What Dalinar was looking for?

[+Oltux72 he/him]

Why is Dalinar still talking about finding Ishar? I don't get the plan behind it. Ten days in which

• they need to find him
• they need to cure him
• they need to learn what he has to teach
• they have to train to use that knowledge in combat

That is not doable. So what is the point in preparing Kaladin for a new mission right now, after what that man has just been through?

[Eingradd]

Dalinar still believes that the best way for him to learn more about being a Bondsmith (because the Stormfather has proven himself to be beyond useless in RoW and Tanavast isn't around) is to convince Ishar to join him. I doubt very much that he and Navani are going to sit around Urithiru the entire time waiting for Kaladin and Szeth to bring back Ishar, and part 1 of Book 5 will probably revolve more around them exploring options with the Sibling as a new source of information.

 

Also, Dalinar begins to say, before Kaladin cuts him off, that it was a bad idea to remove Kaladin from the line of duty. Thing is, I think both of them are right in a sense; near the beginning of RoW Kaladin goes into a depression worse than any we've seen from him and it stems from not being able to be a solider boy. I think Dalinar recognizes that removing him from duty did more to Kaladin's mental state than it helped, but we'll never know if him remaining as a surgeon would open up pathways to fully heal him (or get as close to healed as possible with something like depression). Dalinar probably thinks (and I agree) that the best thing for Kaladin is a job like this; where he's not protecting a group of people but is instead needed to retrieve someone, and where he will very likely have to enter combat. I've always thought that combat is to Kaladin what drawing is to Shallan. It's partly a coping mechanism, and partly something they love.

[Ramona Tehradin she/her]

8 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Why is Dalinar still talking about finding Ishar? I don't get the plan behind it. Ten days in which

• they need to find him
• they need to cure him
• they need to learn what he has to teach
• they have to train to use that knowledge in combat

That is not doable. So what is the point in preparing Kaladin for a new mission right now, after what that man has just been through?

I think there's a lot about Ishar, Heralds and Oathpact which has been kept in dark. Here are some things I pondered after reading and possibly would be needed for book 5. 

• Ishar is a Bondsmith Unchained but I don't think he's the oldest and most experienced Bondsmith in Rosharan system. IIRC, Radiants were already present in Ashyn and because of overutilization/castastrophic power execution led to its destruction which made Heralds to come to Roshar along with human contigent. I haven't seen Ash giving any information about Ashyn because she is not from Ashyn. She's the only Herald who's born and made in Roshar so we know nothing about Expulsion and what actually went down in first human homeworld. Jezrien's dead, Nale is enemy, Kelek may/may not give some intel but I hardly see Shallan and Adolin reaching back from Shadesmar within ten days, Battar/Pailah/Vedel/Chana are heaven forbid which side and where- I know B and P are in Kharbranth but Dalinar won't send in armies to retrieve them from a neutral nation. Taln is indisposed....so that leaves Ishar who is perhaps the only Herald willing to give real information about what the heck happened in first place! 
• A lot of Bonsmith's powers are unknown...actually a lot about Radiant powers are also unknown (looking at you Kaladin) so Ishar is the only guy who know how to deal things. And he says he can loop around Oathpact which can bind Odium back. 
• They have to find Ishar because he said to be found so that he can implicate the Oathpact and provide some insights about Contest of Champions. I think this contest has happened before which was why it was suggested in first place. 
• They don't have to cure him because its impossible to 'cure' a 7 thousand year old raving herald in 9 days and 23 hours...what's important is, Kaladin are Szeth are going to Shinovar because Ishar specifically said 'When a Radiant would speak Ideals near him, it will grant him temporary lucidity as the Radiant taps directly to Spiritial Realm' And...we know cleansing Shinovar is jounrey of Szeth's 4th Ideal and sending Kal with him is a clever piece of decision made. 

I think after whatever happened in RoW, Kaladin is 'prepared' to face everything. Remember what Dalinar one spoke, a soldier does not choose his/her battleground but fight will come and they have to always expect it. Kaladin is the best soldier they have and despite Dalinar's words, he's their best fighter. Even half without his powers, Kal's unstoppable and the best part is, his assertion and dissection of situation is brilliant. His thought-processing ability is faster than anyone as we saw him battling Pursuer and sneaking around occupation laden Urithiru. If anyone can sneak in and grab this Ishar, then its Kaladin. Not Shallan, Not a spy but Kaladin. 

Also, about Oathpact. So...Jezrien's dead and he's Patron of Windrunners. And Kaladin is going to Ishar...so, you can connect the obvious plot for book 5 here.

 

Kaladin has not healed completely. He may never as well but he has taken the right path towards mending his fractured soul. That's Journey before Destination card for you.  

 

Edited November 26, 2020 by Ramona Tehradin

[Subvisual Haze]

Dalinar's a fool and caved to high pressure sales tactics.  I don't care how good the deal from the god seems, you give yourself a night to sleep on it before you finalize the deal.

[Eingradd]

4 minutes ago, Subvisual Haze said:

Dalinar's a fool and caved to high pressure sales tactics.  I don't care how good the deal from the god seems, you give yourself a night to sleep on it before you finalize the deal.

He was worried that, if he didn't trap Odium in a deal right then and there, he would depart and wouldn't come back for another few years, and the Radiants are demonstrably losing the war, even moreso with the technological developments Navani gave to the enemy. I agree that it would be foolish to not consult with others and/or think about it, but Dalinar didn't have that luxury since he is dependent on Odium approaching him, and the entire team still thinks the only way to beat Odium was to trap him into a contest of champions. That has been what the Stormfather has been telling him (and I think Tanavast told him the same in his final vision), and Wit reinforces the idea.

Edited November 26, 2020 by Eingradd
Changed some spelling and word issues.

[Kitch]

This is a big reason why I instantly did not like the 10-day plot point being dropped at the end of the book with it's very specific terms.

From a readers perspective, we know that something else is going to intervene, mainly because of we know there are going to be 5 additional books. This isn't the climax for the series. 

 

From a character perspective though, as far as they know that *is* the climax. The terms have been set and the end game has been decided. How to deal with the singers, how to deal with Odium, how to divide up the land....all going to be done in 10 days. So from their point of view, a lot of their problems are going to be decided in 10 days. Whatever pending tasks they had left all of a sudden don't matter

 

Honorspren/ink spren joining the fight? Too late.

Willshapers and spren bonding singers again? Doesn't matter, there won't be any fighting in 10 days.

Figuring out bondsmith powers to do more....bonding? Why even bother....Dalinar is going to have a duel in 10 days and afterwards there's no more war.

 

The fact that now all characters know that things are done in 10 days just doesn't sit well with me. Any actions they are taking towards the war effort in those 10 days are just going to feel hollow and forced for the readers sake. 

 

I mean...even sending Szeth into Shinovar doesn't make sense since after the 10 days, Szeth intervening in Odiums territory will be a breach of terms. 

Edited November 26, 2020 by Kitch

[Ramona Tehradin she/her]

25 minutes ago, Kitch said:

I mean...even sending Szeth into Shinovar doesn't make sense since after the 10 days, Szeth intervening in Odiums territory will be a breach of terms. 

Shinovar is neutral nation during True Desolation.

[DiePie]

1 hour ago, Kitch said:

This is a big reason why I instantly did not like the 10-day plot point being dropped at the end of the book with it's very specific terms.

From a readers perspective, we know that something else is going to intervene, mainly because of we know there are going to be 5 additional books. This isn't the climax for the series.

There is no garuntee that the duel will only last a day, while normal duels with shardplate/blade seem to last upwards of a few hours, and that was without storm light to heal one’s self. The fact that Dalinar is planning on choosing himself as the champion seems to indicate that he has some distinct advantage over, say, Kaladin or Szeth who (now that they have their plate) are probably the best fighters Dalinar can reliably get. That leads me to beleive that this will be no ordinary duel, but will instead have much more to do with Dalinar’s powers as a Bondsmith (which is why he wants Ishar to teach him - and I would like to point out that there is no stipulation that Ishtar can’t teach him during the duel, coaching Dalinar through more complex motions). Assuming the duel will happen in this way, Todd will probably appoint a champion that can match Dalinar in the amount on investiture they can muster (and if I’m not mistaken) there was a WoB about large amounts of investiture warping space/time in the same way matter does in a black hole, so we may see some form of time warping based on your proximity to the duel, which would allow a lot more to happen in the book to all the other characters during the time the duel is fought (remember what Odium gets to keep under his control in case of a loss is based on what he controls at the end of the duel)

[Ruin's Scariest Koloss]

7 hours ago, Kitch said:

From a readers perspective, we know that something else is going to intervene, mainly because of we know there are going to be 5 additional books. This isn't the climax for the series.

But this is the climax of the story arc. We have to assume most of the tensions introduced so far will be resolved in book five. Sure, not everything will be wrapped up, or what would be the point of five more books, but I don't think there's any reason to believe that there needs to be some major intervention with the contest of champions.

[Ansalem]

2 hours ago, Ruin's Scariest Koloss said:

But this is the climax of the story arc. We have to assume most of the tensions introduced so far will be resolved in book five. Sure, not everything will be wrapped up, or what would be the point of five more books, but I don't think there's any reason to believe that there needs to be some major intervention with the contest of champions.

I agree. There's nothing that says Odium has to still be the main villain by the end of the series. It could very easily be another Shard. There's still Cultivation, and from what little we know about her Shard, assuming she's on the side of civilization in any sense would be a mistake I think. What little help she's provided, assuming it even can be called "help", can very easily be attributed to nothing more than self-preservation. Or imagine Cultivation+Odium combined somehow, which would be a True Nightmare. Defeating Odium in the duel as it's been set up can happen without limiting the potential for the future 5 books.

Just as a wild example, there's good reason to believe Harmony is gonna show up on Roshar in some capacity at some point. Maybe not in full but even just Ironeyes showing up could put a major kink in the plot. Hell it's even feasible Harmony could take on more Shards and end up being the major villain for the second half, but if he does I think he would have to wait for someone else to kill Odium/Cultivation first, the reason for both of those being his current conflicting nature. It's difficult for him to act so he waits for an opportunity and he would take up the other Shards to remove that limitation. He can barely hold a conversation without mentioning his frustration at being chained by his own power. On the flipside I can also see him thinking that Odium and Cultivation would neutralize each other in a similar way to the Shards he already holds and thinking it would be safest if he were to combine them in himself so no one else had to bear the burden, but in my view, not only are Odium and Cultivation not opposites, but Cultivation would actually act more like an amplifier of Odium. Thus Sazed accidentally becoming the Great Evil of the Cosmere.

Again, that's just random thoughts, long winded as they are. I'm just saying there are other possibilities to explore without something necessarily having to actually intervene in the Champions' duel. For that matter, there are already forces sitting on the sidelines looking to profit that we know about for certain, not even counting other Shards.

So for me I think the duel is going to go through and while there definitely will be some twists involved those twists won't be during the duel itself. What I actually expect right now is that either Dalinar will lose or he will win in some way that makes it so Taravangian can claim Cultivation's Shard somehow. Lose by winning the duel, as it were. I can't think of how that could work, but if Brandon can make that happen, holy hell would that be a twist.

I think it's better to think of the main villain not as Odium but as Taravangian.

That kinda got away from me, sorry about that. 

Edited November 27, 2020 by Ansalem

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

2 hours ago, Ansalem said:

I agree. There's nothing that says Odium has to still be the main villain by the end of the series. It could very easily be another Shard. There's still Cultivation, and from what little we know about her Shard, assuming she's on the side of civilization in any sense would be a mistake I think. What little help she's provided, assuming it even can be called "help", can very easily be attributed to nothing more than self-preservation. Or imagine Cultivation+Odium combined somehow, which would be a True Nightmare. Defeating Odium in the duel as it's been set up can happen without limiting the potential for the future 5 books.

Just as a wild example, there's good reason to believe Harmony is gonna show up on Roshar in some capacity at some point. Maybe not in full but even just Ironeyes showing up could put a major kink in the plot. Hell it's even feasible Harmony could take on more Shards and end up being the major villain for the second half, but if he does I think he would have to wait for someone else to kill Odium/Cultivation first, the reason for both of those being his current conflicting nature. It's difficult for him to act so he waits for an opportunity and he would take up the other Shards to remove that limitation. He can barely hold a conversation without mentioning his frustration at being chained by his own power. On the flipside I can also see him thinking that Odium and Cultivation would neutralize each other in a similar way to the Shards he already holds and thinking it would be safest if he were to combine them in himself so no one else had to bear the burden, but in my view, not only are Odium and Cultivation not opposites, but Cultivation would actually act more like an amplifier of Odium. Thus Sazed accidentally becoming the Great Evil of the Cosmere.

Again, that's just random thoughts, long winded as they are. I'm just saying there are other possibilities to explore without something necessarily having to actually intervene in the Champions' duel. For that matter, there are already forces sitting on the sidelines looking to profit that we know about for certain, not even counting other Shards.

So for me I think the duel is going to go through and while there definitely will be some twists involved those twists won't be during the duel itself. What I actually expect right now is that either Dalinar will lose or he will win in some way that makes it so Taravangian can claim Cultivation's Shard somehow. Lose by winning the duel, as it were. I can't think of how that could work, but if Brandon can make that happen, holy hell would that be a twist.

I think it's better to think of the main villain not as Odium but as Taravangian.

That kinda got away from me, sorry about that. 

At this point Kell is more likely to appear than his brother... But things definitely seem to be headed toward a Mistborn/Stormlight collide.

[Rorzikel]

23 hours ago, Ramona Tehradin said:

Ishar is a Bondsmith Unchained but I don't think he's the oldest and most experienced Bondsmith in Rosharan system.

Actually, according to the Stormfather not only is he the oldest Bondsmith in the Rosharan system, he's also the oldest human surgebinder.

Quote

"He cannot bear sole blame for the destruction of Ashyn, humankind’s first home, but he was the one Odium first tricked into experimenting with the Surges."

 

[Ansalem]

47 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

At this point Kell is more likely to appear than his brother... But things definitely seem to be headed toward a Mistborn/Stormlight collide.

Yeah, that's true, but I just wanted to come up with anything plausible real quick. I didn't think about it much beyond that.