the Ghostbloods to combat the Set, which may be a manifestation of Odium/Taravangian's presence on Scadrial? Even the name "Ghostbloods" makes sense now that we know who is leading it - a cognitive shadow (ghost) who desires returning to a physical body in the physical realm (blood). 2
Rorzikel Posted December 4, 2020 Posted December 4, 2020 I've considered whether Kelsier was the vessel of Trell and that this corruption is why Trell is red. My only problem is that it would take a pretty substantial leap for Kelsier to want to destroy Scadrial I could see it however if (SotD2 spoilers) Spoiler Autonomy showed Kelsier a vision of Scadrial's imperialism in the future and Kelsier begins to identify more with the downtrodden of the greater cosmere than with a people on the pathway to become everything he despises. 1
Kingsdaughter613 she/her Posted December 10, 2020 Posted December 10, 2020 On 12/4/2020 at 10:58 AM, MyrmidonOfAchilles said: I've considered whether Kelsier was the vessel of Trell and that this corruption is why Trell is red. My only problem is that it would take a pretty substantial leap for Kelsier to want to destroy Scadrial I could see it however if (SotD2 spoilers) Reveal hidden contents Autonomy showed Kelsier a vision of Scadrial's imperialism in the future and Kelsier begins to identify more with the downtrodden of the greater cosmere than with a people on the pathway to become everything he despises. Kelsier was Preservation and Preservation was part of the planet. He was literally the entire world. I think the part of him that is a Sliver would never allow him to work toward Scadrial’s destruction. 1
Rorzikel Posted December 10, 2020 Posted December 10, 2020 3 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said: Kelsier was Preservation and Preservation was part of the planet. He was literally the entire world. I think the part of him that is a Sliver would never allow him to work toward Scadrial’s destruction. Sja-Anat is a major splinter of Odium and she switched to team Honor and has been acting distinctly non-Odious. Highspren have already switched sides for ideological reasons and in RoW we learned about how several Truespren species were going over to Odium motivated by the desire to live and a grudge against humanity. Quote “Humans are not from this land,” Blended said. “You are invaders, and bonds with you are not natural. Be careful what you say—you will encourage us to return to the singers. They betrayed us long ago, but never on the scale of the humans. Perhaps the highspren have the correct idea in joining with the armies of the Fused.” Quote The things that inkspren said—about joining Odium’s side—are on the minds of many spren. Including many in this very fortress.” That hit Adolin like a gut punch. “Honorspren would join the enemy?” Adolin said. “That would make them no better than the highspren!” We also know that Ati, a vessel of ten thousand years rather than Kel’s mere moments, and who had been entirely subsumed into the intent, would have seen that influence fade significantly. Quote Argent (paraphrased) If Ati had somehow managed to give up Ruin and returned to being a regular person, would his mind have gradually reverted from its corruption by Ruin's intent, or would he always be determined to destroy? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Over time Ruin's influence would fade, but Ati would remain a Sliver, so there would be some permanent effects. Steelheart Chicago signing (Oct. 5, 2013) Investiture makeup, intent, and previous allegiance to their shard, humanity, and planet does not stop spren from having some level of free will to act even in what appears to be outright contradiction of their traits.
Kingsdaughter613 she/her Posted December 10, 2020 Posted December 10, 2020 2 minutes ago, MyrmidonOfAchilles said: Sja-Anat is a major splinter of Odium and she switched to team Honor and has been acting distinctly non-Odious. Highspren have already switched sides for ideological reasons and in RoW we learned about how several Truespren species were going over to Odium motivated by the desire to live and a grudge against humanity. We also know that Ati, a vessel of ten thousand years rather than Kel’s mere moments, and who had been entirely subsumed into the intent, would have seen that influence fade significantly. Investiture makeup, intent, and previous allegiance to their shard, humanity, and planet does not stop spren from having some level of free will to act even in what appears to be outright contradiction of their traits. Maybe, but he loves his world. It’s what he was working toward the entire time we’ve known him. He wants Scadrial protected. He’s not about to destroy it. I can see him turning against Saze; I don’t think he’s capable of turning against his home. 1
Rorzikel Posted December 10, 2020 Posted December 10, 2020 Just now, Kingsdaughter613 said: Maybe, but he loves his world. It’s what he was working toward the entire time we’ve known him. He wants Scadrial protected. He’s not about to destroy it. I can see him turning against Saze; I don’t think he’s capable of turning against his home. Mhm. As I said, this theory heavily hinges on Kelsier identifying with oppressed peoples of the entire cosmere rather than only and always Scadrians.
Kingsdaughter613 she/her Posted December 10, 2020 Posted December 10, 2020 Just now, MyrmidonOfAchilles said: Mhm. As I said, this theory heavily hinges on Kelsier identifying with oppressed peoples of the entire cosmere rather than only and always Scadrians. Considering he’s a neurological psychopath, that’s very unlikely. Empathizing with other worlds isn’t something he’d really be capable of doing. He’d have to have a personal connection to the world/people in question. Not to mention that Vin died for Scadrial. He’ll protect it for her, even if he would help defend other worlds against his own, which is a more likely situation. But he won’t allow Scadrial itself to be harmed, if only because of how much he and his friends sacrificed to restore it. He’s much more likely to stage a revolution, take down the government he doesn’t like, and start a new religion dedicated to himself and whatever cause he’s into. Also worth noting that Kell doesn’t actually have a problem with oppression - as long as he’s the oppressor! He wanted to execute all nobles for the crime of being born. He had planned to set himself up in TLR’s place if he succeeded at killing the man. He DOES do that in the South, where he rules for years. Despite his actions in TFE, he’s not really a champion for the underdog or the oppressed. So long as it’s HIS planet doing the oppressing, he’s fine. If someone else tries it on Scadrial though, well that he just can’t allow. 1
Nesh he/him Posted December 10, 2020 Posted December 10, 2020 I don't think Kelsier would turn on Sazed. Even now one of the Ghostblood's core tenets is "We don't turn on our own." Kell for all his faults, and they are myriad, would never turn on one of the original crew. 1
basement_boi he/him Posted January 21, 2021 Posted January 21, 2021 On 12/4/2020 at 7:05 AM, Nesh said: That doesn't line up timeline-wise. The front half of Stormlight predates Era 2. The Ghostbloods have presumably been around for a long time. The Set had to plan for a while, with Telsin and Edward needing living in secrecy for so long. However, I think, if anything, the Set would be an outgrowth of the GBs, not the other way around. 1
KSub Posted January 21, 2021 Posted January 21, 2021 (edited) Kelsier could certainly be working against Harmony. Harmony by his own words is caught between the intents of the shards. If Kelsier is taking drastic action which is believable then Harmony could be opposed to that. Or maybe they just have different ideas of what is right, more of a tangential opposition than head on. And I don't think Kelsier is Trell. Its just a feeling but why would Kelsier want to hide the Cosmere from Harmony? More likely its another shard trying to prevent someone with the power of two shards from interfering on their world. So, no, I think the Set is separate from the Ghostbloods. More likely they are a rival organization like the Sons of Honor. Edited January 21, 2021 by KSub 3
Kingsdaughter613 she/her Posted January 22, 2021 Posted January 22, 2021 9 hours ago, KSub said: Kelsier could certainly be working against Harmony. Harmony by his own words is caught between the intents of the shards. If Kelsier is taking drastic action which is believable then Harmony could be opposed to that. Or maybe they just have different ideas of what is right, more of a tangential opposition than head on. And I don't think Kelsier is Trell. Its just a feeling but why would Kelsier want to hide the Cosmere from Harmony? More likely its another shard trying to prevent someone with the power of two shards from interfering on their world. So, no, I think the Set is separate from the Ghostbloods. More likely they are a rival organization like the Sons of Honor. Kell is definitely hiding things from Saze. It’s pretty clear that Kell was aware of Odium’s threat before Sazed was. That said, I doubt they’re actively at odds. Just working in different manners to protect their home. And I doubt Kelsier is leading the Set. Involved? Of course he is. He’s probably got several people infiltrating them.
Zanarkand Posted January 22, 2021 Posted January 22, 2021 Am I the only one who sees the ending of Secret History, with Kell and Spook, as the founding of the ghostbloods? Cognitive Shadow + Hemalurgy = Ghostblood. Their goal seems to be generally to discover and exploit the secrets of the cosmere for fun and profit. 1
KSub Posted January 22, 2021 Posted January 22, 2021 13 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said: And I doubt Kelsier is leading the Set. Involved? Of course he is. He’s probably got several people infiltrating them. I didn't interpret it that way. You are, of course, correct. 10 hours ago, Zanarkand said: Am I the only one who sees the ending of Secret History, with Kell and Spook, as the founding of the ghostbloods? Cognitive Shadow + Hemalurgy = Ghostblood. Their goal seems to be generally to discover and exploit the secrets of the cosmere for fun and profit. For some reason I never put this together. It seems so obvious now. 1
Kingsdaughter613 she/her Posted January 22, 2021 Posted January 22, 2021 5 minutes ago, KSub said: I didn't interpret it that way. You are, of course, correct. For some reason I never put this together. It seems so obvious now. 11 hours ago, Zanarkand said: Am I the only one who sees the ending of Secret History, with Kell and Spook, as the founding of the ghostbloods? Cognitive Shadow + Hemalurgy = Ghostblood. Their goal seems to be generally to discover and exploit the secrets of the cosmere for fun and profit. Brandon once said we’d seen the proto-Ghostbloods, the Ghostbloods before they were Ghostbloods. So: Kelsier, Spook, Breeze and Ham. Possibly Alriane and Beldre. And I still think Spook invented the name as a joke and, much to everyone’s dismay, it somehow stuck.
KSub Posted January 22, 2021 Posted January 22, 2021 11 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said: Brandon once said we’d seen the proto-Ghostbloods, the Ghostbloods before they were Ghostbloods. So: Kelsier, Spook, Breeze and Ham. Possibly Alriane and Beldre. And I still think Spook invented the name as a joke and, much to everyone’s dismay, it somehow stuck. Knowing that, I have to believe Ghostblood HQ won't be happy with Mraizes actions. 1
Kingsdaughter613 she/her Posted January 22, 2021 Posted January 22, 2021 40 minutes ago, KSub said: Knowing that, I have to believe Ghostblood HQ won't be happy with Mraizes actions. I think a lot would depend on how it’s presented. It occurred to me a little while ago that Kelsier wouldn’t perceive 15 1/2 year old (by Scadrian years) Lift as a child. He’d see her a young woman and capable combatant. Unless he specifically knew about Lift’s psychology, he has no reason to treat her any differently than another combatant. Remember: he comes from a time where no one questioned 15 year old Spook being a spy or 16 year old Vin being a spy and assassin. Demoux wasn’t much older and he led an army platoon. And once you consider that Kelsier doesn’t recognize that Lift is still a child, well, then how unhappy he’d be with Mraize’s actions becomes a lot more questionable. Probably not thrilled, but I doubt he’d be that upset. Especially since a Mraize made sure Lift wouldn’t be killed.
KSub Posted January 22, 2021 Posted January 22, 2021 28 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said: I think a lot would depend on how it’s presented. It occurred to me a little while ago that Kelsier wouldn’t perceive 15 1/2 year old (by Scadrian years) Lift as a child. He’d see her a young woman and capable combatant. Unless he specifically knew about Lift’s psychology, he has no reason to treat her any differently than another combatant. Remember: he comes from a time where no one questioned 15 year old Spook being a spy or 16 year old Vin being a spy and assassin. Demoux wasn’t much older and he led an army platoon. And once you consider that Kelsier doesn’t recognize that Lift is still a child, well, then how unhappy he’d be with Mraize’s actions becomes a lot more questionable. Probably not thrilled, but I doubt he’d be that upset. Especially since a Mraize made sure Lift wouldn’t be killed. I see what you're saying. I just read through his article on the coppermind and his actions seem justifiable. I just get this vibe off Mraize but I guess nearly every time we see him is from Shallans POV.
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