The contest of Champions

[Bearer of all agonies he/him]

Like most of you, the second RoW arrived, I sat down and started reading. I was very suprised at the ending, and really happy. But I have one question. Since Taravangian took Odiums place, will he have to fight Dalinar in a contest of Champions? Or will Dalinar still have to fight Odium? Thoughts?

[+HoidIsAwesome he/him]

Todd is definitely bound by the rules of the contest (as evidenced by his questioning of Hoid in the Epilogue). Though it looks like he has found some loophole (which is discussed on other threads here)

[+robardin he/him]

8 hours ago, HoidIsAwesome said:

Todd is definitely bound by the rules of the contest (as evidenced by his questioning of Hoid in the Epilogue). Though it looks like he has found some loophole (which is discussed on other threads here)

Rayse: "When you have an agreement with me, I will honor it in spirit and not only in word."

Taravangian: "Hi. I'm the new Odium!"

[ftl]

On 11/18/2020 at 9:29 AM, Bearer of all agonies said:

Like most of you, the second RoW arrived, I sat down and started reading. I was very suprised at the ending, and really happy. But I have one question. Since Taravangian took Odiums place, will he have to fight Dalinar in a contest of Champions? Or will Dalinar still have to fight Odium? Thoughts?

Taravangian took Rayse's place as the Vessel of Odium. The shard Odium is still there and unchanged, just a different person guiding it (and/or being its powerless figurehead?)

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

2 hours ago, ftl said:

Taravangian took Rayse's place as the Vessel of Odium. The shard Odium is still there and unchanged, just a different person guiding it (and/or being its powerless figurehead?)

Hardly powerless, especially when newly Ascended.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

On 18.11.2020 at 6:37 PM, HoidIsAwesome said:

Todd is definitely bound by the rules of the contest (as evidenced by his questioning of Hoid in the Epilogue). Though it looks like he has found some loophole (which is discussed on other threads here)

Are they both bound as a couple? That is, if they both agreed to cancel the contest, could they?

[+HoidIsAwesome he/him]

9 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Are they both bound as a couple? That is, if they both agreed to cancel the contest, could they?

Good question. I don't think we know definitively but maybe? Agreements between shards seems to have special significance though so there definitely needs to be some formality to the procedure. We can only speculate at this point...

[Blacksmithki]

Something i am very very curious about is whether or not a champion actually needs to be willing to fight, or if Rayse was simply playing entirely to win. This would allow for some brutal backup plans if he can't find a good champion in time.

Taravangian wants to make sure that he wins no matter what happens in the duel and i can think of a few terrible ways this might happen.

1. If Taravangian thinks he has an advantage, what if he just chooses someone who cannot really die? The armies have no truce, only neither side can interfere with the combatants. This would allow for the battles to continue despite the duel being set at 10 days.

2. Even if Taravangian loses, there are still 2 main problems. first, there's still the insane fuzed armies that need to be fought. second, Odium may be able to draw in a threat from another world using his agents.

So what if he could manage to absolutely shatter the spirit of the alliance in his defeat? If he could make them fall apart he still wins the war despite loosing the battle.

We already know that pretty much everyone looks up to Kaladin. What an absolutely sadistically evil twist would it be if he was chosen as Odium's champion and had to decide whether to fight for Odium or to die for the sake of the world. This might well completely shatter the spirits of so many people, and the time between the first and second halves (books 5 and 6) could be trying to prepare for a new threat from offworld, a perfect cycle of what happened with the humans.

Until we get an explicit statement that the champion must be willing to fight, i will remain terrified that one of these two things may well be the backup plan of Taravangian.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

32 minutes ago, Blacksmithki said:

Something i am very very curious about is whether or not a champion actually needs to be willing to fight, or if Rayse was simply playing entirely to win. This would allow for some brutal backup plans if he can't find a good champion in time.

He wants out of that duell or render it moot, not win it. Taravangian considers it a mistake.

32 minutes ago, Blacksmithki said:

Taravangian wants to make sure that he wins no matter what happens in the duel and i can think of a few terrible ways this might happen.

1. If Taravangian thinks he has an advantage, what if he just chooses someone who cannot really die? The armies have no truce, only neither side can interfere with the combatants. This would allow for the battles to continue despite the duel being set at 10 days.

Insanely risky. The other side's champion could choose suicide.

32 minutes ago, Blacksmithki said:

2. Even if Taravangian loses, there are still 2 main problems. first, there's still the insane fuzed armies that need to be fought. second, Odium may be able to draw in a threat from another world using his agents.

To destroy the world he would be confined to?

32 minutes ago, Blacksmithki said:

So what if he could manage to absolutely shatter the spirit of the alliance in his defeat? If he could make them fall apart he still wins the war despite loosing the battle.

He does not care. The alliance is a roadblock, not an enemy.

 

[Blacksmithki]

2 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

He wants out of that duell or render it moot, not win it. Taravangian considers it a mistake.

Insanely risky. The other side's champion could choose suicide.

To destroy the world he would be confined to?

He does not care. The alliance is a roadblock, not an enemy.

 

1. Winning the duel is still pretty much the next best thing to a perfect result for him.

2. Then he wins. That's even better then just an unending duel.

3. The humans didn't exactly destroy the world when they arrived (Roshar not Ashyn). it would be more of a solid circle back to where everything started.

4. We don't exactly know his plans, but it was definitely an enemy to Rayse. It was the main thing holding him back from his goals, and it'll definitely be resisting Odium whoever holds it.

[jamskinner]

On 11/18/2020 at 7:08 PM, robardin said:

Rayse: "When you have an agreement with me, I will honor it in spirit and not only in word."

Taravangian: "Hi. I'm the new Odium!"

Could lead to his death by trying to wiggle out of it. 

[+robardin he/him]

18 hours ago, Blacksmithki said:

Something i am very very curious about is whether or not a champion actually needs to be willing to fight, or if Rayse was simply playing entirely to win. This would allow for some brutal backup plans if he can't find a good champion in time.

Yeah, the “suckling babe” theory. We've always wondered what that Death Rattle was about.

Though those rattles came before Rayse got shivved with Nightblood, he sure didn't see that coming, so maybe that particular prophetic vision is off-track now?

[+Bliev she/her]

I see the “willing champion” part doesn’t come in the final words they speak to one another, just earlier. I had misremembered that. 
 

But Rayse had already identified his champion before he made this offer.  So we have two questions: who had Rayse identified and what loophole did Taravangian see that Rayse could not?

[AerionBFII he/him]

Oldium seems far more capable than Rayse was. I think this was simply due to the fact his personality has been mostly eroded by the shards intent. 
 

I think Oldium will chose El? L? (I’m an audiobook listener) as their champion against Dalinar. 
 

Im a little disappointed that Kal won’t be champion but I think he may end up replacing Honor/Tanavast in the end. 
 

He’s already got a cult and no significant other (RIP Jasnah shippers) and I think he’s the personification of Honor by the end of this book. 

Edited November 21, 2020 by AerionBFII

[Bearer of all agonies he/him]

4 hours ago, robardin said:

Yeah, the “suckling babe” theory. We've always wondered what that Death Rattle was about.

Though those rattles came before Rayse got shivved with Nightblood, he sure didn't see that coming, so maybe that particular prophetic vision is off-track now?

Yeah. Also, does Taravangian actually want to fight Dalinar? If not, then that really sucks because Taravangian completed his goal. Well, almost. 

59 minutes ago, AerionBFII said:

Oldium seems far more capable than Rayse was. I think this was simply due to the fact his personality has been mostly eroded by the shards intent. 
 

I think Oldium will chose El? L? (I’m an audiobook listener) as their champion against Dalinar. 
 

Im a little disappointed that Kal won’t be champion but I think he may end up replacing Honor/Tanavast in the end. 
 

He’s already got a cult and no significant other (RIP Jasnah shippers) and I think he’s the personification of Honor by the end of this book. 

Yeah, this could totally work. 

[+Child of Hodor]

How about this: Taravangian appoints a baby as champion. It's to the death so it will go until one of them dies and Dalinar won't kill the baby. The baby is significantly younger than Dalinar so he'll die of old age first.

This would fulfill the death rattle of a person thinking about killing a baby to save the world and fits into the argument Taravangian and Dalinar had where Taravangian was willing to execute innocent men to protect the kingdom and Dalinar was not. Taravangian is counting on Dalinar not killing the baby. 

BUT!  Ishar almost stole Dalinar's status as Odium's opponent using Bondsmith powers. Dalinar can take the status of champion from the baby, give it to someone else and kill them instead. Either someone else or to himself and he kills himself and it's a draw with Odium stuck in the system.  

OR

Double-switcheroo: Dalinar takes the status of Odium's champion and gives the baby status as Dalinar's champion. Dalinar kills himself baby wins, Taravangian loses. 

[Bearer of all agonies he/him]

8 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

How about this: Taravangian appoints a baby as champion. It's to the death so it will go until one of them dies and Dalinar won't kill the baby. The baby is significantly younger than Dalinar so he'll die of old age first.

This would fulfill the death rattle of a person thinking about killing a baby to save the world and fits into the argument Taravangian and Dalinar had where Taravangian was willing to execute innocent men to protect the kingdom and Dalinar was not. Taravangian is counting on Dalinar not killing the baby. 

BUT!  Ishar almost stole Dalinar's status as Odium's opponent using Bondsmith powers. Dalinar can take the status of champion from the baby, give it to someone else and kill them instead. Either someone else or to himself and he kills himself and it's a draw with Odium stuck in the system.  

OR

Double-switcheroo: Dalinar takes the status of Odium's champion and gives the baby status as Dalinar's champion. Dalinar kills himself baby wins, Taravangian loses. 

Wow. That’s very interesting. I love that idea, btw. That’s would totally be an awesome twist ending!