What is Tukar up to as God King of Emul?

[+robardin he/him]

In Chapter 17, we see "the Mink" analyzing Team Dalinar's forces in Emul in a tight conflict with the Voidbringers there:

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Azish armies, with the help of Alethi strategists, had recaptured some ground in northern Emul. However, they didn’t dare advance too far, as the wildcard of the region might come into play if they reached the south. Nestled behind Odium’s forces was the army of Tezim, the god-priest. A man they now knew was Ishar, the ancient Herald gone mad.

Tezim had been quiet lately, unfortunately. Dalinar had hoped he would rage against the rear lines of the singers, forcing them to fight pressed between two armies. As it stood, the brutal fighting in Emul continued at a standstill.

 

And his conclusion:

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The Mink stopped in Azir, then pointed toward the fighting in Emul. “Here, you have the enemy pinned between you and a rival force. They’re using those Skybreakers to distract you from how exposed they are here. Your enemy is landlocked, with serious supply troubles, isolated from its allies in Iri and Alethkar. You want a big offensive that has a chance to work? Reclaim Emul, push the Voidbringers—the singers—out of Makabak.

“You need to consolidate, focus on where the enemy is weakest. You do not need to smash your armies into the most fortified enemy position in a reckless attempt to satisfy your wounded Alethi pride. That is the truth.”

This is relying heavily on Tezim being, if not an ally, at least one that would push back against any Voidbringer pressure on their border with Emul.

Earlier in Oathbringer, at the moment when they got "Tezim's" reply to join their coalition and the Stormfather revealed that Tezim was none other than Ishar, "Herald of Luck", had been leading the Tukari in "waging war" in conquest against the Emuli.

But now that Emul was a batteground between the Voidbringers and the Radiants, he has... Pulled back to the former borders and "been quiet?"

After all, per the SF, "He curses me at night, even as he names himself a god. He seeks death. His own. Perhaps that of every man."

Aside from the fact that Taravangian has apparently just succeeded in getting both Dalinar and Jasnah out of Urithiru via this assault in Emul, where Urithiru is the "real objective" for Team Odium - it doesn't feel like even on the ground in Emul that things will go as Dalinar and Co. might hope.

I've got a bad feeling about this.

[Nathrangking he/him]

10 minutes ago, robardin said:

In Chapter 17, we see "the Mink" analyzing Team Dalinar's forces in Emul in a tight conflict with the Voidbringers there:

And his conclusion:

This is relying heavily on Tezim being, if not an ally, at least one that would push back against any Voidbringer pressure on their border with Emul.

Earlier in Oathbringer, at the moment when they got "Tezim's" reply to join their coalition and the Stormfather revealed that Tezim was none other than Ishar, "Herald of Luck", had been leading the Tukari in "waging war" in conquest against the Emuli.

But now that Emul was a batteground between the Voidbringers and the Radiants, he has... Pulled back to the former borders and "been quiet?"

After all, per the SF, "He curses me at night, even as he names himself a god. He seeks death. His own. Perhaps that of every man."

Aside from the fact that Taravangian has apparently just succeeded in getting both Dalinar and Jasnah out of Urithiru via this assault in Emul, where Urithiru is the "real objective" for Team Odium - it doesn't feel like even on the ground in Emul that things will go as Dalinar and Co. might hope.

I've got a bad feeling about this.

You are not wrong. With Ishar and Nale being allied in some way no action is likely to come from him. He is probably just protecting the rear and keeping his own lands intact. 

[Karger he/him]

Ishar is easily the most dangerous of the Heralds.  Not just because of his personal capabilities but because of just how unpredictable he is.  What he is doing and why I have absolutely no idea.

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

I’d argue he’s being smart. Why waste his forces? Let Emul and the Singers battle it out, then sweep in and claim the spoils from the weary victor. All he needs to do is defend his own borders and be patient.

[Kered he/him]

I think it's basically going to be a "slave to his madness" thing. A few moments of lucidity, maybe. Which would be him cursing the Stormfather and begging for death. But mostly him just thinking he's the best possible leader on Roshar to the point, obviously, of insanity. 

 

Or

It's a lot like this. 

Spoiler

 

Edited November 11, 2020 by Kered

[Leuthie]

Dalinar and Jasnah would join the forces of whatever they decided to attack, so Taravangian supporting the attack on Emul isn't really about removing forces from Urithiru. There's something else.

Regarding Ishar: I don't think we can suss out what his plan is. He's insane.

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

Someday I will figure out why people think psychotics can’t plan or think logically. Within the context of their madness they can be very sane.

For example: the psychotic man who believes he’s in love with an actress, and that she will return his fervor if he murders a world leader, is perfectly capable of planning an assassination. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Hinckley_Jr.

It’s entirely possible that Ishar believes himself a god. That doesn’t mean he’s not capable of conceiving a perfectly reasonable, logical, intelligent plan within that context. It’s just that the logic wouldn’t make sense to those outside his perceived reality. But you can definitely see a logical path.

There’s a story that allegedly happened with Milton Erickson. He was introduced to a man who thought he was Jesus. Milton promptly said, “Oh, so you’re a carpenter.”

As this gentleman genuinely believed he was Jesus, he answered in the affirmative. Milton promptly commissioned him. Within a year, the man was out and running a carpentry shop. So long as you didn’t question him about religion, he was perfectly sane. (And yes, he still thought he was Jesus.)

I honestly don’t know if the story is true, but it certainly sounds like Milton Erickson. 
 

And you can definitely  work within the psychosis of some psychotics to achieve better outcomes. Their thought process isn’t nearly as illogical as it may appear. It’s just that their perception of reality is so at odds with ours, that it seems nonsensical. But it really isn’t.

[Leuthie]

24 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Someday I will figure out why people think psychotics can’t plan or think logically. Within the context of their madness they can be very sane.

 

I didn't say he wouldn't be thinking or planning logically, I said trying to guess what he's thinking or planning from a distance isn't really possible. If he walks up to someone and claims to be a particular god, you might have something to build on.

[malendras]

Could it be that the Highstorm made him temporarily lucid when the Stormfather saw him? Taln seemed more lucid when Dalinar opened the perpendicularity, and if a highstorm works similarly, it could have a similar effect.

Of course, it would also mean that he's at his most lucid when he's raving about ending his own life...

[+robardin he/him]

8 hours ago, Debarra said:

Personally I just kinda presumed he was on Odiums side the whole time and the Skybreakers are his armies. He never pulled back.

His main actions that we know of are advising the Heralds to either not help people or basically everything Nale has done. We also know Skybreakers can swear an oath to a person which Nale advices against. I always took the implication to be that he himself made an oath to a person and now regrets it, that person being the sanest of all the Heralds.

 Since they changed sides I believe Adolin also mentions that the Skybreakers have only been observed relatively near Emul. So it would make sense that there is their base of operations.

Yes, this is one of the scenarios I picture as likely... Dalinar and Jasnah lead the coalition forces to "pin the Voidbringers" against Tukar, who then instead are reinforced from that side instead of pinned.

Oh, and then tens of thousands of the human coalition forces from Kharbranth also turn sides.*

And if they are so lucky as to pull out of there and retreat to Urithiru, they find it full of Fused, and their own Radiants powerless there.

I mean, that's got to be what Team Odium is planning to spring. And I really don't see a good way for our guys to avoid it.

 

*Actually, I would think after what happened at Thaylen Fields, unless all of Kharbranth and Jah Keved are "in cahoots" with Taravangian's shift of allegiance, I kind of think they would refuse to side en masse against the Radiants and humanity without a Thrill like effect plus a "you killed our highprince" grudge thing going on like with Sadeas' troops. But of course just pulling them back would be good enough to cause chaos, and ultimately the real goal is to seize Urithiru, not to crush a coalition army in Emul - satisfying though that would be for them.

Edited November 12, 2020 by robardin

[Zelly]

It occurs to me that it is actually pretty sane for him to think he is a god, all things considered. Maybe it's an interesting twist and there's a Emporer's New Clothes/ Taming of the Shrew situation.   It's one thing to think you're a god when you're Joe Normal and no one else thinks you are.  But remember how Ash said the Shin started worshipping her?  If Ishar, detached from reality and with intermittent lucidity, not only has multiple people telling him he's a god but also actually has magical powers, then yeah I could see it be very easy to convince yourself it must be so.

 

I'm also really curious about his level of madness.  Is he is really as frothing-at-the-mouth crazy as his letter to Dalinar makes him sound, or is that just how he speaks from his position as "god-priest". I mean I don't think he's sane one way or another, but I wonder if some of it is heavy handed for show.

Nale and Ash have both referred to Ishar as sort of their wise leader/ go to person for help, which does not sound like crazy god-king.  So have they just not visited him in centuries and haven't realized how much his madness has increased? 

[Kuram]

On 11/12/2020 at 5:09 AM, malendras said:

Could it be that the Highstorm made him temporarily lucid when the Stormfather saw him? Taln seemed more lucid when Dalinar opened the perpendicularity, and if a highstorm works similarly, it could have a similar effect.

Of course, it would also mean that he's at his most lucid when he's raving about ending his own life...

I think it has more to do with how close the spiritual realm was when Dalinar did his thing, rather than just investiture from stormlight.  I think they'd have noticed if Taln was better every highstorm, and it would have been mentioned.

1 hour ago, Zelly said:

Nale and Ash have both referred to Ishar as sort of their wise leader/ go to person for help, which does not sound like crazy god-king.  So have they just not visited him in centuries and haven't realized how much his madness has increased? 

Didn't Nale visit Ishar either after Edgedancer or during OB?

Edited November 13, 2020 by Kuram