5th Oath

[Truthless of Shinovar]

Yes, I know it’s a bit soon and all considering Kaladin said the Words less than a week ago, but what do you guys think his fifth oath is going to be? I’ve really got no idea, do you guys have any thoughts?

[Kered]

My wild guess is that all the 5th Ideals share the same theme. Like the Skybreakers, the 5th ideal for every order will be totally embodying an ideal, ie "Becoming the law". 
 

How that principle would apply to a Windrunner 5th Ideal, no clue. "Becoming protection" doesn't have an obvious parallel. Maybe something along the lines of ." I will protect everyone so long as I am able". Seems a little anti-climatic. 

[Winds Alight]

Maybe it's less all-encompassing than the former ideals.

I'm thinking about Kaladin single-handedly (kinda) founding proper mental health care on Roshar. I could totally see the 5th Ideal somewhere around that? As in "I choose my purpose" or something ... idk.

Also do we know what kind of power-up a 5th Ideal would bring? Blade, Plate - and then? More power?

[Kered]

12 minutes ago, Winds Alight said:

Maybe it's less all-encompassing than the former ideals.

I'm thinking about Kaladin single-handedly (kinda) founding proper mental health care on Roshar. I could totally see the 5th Ideal somewhere around that? As in "I choose my purpose" or something ... idk.

Also do we know what kind of power-up a 5th Ideal would bring? Blade, Plate - and then? More power?

I was thinking about this as I typed my first post. Maybe an overall upgrade? Finer control of the surges, holding stormlight longer/tighter control of stormlight usage(getting more out of a sphere), etc? Idk, I can see Brandon coming up with something unique, though. The mechanics of "living" shardplate have been at the forefront because Brandon was coy with it for the longest. Distracted a bit from what comes after Plate. 

 

[Necessary Eagle]

38 minutes ago, Winds Alight said:

Also do we know what kind of power-up a 5th Ideal would bring? Blade, Plate - and then? More power?

Lets you summon a Ryshadium. *nods sagely*

[Eris]

In first aid, the number one rule is in CPR is to make sure you're not in danger before helping someone else. It would be interesting if the fifth ideal is something that is seen as slightly selfish such as "I will protect myself from danger before I protect others" but I think that fits with the overall tone of RoW and how it is about accepting not everyone can be saved. 

However I don't think an animal to help with battle wouldn't be part of the fifth ideal since it kind of makes the spren redundant as a sapient being. But it could be possible that the fifth ideal gains are different for each order.  

[LuckyJim]

1 hour ago, Kered said:

My wild guess is that all the 5th Ideals share the same theme. Like the Skybreakers, the 5th ideal for every order will be totally embodying an ideal, ie "Becoming the law". 
 

How that principle would apply to a Windrunner 5th Ideal, no clue. "Becoming protection" doesn't have an obvious parallel. Maybe something along the lines of ." I will protect everyone so long as I am able". Seems a little anti-climatic. 

I think thinking about the fifth ideal as "becoming x" is going about it the wrong way. In Szeth's conversation with his highspren, it seems as though swearing the fifth ideal as a Skybreaker means being confident and understanding of justice and law enough that you can make your own decisions without relying on whatever dedication was chosen in the third ideal (which is apparently only meant to be a temporary measure). It's not so much about "becoming law", as it is about becoming a fully actualized Skybreaker.

A clue for what this might mean could come from the divine attributes of each order. For example, Skybreaker attributes are "justice" and "confidence", a fully actualized Skybreaker is confident enough to make their own decisions on what should be done, but is just enough to not abuse the power they gain. If we apply this to Windrunners, who are associated with the attributes "protecting" and "leading", we might get something like "I will lead others so that they can protect themselves".

I think this fits Kaladin, who is frequently an inspiring figure and helps others to stand up and help themselves, rather than pushing them on his own the entire time.

1 hour ago, Winds Alight said:

Maybe it's less all-encompassing than the former ideals.

I'm thinking about Kaladin single-handedly (kinda) founding proper mental health care on Roshar. I could totally see the 5th Ideal somewhere around that? As in "I choose my purpose" or something ... idk.

Also do we know what kind of power-up a 5th Ideal would bring? Blade, Plate - and then? More power?

Personally I don't think the fifth ideal needs a specific power up, being able to get that far is its own reward. If anything, the benefit might be that the bond with the Radiant's spren is so strong that they can't break it without specifically intending too.

[WhiteLeeopard]

48 minutes ago, LuckyJim said:

A clue for what this might mean could come from the divine attributes of each order. For example, Skybreaker attributes are "justice" and "confidence", a fully actualized Skybreaker is confident enough to make their own decisions on what should be done, but is just enough to not abuse the power they gain. If we apply this to Windrunners, who are associated with the attributes "protecting" and "leading", we might get something like "I will lead others so that they can protect themselves".

Something that annoys me a little bit about the direction of Kaladin's SA arc is that while he began showing both attributes (protecting and leading) it has eventually become solely protecting. Which is why in RoW he had to pigeon hole himself into surgeon although the idea didn't thrill him. It can be argued creating mental healthcare is leading in ideas and leading society towards enlightenment, but I'm not sure I see that as truly leading or simply protecting. He did fund the Windrunners, and that was leading, but he has now left that behind. 

Kaladin can inspire people, noble, common, scholars, soldiers etc just by walking by, yet that aspect of him has barely been used since WoR. It makes little sense to me that the Fifth Ideal would be reached without embracing both the major and minor attribute, and yet BS hasn't to my eyes developed Kaladin enough in the leadership direction. All that Kaladin has led by so far was in my opinion from charisma and innate personality, but not learning to lead, much like he has spent 4 books learning to protect.

I had a vague idea before RoW of "becoming honor" (little h), much like the honorspren, which believe that since they are honor what they do is honorable, but that idea has big thorns behind it.

Do we have any WoB or excerpt where any Fifth Ideal KR are mentioned? I can't remember anything straight off, and it could be the number of KR to reach that point was counted in single numbers (maybe double digits max) throughout history, as such not much thought was given to it other than as an ideal. As for the gain, maybe be able to keep Stormlight without leaking like the Fused (or so little as to be negligible)? Kaladin would probably love to be able to float all day. 

[AlejandroTeodoro]

I think that should be something related with leadership, at the end it’s supposed one of the calls of Windrunners is leadership and Jezrien were the King of Heralds so I think there should be something about it.

Something about take the responsibility of Lead  for protect, or Lead when others cannot.

We will see but I think in the next book can happens that Dalinar fall or that he has to be more involved in Unit, not in Leadership. And then will have to come Kaladin to be leader probably after some traumas and internal fights 

Edited November 24, 2020 by AlejandroTeodoro

[Prymalfire]

I think the oath will be related to understanding how the nature of the spren bonded connects to the ideals of the order. For Skybreakers: How does Nobility (My assumption for what Highspren represent), link to Law?

For Windrunners: What is the link between Honor and Protection?

For Lightweavers: How do our lies create our perception of Reality?

etc.

And the understanding allows the Radiant to fully manifest the ideals. Eg. 'I am the Law', and possibly 'I am Protection', 'I am Reality'

[Ailvara]

On 24.11.2020 at 1:29 AM, WhiteLeeopard said:

Something that annoys me a little bit about the direction of Kaladin's SA arc is that while he began showing both attributes (protecting and leading) it has eventually become solely protecting. Which is why in RoW he had to pigeon hole himself into surgeon although the idea didn't thrill him. It can be argued creating mental healthcare is leading in ideas and leading society towards enlightenment, but I'm not sure I see that as truly leading or simply protecting. He did fund the Windrunners, and that was leading, but he has now left that behind. 

Kaladin can inspire people, noble, common, scholars, soldiers etc just by walking by, yet that aspect of him has barely been used since WoR. It makes little sense to me that the Fifth Ideal would be reached without embracing both the major and minor attribute, and yet BS hasn't to my eyes developed Kaladin enough in the leadership direction. All that Kaladin has led by so far was in my opinion from charisma and innate personality, but not learning to lead, much like he has spent 4 books learning to protect.

So much this. There were some elements of it in RoW, but he was more of an icon, like some Superman, than a leader. Bridge Four has moved on and left a void behind, making it almost seem like his best time for leadership is, for now, behind him. And by "for now" I mean, "for a while". Both that quest to Shinovar and the little time left don't leave much room for his further development in this area. We can only assume his arc won't done in book 5, I guess? But then, with Jezrien dead and Kaladin going to Ishar who implied he could restore the Oathpact, the implications seem obvious - maybe too obvious, but if that's where it's going, I think he's not nearly ready for that.

[Bri-Y]

On 11/23/2020 at 6:29 PM, LuckyJim said:

I think thinking about the fifth ideal as "becoming x" is going about it the wrong way. In Szeth's conversation with his highspren, it seems as though swearing the fifth ideal as a Skybreaker means being confident and understanding of justice and law enough that you can make your own decisions without relying on whatever dedication was chosen in the third ideal (which is apparently only meant to be a temporary measure). It's not so much about "becoming law", as it is about becoming a fully actualized Skybreaker.

A clue for what this might mean could come from the divine attributes of each order. For example, Skybreaker attributes are "justice" and "confidence", a fully actualized Skybreaker is confident enough to make their own decisions on what should be done, but is just enough to not abuse the power they gain. If we apply this to Windrunners, who are associated with the attributes "protecting" and "leading", we might get something like "I will lead others so that they can protect themselves".

I think this fits Kaladin, who is frequently an inspiring figure and helps others to stand up and help themselves, rather than pushing them on his own the entire time.

Personally I don't think the fifth ideal needs a specific power up, being able to get that far is its own reward. If anything, the benefit might be that the bond with the Radiant's spren is so strong that they can't break it without specifically intending too.

I agree with the ideal idea, though maybe it will also be about accepting protection from others. In terms of powers, I think it won’t be a personal power-up, but something squad or order based. Something that helps the radiant lend their strength to others, or allows others to share their strength together, becoming stronger as a group than they ever could individually.

It would tie in nicely with the power of bonds that windrunners share with bondsmiths.