What are the dawnshards

[Elsecaller_17.5 he/him]

We have a basic idea Rysn tells us they are the "will of a god." The will of adonalasium.  It appears he seperated this power from himself for some reason and it was somehow later turned against him by the vessels. If the Dawnshards were divided from A first and then what was left of A was divided into the 16 shards then a single DS would be way more powerful than a single shard. Thoughts?

Also last post for tonight.  I hope y'all have some great stuff for me tomorrow!

[Eternal Khol he/him]

Well they are obviously Shards.... from before the dawn...

 

im just kiddin

 

lets break down these few sentences

 

“Dawnshards are Commands. The will of a god.”

each Dawnshars is a different Command(Rysn seems to have “Change”) 

These Commands are like... the way Ado viewed/understood things as the being he was

like rysn’s is the way Ado wanted things to change and be better

 

”“The most powerful forms of Surgebinding transcend traditional mortal understanding,”

The most powerful forms of Surgebinding rise above normal, mortal ways of seeing things

 

“All their greatest applications require Intent and a Command.”

to utilize this “godly” surgebinding to its fullest, Intent and a Command are necessary.

 

“Demands on a level no person could ever manage alone” 

doing this was too much for a mortal to manage. As i said he's mortal. Nuff said
 

“To make such Commands, one must have the reasoning—the breadth of understanding—of a deity“

to make such Commands(to use the godly surgebinding), youd need to be able to understand things the way Ado did

 

“And so, the Dawnshards.”

and for mortals to be able to understand/“experience?” things the way Ado did, he made the Dawnshards.

 

“The four primal Commands that created all things”

Pretty self explanatory

 

“And then eventually, they were used to undo Adonalsium itself. . . .”

They were eventually used to Shatter him into 16 pieces
 

 

So, correct me if im wrong, but Ado seems to have created the Dawnshards to be of use to Humans(or people in general. Dont want to limit it to humans) to do some next level surgebinding which they couldn’t possibly hope to perform or even understand without the Dawnshards. And they eventually were used to Shatter him. 
 

Edited November 6, 2020 by Eternal Khol

[Algafix]

11 hours ago, Elsecaller_17.5 said:

If the Dawnshards were divided from A first and then what was left of A was divided into the 16 shards

I'm not sure about this sequence of actions, but I agree in your final theory. The Rysn description of the mural goes like this:

Quote

The peculiar letters were art themselves, curling around the outside of the exploding sun—which was divided into mostly symmetrical pieces. Four of them, each in turn broken into four smaller sections.

What I understant is that the first 4 divisions are related to the Dawnshards, because we know there are 4 of them. Then each one is shattered in 4 pieces what makes a total of 16 shards. But the Dawnshards still exist so I don't know how this second "shattering" was performed. If the Dawnshards are the result of this first shattering then yes, for me they're more powerful than a single shard.

[ScavellTane]

Seems to me that perhaps each 4 Shard maybe tied to one Dawnshard, atleast theme wise.

Edited November 11, 2020 by ScavellTane

[Leuthie]

Let me tell a story:

Adonalsium created. Adonalsium rested. To rest, It laid down Its Power. Powerless, It was found by Its creations and was broken. Its creations used Its pieces to break that Power into pieces small enough for them to carry.

 

So this makes so much sense to me and fits a bit of the Christian creation story: On the 7th day, God rested*. On the 8th day, a bunch of Yolenites stole His Will, broke it, and use the pieces to steal His power.

Now they call the remnants of His Will "Dawnshards" and his Power "Shards".

 

*God rested because his Work was done and his Power was no longer needed.

[Halyo_Alex he/him]

So of course the burning question (in my mind) is what the HECK would happen if an actual Shard (of Ado) picked up a Dawnshard...

...Is this how the end of Stormlight will be unique compared to Mistborn? Dalinar puts Honor and Change together?

[trav]

Gravity: Unite

gravity can not be shielded against and is infinite. it unites everything. eventually.

Electromagnetism: Connect

interaction between anything. also infinite. can repel and can attract.

Strong interaction: Remain/Survive

holds everything together.

Weak interaction: Change

transforms atoms. beta particles can cause mutations.

 

 

I know all of them are quite a stretch :-)

[Dresden_Stormblessed]

@trav, I think you're on to something.

Unity→Honor (X), Dominion (X), Devotion (X), & ?
Change→Endowment, Cultivation, Ruin, & ?
Destroy?→Ambition (X), Autonomy, Odium, & ?
Remain→Preservation, (Wisdom, the one that wants to hide and survive), ? & ?

More on this here

That's my guess after all this theorizing.
 

[Halyo_Alex he/him]

6 hours ago, trav said:

Gravity: Unite

gravity can not be shielded against and is infinite. it unites everything. eventually.

Electromagnetism: Connect

interaction between anything. also infinite. can repel and can attract.

Strong interaction: Remain/Survive

holds everything together.

Weak interaction: Change

transforms atoms. beta particles can cause mutations.

 

 

I know all of them are quite a stretch :-)

Wait.

Gravity... change...

*Furiously checks the Surgebinding Chart*

Gravitation and Transformation are opposites on the chart. ...Rotating it around would put Cohesion and Abrasion as the other two "dawnsurges" if we wanna go down this route...

[Autobrecciation]

If you have 4 commands, and want to combine them, you have 10 unique combinations of two. Using the above example commands:

1. Unite Unite
2. Unite Connect
3. Unite Survive
4. Unite Change
5. Connect Connect
6. Connect Survive
7. Connect Change
8. Survive Survive
9. Survive Change
10. Change Change

I predict the 10 surges arise from combination of 4 Dawnshard command/intents. Could be useful to "reverse engineer" Commands/Intents?

Edited November 12, 2020 by Autobrecciation

[Halyo_Alex he/him]

1 minute ago, Autobrecciation said:

If you have 4 commands, and want to combine them, you have 10 unique combinations of two. Using the above example commands:

1. Unite Unite
2. Unite Connect
3. Unite Survive
4. Unite Change
5. Connect Connect
6. Connect Survive
7. Connect Change
8. Survive Survive
9. Survive Change
10. Change Change

I predict the 10 surges arise from combination of 4 Dawnshard command/intents. Could be useful to datamine intents?

...Wait, no, wouldn't you be able to have 16 combinations? Say, splitting Adonalsium into 4 pieces, then those pieces into 4 again...

Ah, right, you specified UNIQUE combinations. But what if we instead stipulate that the order of Commands matters...

1. Unite > Unite
2. Unite > Change
3. Unite > Survive
4. Unite > Connect
5. Change > Change
6. Change > Unite
7. Change > Survive
8. Change > Connect
9. Survive > Survive
10. Survive > Change
11. Survive > Unite
12. Survive > Connect
13. Connect > Connect
14. Connect > Unite
15. Connect > Change
16. Connect > Survive

Yep. 16 pairs.

The reason this might be applicable is that this would let us categorize the shards like, say... Cultivation being Change > Survive. She's the Survival Shard (ha) of the Change Quadrant of Shards. Cultivation: Changing something for its Survival.

As for why Survive > Change isn't the same, well... Surviving to Change something doesn't quite have the same end result. The Shard would want to persist in order to keep changing things. ...Hm, Ruin?

So we may be able to deduce the remaining unknown Shard Intents based on these pairs of Commands.

[spitfireky she/her]

10 minutes ago, Halyo_Alex said:

...Wait, no, wouldn't you be able to have 16 combinations? Say, splitting Adonalsium into 4 pieces, then those pieces into 4 again...

Ah, right, you specified UNIQUE combinations. But what if we instead stipulate that the order of Commands matters...

1. Unite > Unite
2. Unite > Change
3. Unite > Survive
4. Unite > Connect
5. Change > Change
6. Change > Unite
7. Change > Survive
8. Change > Connect
9. Survive > Survive
10. Survive > Change
11. Survive > Unite
12. Survive > Connect
13. Connect > Connect
14. Connect > Unite
15. Connect > Change
16. Connect > Survive

Yep. 16 pairs.

The reason this might be applicable is that this would let us categorize the shards like, say... Cultivation being Change > Survive. She's the Survival Shard (ha) of the Change Quadrant of Shards. Cultivation: Changing something for its Survival.

As for why Survive > Change isn't the same, well... Surviving to Change something doesn't quite have the same end result. The Shard would want to persist in order to keep changing things. ...Hm, Ruin?

So we may be able to deduce the remaining unknown Shard Intents based on these pairs of Commands.

I like the idea that Cultivation is an application of the Survival Shard within the Change Shard. Going off of that logic would some other ones be maybe Devotion (Survive>Connect) and Dominion (Unite>Survive)? However, I don't know about Unite and Connect as being two distinct Dawnshards because they seem too similar to me. Maybe one is under the umbrella of the other?

[Halyo_Alex he/him]

4 minutes ago, spitfireky said:

I like the idea that Cultivation is an application of the Survival Shard within the Change Shard. Going off of that logic would some other ones be maybe Devotion (Survive>Connect) and Dominion (Unite>Survive)? However, I don't know about Unite and Connect as being two distinct Dawnshards because they seem too similar to me. Maybe one is under the umbrella of the other?

Honestly, I agree about Connect and Unite being very similar. I want to say there's a Destroy Dawnshard as a counterpart to Survive, maybe? Hmm... but that gets too close to Ruin specifically without needing a second Command...

[Autobrecciation]

My guesses for the Dawnshard commands are:

Change

Persist

Perceive

Unite

I feel like change covers both growth and decay. Thinking about the Dawnshards as the tools Ado used to create the universe, I like Change as kind of this constant movement towards entropy. Persist comes from me imagining an empty universe. Ado in there, making things that change or cease to exist when they aren't actively thinking about them - kind of like cosmic object permanence. Unite likewise makes sense as kind of the opposite of change. If the universe is coming into being, it needs to have this kind of balance or else it flings itself apart and you get nothing. Perceive is the last... I was thinking about the creation of life, this idea that a universe full of stuff that could never know itself was empty. Of them, this is the one I am least confidant about.

[Mulk he/him]

My personal thought, until proven otherwise, is that the Dawnshards came into existence because the original commands to bring the Cosmere and everything in it into being by Adonalsium were so powerful and far reaching that they took on a sort of existence of their own - a sort of coalescence of the echoes of creative power as it were. Probably, it was a single thing/being/item/coalescence of Investiture prior to being taken up and used against Adonalsium, which either had to be broken apart in order to be used by non-Adonalsium beings, or broke as a result of the use it was put to.

[Roocifer]

On 11/11/2020 at 2:19 PM, Halyo_Alex said:

So of course the burning question (in my mind) is what the HECK would happen if an actual Shard (of Ado) picked up a Dawnshard...

...Is this how the end of Stormlight will be unique compared to Mistborn? Dalinar puts Honor and Change together?

I am under the impression that one could not hold a Dawnshard and a Shard of Adonalsium at the same time. My reasoning for this is that Hoid was offered a Shard and he turned it down. Perhaps because he already held a Dawnshard and felt it was a disadvantageous trade?

Also, if one could hold both at the same time, and become more powerful in doing so, it seems like Honor, Cultivation or Odium would have taken one up by now.

[spitfireky she/her]

10 minutes ago, Roocifer said:

I am under the impression that one could not hold a Dawnshard and a Shard of Adonalsium at the same time. My reasoning for this is that Hoid was offered a Shard and he turned it down. Perhaps because he already held a Dawnshard and felt it was a disadvantageous trade?

Also, if one could hold both at the same time, and become more powerful in doing so, it seems like Honor, Cultivation or Odium would have taken one up by now.

I think I saw a theory somewhere on the forums that Odium already might've had a Dawnshard at one point which he then used to kill several Shards, but I'd need to find it again.

[Vuvnak]

16 hours ago, spitfireky said:

I think I saw a theory somewhere on the forums that Odium already might've had a Dawnshard at one point which he then used to kill several Shards, but I'd need to find it again.

What if he use the dawnshard of Division to splinters Dominion, Devotion, Ambition and Honor ?

[Leuthie]

17 hours ago, Roocifer said:

I am under the impression that one could not hold a Dawnshard and a Shard of Adonalsium at the same time. My reasoning for this is that Hoid was offered a Shard and he turned it down. Perhaps because he already held a Dawnshard and felt it was a disadvantageous trade?

Also, if one could hold both at the same time, and become more powerful in doing so, it seems like Honor, Cultivation or Odium would have taken one up by now.

I believe Adonalsium and the Dawnshards are meant to be together. Adonalsium (and its Shards) is the Investiture and the Intent (passive Intent). Dawnshards are the Force of Will and the Command (forceful/active Intent). Together, they are god. Separately, they are pale imitations.

The Dawnshards aren't some restricted weapon made by people to destroy a god. They ARE a part of god just as the Shards are.

The Sleepless don't want Rysn to bond a spren because Investiture gives a Command Power. Whether its an amplifying effect, or simply a huge increase in knowledge and ability, or it simply makes her more visible, it is in the best interests of the Sleepless goals to not allow someone with a Dawnshard to gain a source of Investiture.

[spitfireky she/her]

I think the fact that combining the Command with Investiture enhances power lends credence to the theory that Nightblood's a Dawnshard. This WoB makes me think that maybe Nightblood is a Dawnshard with a Command along the lines of "Destroy", and it being in the hands of Szeth, a Skybreaker, would amplify his power/ability.

Questioner

What’s your most terrifying character, and why is it Nightblood?

Brandon Sanderson

Ha. Nightblood is pretty terrifying… You know, an object created to destroy evil but doesn’t know what it is?

Questioner

When you brought it back...I had <to like shut the book> a little bit and like, scary.

Brandon Sanderson

I wanted you to think that Nightblood in the hands of Szeth should be one of the most terrifying things that you have ever contemplated.

Shadows of Self San Jose signing (Oct. 9, 2015)

 

[Leuthie]

Unchecked Nightblood sucks in all power everywhere without prejudice. It actually loses Cognitive ability while it's sucking in Investiture, which means even if it learns what evil is, there's nothing to control it. It kills all unInvested life in an instant, and permanently deletes Cognitive Shadows almost as fast. It controls minds from a distance, resulting in nausea for those who can resist it (don't want to use Nightblood to kill). That's all super scary.

Why it does all this isn't exactly known, but I doubt it being a Dawnshard will be the explanation when finally given.

[Halyo_Alex he/him]

2 hours ago, spitfireky said:

I think the fact that combining the Command with Investiture enhances power lends credence to the theory that Nightblood's a Dawnshard. This WoB makes me think that maybe Nightblood is a Dawnshard with a Command along the lines of "Destroy", and it being in the hands of Szeth, a Skybreaker, would amplify his power/ability.

I think we may have seen this in action; Doesn't Szeth partially(!) unsheathe Nightblood and then punch someone in the spine with enough force to shatter it? I recall that happening somewhere, but I don't remember where.

[spitfireky she/her]

15 minutes ago, Halyo_Alex said:

I think we may have seen this in action; Doesn't Szeth partially(!) unsheathe Nightblood and then punch someone in the spine with enough force to shatter it? I recall that happening somewhere, but I don't remember where.

It's in Oathbringer when Szeth is taking the Skybreakers' test to swear the Second Ideal.

[Halyo_Alex he/him]

Just now, spitfireky said:

It's in Oathbringer when Szeth is taking the Skybreakers' test to swear the Second Ideal.

Many thanks.

[trav]

On 12/11/2020 at 9:06 PM, spitfireky said:

However, I don't know about Unite and Connect as being two distinct Dawnshards because they seem too similar to me. 

one is meant in the sort of way that everything is one!?! like in religion. investiture is all the same everywhere. everyones soul is investiture. in the beyond they all go back to the same place again. investiture can not get lost. everything is a different form of the same thing. that sort of unity. 

and the other was supposed to be the interaction between the individuals. with places, with each other, or with objects. 

 

in other words:

1. exist

2. ineract

3. remain (once form is taken) 

4. change

Edited November 16, 2020 by trav