Nightblood Anti-Investiture

[ChaseBakes]

So we saw a lot of Nightblood in RoW and I wanted to share a theory.  So I believe that Nightblood uses the anti-Investiture we learned about (e.g. anti-Voidlight, anti-Stormlight) in order to destroy.  So think about it: Raboniel told Navani about how anti-Voidlight would react with Odium's vessel to kill him like what was done to Tanavast.  Coincidently, Rayse, Odium's Vessel, a being that should be too powerful to be killed by a human creation, was then killed later by Nightblood.  Furthermore, we see Nightblood damaging Ishar's Honorblade; this was previously thought to be impossible.  The only theory I can come up with is it came into contact with anti-Investiture.  Now, some might argue that Nightblood wasn't damaged in either process as has been seen in the case of Investiture reacting with its opposite.  Remember that Shadblades and Honorblades are pieces of power manifested in the Physical Realm.  Nightblood, however, was once an ordinary sword infused with massive amounts of Investiture and given a Command with Intent.  It then uses external Investiture to fuel its power.  My theory is that, somehow, the Investiture that Nightblood absorbs from its bearer becomes inverted, as we saw Navani do in her experiments.  This anti-Investiture is then what causes instant antihalation upon contact with its opposite.  We saw anti-Stormlight used to kill Phendorana.  I believe that would still happen if she had been manifested as a Blade.   Possibly in the form of, say, breaking or chipping it?  I also believe that is how Nightblood kills so... uniquely.  The descriptions of people being instantly vaporized sound similar to what happened to Phendorana as well as Raboniel's and her daughter's souls.

So definitely not cannon and I am sure my theory has some holes, but I honestly believe this has merit.  I would love to here your thoughts as I believe this will have massive implications for the future!

[KandraAllomancer he/him]

 One argument against it would be that the smoke Nightblood produces is corrupted Breath:

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

Anyway, Nightblood is named for the smoke he leaks, and he originally had a different name when he was created. Vasher himself dubbed the sword Nightblood after he had used it to kill the woman he loved. The blackness that leaks out is actually corrupted and consumed Breaths, the ones that Nightblood leeches off anyone who draws him.

Warbreaker Annotations (April 25, 2011)

Also, anti-Investiture needs to be prepared specifically for each type of Investiture, with specific Intent. Nightblood seems far too universal for that

[ChaseBakes]

We did not know about anti-Investiture when that WoB came out.  So it is possible that now with more books released he would answer differently.  It may be possible that, if it IS anti-Investiture, it is unbound, Investiture lacking Connection.

[Honorless he/him]

I was wondering about Nightblood too, and whether he might be anti-Endowment or anti-Ruin or pure anti-Investiture or something

[Nesh he/him]

I do wonder how Nightblood would react if he tried to eat Anti-Investiture.  I doubt he's mde of the stuff though.

[Halyo_Alex he/him]

11 minutes ago, Nesh said:

I do wonder how Nightblood would react if he tried to eat Anti-Investiture.  I doubt he's mde of the stuff though.

...Probably, as they say, "Bad Things"

[Nesh he/him]

Just now, Halyo_Alex said:

...Probably, as they say, "Bad Things"

An explosion is likely, but to get rid of something like Nightblood, I could see someone taking the risk.

[Halyo_Alex he/him]

2 minutes ago, Nesh said:

An explosion is likely, but to get rid of something like Nightblood, I could see someone taking the risk.

Anti-Ruin investiture would be the way to go, then.

[ChaseBakes]

13 minutes ago, beewall said:

So far as we are aware, blank Investiture is not a thing. We've been explicitly told it's not, and I see no reason to doubt that.

WoB please?  I have heard that it is a thing but it is unstable and tries to connect to whatever it comes into contact with which is irrelevant when applied to my theory.  So an unbound Investiture that Connects to Honor would become Stormlight, unbound ant-Investiture that Connects with honor becomes anti-Stormlight.  I may be wrong though this is just my understanding from Q&As regarding converting Investiture from form to form.

[seriodor]

It could be that the mechanism Nightblood uses to kill heavily invested beings is just taking Investiture from a source, inverting it into anti-Investiture and then pumping it back into it's target. Killing something with it's own power. That seems like it would be a way for it to kill any invested being. 

[Hurricane_Privileged]

Brandon constantly refers to Investiture as the "powers of creation". I think Vasher using "Destroy" as part of his Intent when creating NB caused something funky/corrupted within NB, like dividing by zero. 

[Leuthie]

Nightblood corrupts Investiture, turning it black (red is the color of corrupted Investiture as light, black is the color of corrupted Investiture as smoke).

Anti-light annihilates Investiture. Creating explosions, not smoke.

 

[Leuthie]

A simple answer could have been: "All Investiture has Intent."

[seriodor]

 

7 minutes ago, beewall said:

"Is there non-Adonalsium-origin power like Investiture in the cosmere?"

Is there a WoB where he answers this?

[ChaseBakes]

3 hours ago, beewall said:

Sure thing!

 

Thanks for the WoB, beewall I was very curious about that topic and hadn't encountered that post so thanks.  Anyway, a different possibility is what seriodor said:

5 hours ago, seriodor said:

It could be that the mechanism Nightblood uses to kill heavily invested beings is just taking Investiture from a source, inverting it into anti-Investiture and then pumping it back into it's target. Killing something with it's own power. That seems like it would be a way for it to kill any invested being. 

I like that theory a lot.  Because it is well established that Nightblood drains Investiture from both its bearer AND its victim.  Draining Investiture alone is not enough to destroy a being.  But using that Investiture and converting it to its opposite... that could work.  But yeah no sure way to know how Nightblood kills yet, not enough information and Nightblood is very unique.  Remember that he, not knowing how to fulfill his Command, decided for himself the Intent of his Command as well as how to go about doing it.  So I think it is possible it did something like this that is not well known to those in the Cosmere.

And thanks everyone for your theories!  Nightblood is one of my favorite characters and getting so much feedback is awesome!

[ChaseBakes]

3 hours ago, Leuthie said:

Nightblood corrupts Investiture, turning it black (red is the color of corrupted Investiture as light, black is the color of corrupted Investiture as smoke).

Anti-light annihilates Investiture. Creating explosions, not smoke.

 

Just a few questions: I have seen the WoB about the smoke being corrupted Breaths but... what are corrupted Breaths, or corrupted Investiture in general?  This is a total shot in the dark but what is corrupted Investiture is the byproduct of the reaction between Investiture and its opposite?  Navani also notes a dark smoke leaving the mouth of Raboniel's daughter after being killed by anti-Voidlight.  You're post just made me think of that possibility.  Also where do we see red being Corrupted Light?  Not trying to be argumentative, just curious haven't heard that before.

And one clarification: The explosion was caused by pressure because the reaction was confined to a gemstone.  Raboniel stated this specifically, after blowing up Navani's lab (sorry don't have time to find the quote).  She also noted that in the air, where the reaction isn't pressurized, it would not be explosive.  This is seen when Raboniel, her daughter, and Phendorana are all killed by using Investiture.  No explosions there.

[DiePie]

14 hours ago, ChaseBakes said:

Just a few questions: I have seen the WoB about the smoke being corrupted Breaths but... what are corrupted Breaths, or corrupted Investiture in general?

"corruption" in the Cosmere is generally where investiture is modified after it's original creation. For example: Sja-Anat "corrupts" spen by using Odium's investiture to modify them.

though corrupted investiture could definitely be a byproduct of an investiture and anti-investiture reaction, especially in situations where the anti-investiture and investiture don't perfectly align, so there are leftover parts that don't participate in the reaction?

15 hours ago, ChaseBakes said:

Also where do we see red being Corrupted Light?  Not trying to be argumentative, just curious haven't heard that before.

 I believe we see red light (red signifying corruption) during the W&W series, but I can't remember the context for that.

[Leuthie]

20 hours ago, ChaseBakes said:

Just a few questions: I have seen the WoB about the smoke being corrupted Breaths but... what are corrupted Breaths, or corrupted Investiture in general?  This is a total shot in the dark but what is corrupted Investiture is the byproduct of the reaction between Investiture and its opposite?  Navani also notes a dark smoke leaving the mouth of Raboniel's daughter after being killed by anti-Voidlight.  You're post just made me think of that possibility.  Also where do we see red being Corrupted Light?  Not trying to be argumentative, just curious haven't heard that before.

• Corrupted Investiture is Investiture that has been altered from its original Intent.
• Red eyes and red spren are indications of corrupted souls or corruption in Light form. https://wob.coppermind.net/adv_search/?query=corruption

20 hours ago, ChaseBakes said:

And one clarification: The explosion was caused by pressure because the reaction was confined to a gemstone.  Raboniel stated this specifically, after blowing up Navani's lab (sorry don't have time to find the quote).  She also noted that in the air, where the reaction isn't pressurized, it would not be explosive.  This is seen when Raboniel, her daughter, and Phendorana are all killed by using Investiture.  No explosions there.

A tiny explosion in an already pressurized container can result in a large explosion. The same tiny explosion in normal pressure (or out in the open) might not even be noticed.

A tiny explosion is still an explosion. Light and its Anti-Light react by annihilating one another and creating outward pressure. If the annihilation happens in a gemstone, the gemstone explodes and the energy is released instantly at high velocities. If the annihilation happens in the open or in a squishy body, the energy is released slower. Still an explosion, just not as fast.

That's to fix my semantics.

The "explosions" in the case of the Fused occurred in the Spiritual Realm, I believe. Hemalurgic principles. As a Herald killing knife, the knife had to stab the victim to create a Connection to the Spiritual (I think Raboniel even says as much), where the Rysium "conducted" the Cognitive Shadow into the waiting gem.  In the Fused killing knife, the Rysium was reversed. The stab resulted in a Connection and the anti-Voidlight was conducted into the Spiritual, where it annihilated the Cognitive Shadow (made up of Voidlight). The Voidlight - Anti-Voidlight reaction didn't even take place in the Physical, so no Physical explosion.

Voidlight - Anti-Voidlight reaction in open air wouldn't occur instantaneously like it would in a "pressurized" vessel like a gem, so the instantaneous differential wouldn't be large enough to create a noticeable explosion.

If I throw a full plastic cigarette lighter into a campfire, it would create a small explosion with a shockwave that would push a lot of the fire around. I've done it.

If I take the fuel and spray it into the air and light the droplets, it will burn quickly and create heat, but there would be no outward air pressure to call an "explosion".

[Mystraka]

My honest thought after reading the two latest releases is this:

We know that Rysn became a Dawnshard after being imbued with a command and intent while visiting Akinah.
We also know that at some point, Wit held a Dawnshard, but no longer does.

The Dawnshards appear to be extremely powerful commands that likely require significant investiture to take advantage of (Hence Rysn being forbidden a spren bond)
Nightblood was created with a massive Breath cost, and a simple yet strong command.

My Theory:  Wit/Hoid gave the Dawnshard (command) to Shashara, who awakened Nightblood uising the dawnshard command and massive amounts of investiture.  i.e. The command used to awaken Nightblood was actually the Dawnshard command "destroy evil".  This is why Azure's awakened sword is vastly different to Nightblood.

[Serack he/him]

On 11/29/2020 at 11:30 PM, Honorless said:

I was wondering about Nightblood too, and whether he might be anti-Endowment or anti-Ruin or pure anti-Investiture or something

With the context of combining different Shardlights to make Towerlight and Warlight, I'd like to use the term "full spectrum Investiture" as I expect if you combined investiture from all 16 shards you would get something like that.

 

Edit: all 16 not 6

Edited December 10, 2020 by Serack

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

19 hours ago, Mystraka said:

My honest thought after reading the two latest releases is this:

We know that Rysn became a Dawnshard after being imbued with a command and intent while visiting Akinah.
We also know that at some point, Wit held a Dawnshard, but no longer does.

The Dawnshards appear to be extremely powerful commands that likely require significant investiture to take advantage of (Hence Rysn being forbidden a spren bond)
Nightblood was created with a massive Breath cost, and a simple yet strong command.

My Theory:  Wit/Hoid gave the Dawnshard (command) to Shashara, who awakened Nightblood uising the dawnshard command and massive amounts of investiture.  i.e. The command used to awaken Nightblood was actually the Dawnshard command "destroy evil".  This is why Azure's awakened sword is vastly different to Nightblood.

Hoid’s Dawnshard prevented him from harming people.

[SpicyPepperoni6]

On 11/29/2020 at 2:05 PM, ChaseBakes said:

So we saw a lot of Nightblood in RoW and I wanted to share a theory.  So I believe that Nightblood uses the anti-Investiture we learned about (e.g. anti-Voidlight, anti-Stormlight) in order to destroy.  So think about it: Raboniel told Navani about how anti-Voidlight would react with Odium's vessel to kill him like what was done to Tanavast.  Coincidently, Rayse, Odium's Vessel, a being that should be too powerful to be killed by a human creation, was then killed later by Nightblood.  Furthermore, we see Nightblood damaging Ishar's Honorblade; this was previously thought to be impossible.  The only theory I can come up with is it came into contact with anti-Investiture.  Now, some might argue that Nightblood wasn't damaged in either process as has been seen in the case of Investiture reacting with its opposite.  Remember that Shadblades and Honorblades are pieces of power manifested in the Physical Realm.  Nightblood, however, was once an ordinary sword infused with massive amounts of Investiture and given a Command with Intent.  It then uses external Investiture to fuel its power.  My theory is that, somehow, the Investiture that Nightblood absorbs from its bearer becomes inverted, as we saw Navani do in her experiments.  This anti-Investiture is then what causes instant antihalation upon contact with its opposite.  We saw anti-Stormlight used to kill Phendorana.  I believe that would still happen if she had been manifested as a Blade.   Possibly in the form of, say, breaking or chipping it?  I also believe that is how Nightblood kills so... uniquely.  The descriptions of people being instantly vaporized sound similar to what happened to Phendorana as well as Raboniel's and her daughter's souls.

So definitely not cannon and I am sure my theory has some holes, but I honestly believe this has merit.  I would love to here your thoughts as I believe this will have massive implications for the future!

Brandon says that Nightblood did not begin as the most invested entity (except for shards), but became that powerful overtime. Further, he is described as consuming investure, not destroying it (which is how he became so powerful). If he was or contained a form of anti-investiture, he would destroy normal investiture, not consume it. He would actually lose power, as anti and normal investiture annihilate each other. So I doubt he has anti-investiture

[Proletariat]

I don't think Nightblood is anti-investiture - it's just end-negative investiture which is pretty rare in the Cosmere, but also much more effective as a weapon than anti-investiture. 

Nightblood (like hemalurgy) is of Ruin and interacts with any positive or even end-neutral manifestation of investiture by consuming a portion of it for an effect (powering the sword, powering a single ability) that diminishes over time (black mist leaking, slow expiry of invested spikes), and destroying/dispersing the rest. It just seems to be a matter of scale. And it's pretty versatile as it's been so far confirmed that investiture from Autonomy, Cultivation, Devotion, Dominion, Endowment, Honor, Odium, and at least one other can be 'Ruined'. 

This is superficially similar to the destructive properties of anti-investiture, but the principles by which this is achieved are quite different. Navani is able to produce anti-lights keyed to the intent of a specific Shard that obliterate that specific form of investiture rather than a broad parasitic kind of investiture that does give access to some powers. This means that a bearer of anti-investiture also does not gain anything at all from what they've done - no talking swords or magical spikes - and needs pretty specific targets. As an example, if you created anti-Voidlight and put it into a Raysium blade then I'm not sure it would do anything at all to the Mist on Scadrial or to the Divine Breath of a Returned. It might just be a normal knife in that situation whereas Nightblood would be damaging to both.

The only thing that makes the anti-investiture discovery significant is that there's been a deliberate effort to suppress the spread of knowledge of how to make anything like Nightblood, which is far more dangerous as a weapon than a knife that can functionally only do anything to Fused and Regals one at a time. That might change if Odium cooperates and mass produces Raysium, but yeah, not that similar when you dig into it.

 

[jasnah kholin]

I do not believe this to be true because nightblood acts more like a battery than anything else. In the coppermind it says on the topic of anti investiture two things one is that the only known anti investiture is anti stormlight and anti voidlight, my second point is that the coppermind also says that anti investiture reacting with investiture would destroy both. Now I can see where you're coming from I used to theorize about this but nightblood acts more like a battery and when it gains enough investiture it is sated and will use that energy to destroy evil. I think it becomes hungry when outside because it no longer has as much investiture supporting it's consciousness which is necessary for it to function and destroy evil. 

[cometaryorbit]

Yeah I think Nightblood is more like a Larkin or Leecher combined with a super-powered Shardblade - it has the other-Realm cut/destroy effect of a Shardblade and it eats/leeches Investiture. But I think that Investiture is eaten (partly consumed into Nightblood partly expelled as black smoke) not turned into energy by an Investiture/anti-Investiture reaction.