Can we talk about The Lopen?

[+mdross81 he/him]

I’ve never been a Lopen-hater. But I have always understood why he would grate on some people.

What Brandon pulled off with him in this story was amazing. I saw where it was going right before it happened that Huio would essentially be the stand in for all of the people who are exasperated by the Lopen and it gave me chills. 
 

Then, to top it off, the Lopen acknowledges that by loving himself so much, he’s essentially acting as though he hates everyone else. So he vows to protect everyone else from himself via a hilarious convo with the Stormfather. Storming brilliant. 

[Mason Wheeler]

The thing that really interested me was just how utterly different Huio is from Lopen.  Very down-to-earth and even scholarly, a huge contrast from his jovial, goofy cousin.  I liked that a lot.  But I also really liked seeing Lopen in action.  His dive into the sea to save the sailor who went overboard, and then his use of his Surgebinding to help the captain keep a firm footing, it shows that even though he may come across as "the class clown" of Bridge Four, when the pressure's on he's still got the heart and soul of a true Windrunner.

[*{kara}* she/her]

I’m still a bit confused by what Huio’s 3rd ideal was, exactly. Could someone spell it out for me? Thanks

[Mason Wheeler]

11 minutes ago, *{kara}* said:

I’m still a bit confused by what Huio’s 3rd ideal was, exactly. Could someone spell it out for me? Thanks

We aren't told, but Brandon has said that most of them are going to be generally the same and he's not going to waste our time showing oaths that we've already seen, so when we do see a repeat, it will be a notable variation of some kind.

Therefore, we can safely conclude that Huio's 3rd ideal was most likely basically the same as Kaladin's.

[*{kara}* she/her]

But who does Huio hate if he doesn’t *exactly* hate the Lopen? And where does Huio’s hatred come from

[+mje89]

To me Lopen comes off as a bit of a bully. Not that he means to but he is the kind of guy that really doesn't consider other people when he messes about.

I loved that Huio kind of call him out on it by how he swears the oath. It is very much implied but he overcomes his dislike (rational or not) of Lopin.

I loved how this gives Lopen a chance to look at himself and become a better person.

[agrabes]

I dunno - just finished reading Dawnshard and I'd say Lopen is still annoying as ever.  Nice that he's recognized he is annoying.  But he's not changing.  Maybe slightly toning down his lame humor, but not changing. 

What I thought was good was that his arc showed that just saying the words of an Ideal without truly meaning them is not going to grant you the Ideal.  That to achieve an ideal, it has to be meaningful.  The oaths have to be painful and difficult for the Radiant or they don't count.  It's relative.  So just saying he would protect even people he hates isn't enough because with his weird way of thinking he doesn't really hate people.  That Lopen is definitely still an immature oddball who had to recognize that about himself to progress.  And just like Kaladin and Teft and their struggles, he's still going to struggle with being an immature oddball even though he now knows it's hurting him and he's trying to do better.

I think Huio doesn't hate Lopen, he just hates the way Lopen acts.  He knows Lopen is not a bad person, but can't stand the way Lopen does things.  And he's probably thought to himself at different times that he'd be better off if he didn't have to spend all his time around Lopen.  I think in some ways, Huio is probably also jealous of Lopen - Huio seems like a quiet thoughtful guy who has a hard time expressing his true feelings, while Lopen just blurts everything out even it seems to be made up garbage most of the time.  But when he had that chance to be rid of Lopen, he still saved him even though it probably meant Lopen would act in an even more annoying way toward him.  

 

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

1 hour ago, Mason Wheeler said:

We aren't told, but Brandon has said that most of them are going to be generally the same and he's not going to waste our time showing oaths that we've already seen, so when we do see a repeat, it will be a notable variation of some kind.

Therefore, we can safely conclude that Huio's 3rd ideal was most likely basically the same as Kaladin's.

I think it may have been something like “I will protect even those who hurt me most.” Because he truly doesn’t hate his cousin, but the Lopen has hurt him deeply. So hate doesn’t really make sense, but hurt does.

[+mdross81 he/him]

36 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

I think it may have been something like “I will protect even those who hurt me most.” Because he truly doesn’t hate his cousin, but the Lopen has hurt him deeply. So hate doesn’t really make sense, but hurt does.

I like this interpretation. Seems right to me.

[KandraAllomancer he/him]

6 hours ago, *{kara}* said:

I’m still a bit confused by what Huio’s 3rd ideal was, exactly. Could someone spell it out for me? Thanks

My guess while reading was something akin to "I'll protect even those that annoy the crem out of me"

[Subvisual Haze]

Lopen is entertaining in small doses.  In real life I would find him completely intolerable.  He's lol random monkeycheese and seems to have a strong narcissistic streak.

[scm288]

I suspect, after reading this, that the Third Ideal is less about hatred, per se, and more about not letting yourself get in the way of protecting others--or perhaps, rather, to not let your personal desires stop you from protecting others. As such, selflessness is the key principle of the Third Ideal. I think.

• "I will protect even those I hate, so long as it is right." - Kaladin had to let go of his hatred of others and not allow it to determine his willingness to protect others, even those who arguably didn't deserve his protection, like Elhokar.
• "I will protect even those I hate, even if the one I hate most is myself." - Teft had to let go of his self-hatred, which was spiraling him downwards into self-pity, self-rejection, and self-torment. He had to be able to look outwards and focus on protecting those who need protection, notwithstanding his own failings.
• "I will protect those who hurt me." - Huio had to look past the way in which his cousin aggravates him. We get a small sense of how annoyed he gets by Lopen in this story. Can you imagine having to live with Lopen? For your whole life? There's probably a lot of hurt there that Lopen didn't necessarily mean, but it sounds like it was enough to be an obstacle for Huio to overcome to reject his emotional wounds in order to protect.
• "I will protect others from myself." - Again, it's the self that's getting in the way. Lopen wants to protect but his own personality, the one he's chosen, is getting between him and that ideal.

In each of these, the primary element is not hatred, or some interpretation of hatred, but an interpretation of the character's focus on the self, and the need to set aside that self-centeredness in order to fulfill the Ideal. That Kaladin and Teft's interpretations of it deal with hatred is not endemic to the Third Ideal itself, but are instead manifestations of their strongly hateful character arcs at that point in time.

The point is to give up the self.

Edited November 7, 2020 by scm288
changing 'personal needs' to 'personal desires' as that better encapsulates the point I'm trying to make

[+Child of Hodor]

1 hour ago, Subvisual Haze said:

Lopen is entertaining in small doses.  In real life I would find him completely intolerable.  He's lol random monkeycheese and seems to have a strong narcissistic streak.

Yes, he is not main character material. By the end of the novella I was skimming his POVs, in part to get back to the Dawnshard, but I also was kind of done with his silliness.  I like him better than Wayne though, probably because Lopen generally has fewer POVs. 

[Skybreakdancer]

This exchange is straight outta Mistborn Era 2.  Lopen = Wayne is now my preferred AU

Spoiler

“It’s only a contradiction if you think about it.”

“I . . . I have no response to that.”

“See? You are getting it already. So . . . where would the rich folks have been in this city?”

 

[Subvisual Haze]

9 hours ago, Skybreakdancer said:

This exchange is straight outta Mistborn Era 2.  Lopen = Wayne is now my preferred AU

  Hide contents

“It’s only a contradiction if you think about it.”

“I . . . I have no response to that.”

“See? You are getting it already. So . . . where would the rich folks have been in this city?”

 

Oh there it is.  I knew I had heard the "I have no response to that" line before. I wonder if that was just a missed repetition.

[Personification he/him]

On ‎11‎/‎6‎/‎2020 at 2:06 PM, agrabes said:

I think Huio doesn't hate Lopen, he just hates the way Lopen acts.  He knows Lopen is not a bad person, but can't stand the way Lopen does things.  And he's probably thought to himself at different times that he'd be better off if he didn't have to spend all his time around Lopen.  I think in some ways, Huio is probably also jealous of Lopen - Huio seems like a quiet thoughtful guy who has a hard time expressing his true feelings, while Lopen just blurts everything out even it seems to be made up garbage most of the time.  But when he had that chance to be rid of Lopen, he still saved him even though it probably meant Lopen would act in an even more annoying way toward him.  

 

I think that you are on the right track here, but I think the jealousy is not about Huio being quiet and thoughtful while the Lopen is loud and boisterous. The problem is that Huio is also pretty outgoing and likes to blurt out his cool ideas, but he is terrible with Alethi, so he can't really do so. Bridge 4 spends a lot of time with the scholars, so Huio is a nerd, surrounded by nerds, genuinely curious and bursting with insights about what is around him, and he is unable to share any of it and forced to stay with the soldiers because the only guy who can understand him well is kind of crazy, doesn't care about the same things, and can't be trusted as a translator. Huio isn't really a quiet guy, but the fact that he seems like one is the real tragedy.

[Nathrangking he/him]

22 hours ago, scm288 said:

I suspect, after reading this, that the Third Ideal is less about hatred, per se, and more about not letting yourself get in the way of protecting others--or perhaps, rather, to not let your personal desires stop you from protecting others. As such, selflessness is the key principle of the Third Ideal. I think.

• "I will protect even those I hate, so long as it is right." - Kaladin had to let go of his hatred of others and not allow it to determine his willingness to protect others, even those who arguably didn't deserve his protection, like Elhokar.
• "I will protect even those I hate, even if the one I hate most is myself." - Teft had to let go of his self-hatred, which was spiraling him downwards into self-pity, self-rejection, and self-torment. He had to be able to look outwards and focus on protecting those who need protection, notwithstanding his own failings.
• "I will protect those who hurt me." - Huio had to look past the way in which his cousin aggravates him. We get a small sense of how annoyed he gets by Lopen in this story. Can you imagine having to live with Lopen? For your whole life? There's probably a lot of hurt there that Lopen didn't necessarily mean, but it sounds like it was enough to be an obstacle for Huio to overcome to reject his emotional wounds in order to protect.
• "I will protect others from myself." - Again, it's the self that's getting in the way. Lopen wants to protect but his own personality, the one he's chosen, is getting between him and that ideal.

In each of these, the primary element is not hatred, or some interpretation of hatred, but an interpretation of the character's focus on the self, and the need to set aside that self-centeredness in order to fulfill the Ideal. That Kaladin and Teft's interpretations of it deal with hatred is not endemic to the Third Ideal itself, but are instead manifestations of their strongly hateful character arcs at that point in time.

The point is to give up the self.

Q10fanatic

So, the third ideal of the Windrunners. Is it about protecting those you hate or is it more broadly about going against your instincts/wants in order to protect others better?

Brandon Sanderson

For most people, it's going to go along the hatred lines--but it extends all the way to what you're implying. Mostly, I think of it as, "I'll get rid of my caveats about those I'll protect."

You're likely to see the more extreme examples as I write out the oaths for others, particularly in-scene, as I don't want it to feel too repetitive. But you can assume that for most of the original members of Bridge Four (who are slowly hitting this ideal) that it had to do with agreeing to protect a group that they in some way dislike. (So long as it's right to do so, as defined by themselves and their spren, of course.)

Dawnshard Annotations Reddit Q&A (Nov. 6, 2020)