So who will be Odiums champion

[alder24]

3 hours ago, Aredor said:

Yes, there has to be. The deal between Rayse and Dalinar carries through to Taravangian and Dalinar. Both agreed to send a willing champion on the tenth day of the new month to the top of Urithiru. If Odium were to not send a champion, he would be in violation of the contract and would then be in Dalinar's power. I'm not sure how Odium would convince Dalinar that they should both break the contract, or even if that could work. 

The most preferable outcome for Odium is to make Dalinar break the deal, freeing Odium from Honor and Roshar. It's not about choosing the best champion, it's about choosing the one that Dalinar will refuse to fight, or doing something preventing Dalinar's champion from participating in the contest (without harming them). Odium might also choose somebody that would make a Dalinar’s party intervene to stop them from being killed, meaning Dalinar has broken the terms and the deal is void. That’s what Odium needs to do the most, force Dalinar to break the contract, not just kill Honor's champion. 

This means Gavinor as Odium's champion, as much as I hate this theory, makes sense because Dalinar would very likely refuse to kill his beloved nephew. Adolin, no matter how unlikely he is to be Odium's champion, is similarly a good choice. Moash too - Kaladin still treats him as a friend and if Kaladin were to believe that Moash can be redeemed, then Kaladin might jump between Dalinar and Moash, stopping Dalinar from killing Moash, which would mean breaking the deal as a third party intervened in the contest.

 

2 hours ago, Master Silver said:

There is always the chance that Taravangian convinces Dainar he already won. Rayse and Taravangian have distinctly different motivations. Taravagian ultimately sided with Odium because he though that was the best they could do. Save one city of humanity with all of the knowledge they had amassed. He essentially was trying to create a Uritheru. Rayse said he would have to destroy the world in order to not leave his investiture behind. Taravangian said he was going to "save them all." It is a matter of what mankind's existence looks like. 

Unlikely. Taravangian's thoughts after his Ascension were "nobody knows I've Ascended, nobody knows I'm Odium, I'm free to plan." Base on that I don't think he will reveal himself  to Dalinar, because:

1. he dislikes Rayse's terms of the contests,
2. he had found a loophole already,
3. his goals are much greater now, he wants to save Cosmere from foolish and chaotic rule of others.

RoW ch 114:

Quote

Beside him, the assassin had found a burned-out corpse, mostly eaten by the sword’s attack. [...]
They think that’s me, Taravangian thought, reading the possible futures. [...]
They thought him dead. He was free.…
Free to destroy! To burn! To wreak havoc and terror upon those who had doubted him!
No. No, free to plan. To devise a way to save the world from itself. He could see so far! See so much! He needed to think.
To burn!
No, to plot!
[...]
But … beyond that, what of the entire cosmere? He couldn’t see that far yet. Perhaps he would eventually be able to. But he did know his predecessor’s plans, and had access to some of his knowledge. So Taravangian knew the cosmere was in chaos. Ruled by fools. Presided over by broken gods.
[...]
There was so much to do. He sorted through Odium’s previous plans and saw all their flaws. How had he let himself be maneuvered into this particular deal with Dalinar? How had he let himself rely so much upon a contest of champions? Didn’t he know? The way to win was to make sure that, no matter the outcome, you were satisfied. Odium should never have entered a deal he could not absolutely control.
It can still be done, Taravangian realized, seeing the possibilities—so subtle—that his predecessor had missed. Yes … Dalinar has set himself up … to fail. I can beat him.
[...]
And now, Taravangian was going to save them all.

 

Edited December 28, 2023 by alder24

[+Oltux72 he/him]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

The most preferable outcome for Odium is to make Dalinar break the deal, freeing Odium from Honor and Roshar. It's not about choosing the best champion, it's about choosing the one that Dalinar will refuse to fight, or doing something preventing Dalinar's champion from participating in the contest (without harming them). Odium might also choose somebody that would make a Dalinar’s party intervene to stop them from being killed, meaning Dalinar has broken the terms and the deal is void. That’s what Odium needs to do the most, force Dalinar to break the contract, not just kill Honor's champion.

True. However, even if he cannot get that, even a continuation of the war would be preferable to a win  So let us be comprehensive. Taravangian's preferences in order of decreasing desirability ought to be:

1. Dalinar breaks the treaty.
2. They come to an agreement more favorable to both sides to call the contest off.
3. Neither a win or a loss
4. Odium wins
5. Dalinar wins
6. Odium breaks the contract

If you list the outcomes like that, it creates perverse consequences and incentives. In particular, if Dalinar were to face his nephew and cannot bring himself to kill him (would you depend on that if you were Odium?), Dalinar should kill himself. And that is the issue I see with child champion theories.

Hence it seems to me that Taravangian will aim for outcome #3. However, I may be wrong. In particular, he may have found a way to guarantee outcome #3. If that is the case, Taravangian ought to demonstrate that and Dalinar should call the whole thing off.

If I were Taravangian I would offer Dalinar to return all of Roshar against a release from the duell. Rayse thought that he could not leave Roshar behind. Taravangian need not necessarily hold that oppinion.

[The Stick77]

To everyone suggesting child champions does it not have to be a willing champion? I mean I get where the theory comes from but I feel like it’s relatively unlikely that could happen easily. Plus we’ve already gotten a glimpse of the champion having 9 surges in Oathbringer so that lends further credibility to it being something else. As for who I suppose Moash is possible but the Gavilar theory is my personal favorite.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

On 12/31/2023 at 5:02 AM, The Stick77 said:

To everyone suggesting child champions does it not have to be a willing champion?

It does have to be a willing champion.

We may also look at a piece of foreshadowing. Do you remember the story Hoid tells about the game where one of the participants had only concentrated on not losing as opposed to winning?

[aetherbound he/him]

Szeth v Gavilar

[Master Silver]

23 hours ago, Aetherbound said:

Szeth v Gavilar

Might be a neat rematch, but location would be the issue with this. Gavilar currently resides in the beyond. Szeth will be in Shinovar. Besides Szeth is and remains the better warrior.