The Power of Living Plate

[Lemiltock]

5 minutes ago, beewall said:

There were definitely points where just a little Surgebinding would make it easier, of a small enough amount to not really matter.

Which if surgebinding is always limited by resources you learn to be sparing with it  even small amounts. If he never had to worry about stormlight, then he would likely over use surgebinding even when not needed as it has no cost.

5 minutes ago, beewall said:

Nah, it's confirmed new bodies get made. Which is... weird.

Super, probs so theres no they have to steal someones

5 minutes ago, beewall said:

Sure, Intent can only do what something is able to do. Under this theory, drawing from the Spiritual is something it can do, thus Intent can use it.

I ment the intent of they think they need the metals to key it, but they dont and so are having the metals for no reason (not that i think this just an example) the metals IMO key the stored investiture for use, while the metalmind provides the spiritweb ability and the investiture for said ability

5 minutes ago, beewall said:

Well, the MCs currently have zero Honorblades, and the plot going to the place that has them is probably Book 5 stuff, so they probably won't even get them till near the climax, I feel.

True, but seth had one for 2 books, and then Dalinar/Kaladin had one for another book so theyve played a significant role

5 minutes ago, beewall said:

Heh, yeah, there's a lot of small details like this that get lost. Fair enough.

I mean, "that would be a new mechanic" was your argument.

I dont think i mentioned a new mechanic, a cognitive entitiy of sufficient powef passes investiture from the spiritual to the physical (Honor, Stormfather etc) this i feel is an existing mechanic. The Honorblade (which are non sapient) drawing power directly from the spiritual  is more like a new mechanic

5 minutes ago, beewall said:

Much of what metalminds store is actually part of the spiritweb, as shown by Hemalurgy being able to steal similar things. 

There are two parts here, the ability to use a metalic art, which can be stone and stapled on, this doesnt staple a stored goldmind to your spirit web, just the ability to create and use goldminds etc

The metalmind provides this and the investiture to fuel said ability, this is most noticable with the feurochemic abilitys, Wax does not need to store his own metalminds while tappjng the bands of mourning, he uses the band of mournings investiture.

5 minutes ago, beewall said:

No, because he can tap more of it at once to get stronger Allomantic ability, and I believe he taps smaller amounts of it at times. I'll have to reread to be sure on the latter part though. 

Yes he can adjust how much he draws  but hes fueling the allomancy with more investiture frkm the bands. I.E. it doesnt give his spirit web a stronger alchemy ability, it gives more investiture to the ability he can now use (temporarialy) and hence drains the bands faster

[LewsTherinTelescope]

1 hour ago, Lemiltock said:

Which if surgebinding is always limited by resources you learn to be sparing with it  even small amounts. If he never had to worry about stormlight, then he would likely over use surgebinding even when not needed as it has no cost.

Which is confusing even if he doesn't have infinite SL. Just.... carrying a bunch of gems should not be beyond his ability, and there is really no reason I can see that he wouldn't. I just don't buy the reason that it takes too much SL to carry it, Nale is capable of carrying a pouch.

1 hour ago, Lemiltock said:

I ment the intent of they think they need the metals to key it, but they dont and so are having the metals for no reason (not that i think this just an example) the metals IMO key the stored investiture for use, while the metalmind provides the spiritweb ability and the investiture for said ability

I guess that's a possiblity, but as of now, we have seen no indication that the metalminds contain the source of Investiture (the definition they give in the book is different than the way we usually use the word, so "Investiture" on the chart likely refers to the former, not the latter).

1 hour ago, Lemiltock said:

True, but seth had one for 2 books, and then Dalinar/Kaladin had one for another book so theyve played a significant role

Yes, but neither really understood the nature of the Blade.

1 hour ago, Lemiltock said:

I dont think i mentioned a new mechanic

I may have misunderstood what you said then, my bad.

1 hour ago, Lemiltock said:

The Honorblade (which are non sapient) drawing power directly from the spiritual  is more like a new mechanic

Mmm, something to this level would be somewhat new, I agree. But I would argue it's not fully new. I would argue Breath likely draws small amounts (otherwise, why would it keep running forever and be able to just be recovered?), and I would further argue that the natural spren bonds many Rosharan animals have (such as chasmfiends) have likely do too. I don't think an Honorblade grants an infinite amount at any one time, but rather a very very large amount, and an Honorblade is likely far more powerful than either of the previous two examples, so I could see it working similarly, though not identically.

1 hour ago, Lemiltock said:

There are two parts here, the ability to use a metalic art, which can be stone and stapled on, this doesnt staple a stored goldmind to your spirit web, just the ability to create and use goldminds etc

What I mean is that a lot of Feruchemical attributes are also Hemalurgically stealable. Strength, senses, determination (I would say emotional and/or mental fortitude count as this partially), memories, Connection, Identity, Investiture, Fortune (no way is "might steal destiny" not about this), and probably mental speed ("intelligence" probably means something similar). In fact, every single Hemalurgically stealable attribute seems to have a correspondent in Feruchemy (the various power-stealing ones would probably all be storable by nicrosil). As such, these all are part of the spiritweb. 

1 hour ago, Lemiltock said:

The metalmind provides this and the investiture to fuel said ability, this is most noticable with the feurochemic abilitys, Wax does not need to store his own metalminds while tappjng the bands of mourning, he uses the band of mournings investiture.

I would guess this is more similar to how medallions are actually made of two metalminds, one granting the ability and one containing a metalmind corresponding to that. The Bands probably just contain other metalminds for convenience.

1 hour ago, Lemiltock said:

Yes he can adjust how much he draws  but hes fueling the allomancy with more investiture frkm the bands. I.E. it doesnt give his spirit web a stronger alchemy ability, it gives more investiture to the ability he can now use (temporarialy) and hence drains the bands faster

I mean, we have seen no indication that he tapped anything besides ability in regards to Allomancy. 

[Lemiltock]

13 hours ago, beewall said:

Which is confusing even if he doesn't have infinite SL. Just.... carrying a bunch of gems should not be beyond his ability, and there is really no reason I can see that he wouldn't. I just don't buy the reason that it takes too much SL to carry it, Nale is capable of carrying a pouch.

Yes he is, but with pouches the stormlight is still limited, if stormlight was unlimited we would see him using surgebinding for mundane things when the surgebinding is better because theres no cost. If instead he needs to carry his stormlight it becomes a limited resource and hes likly to use alternative means where possible as only somethings can be done with surgebinding, and you dont want to not have enough to fly to the top of that building because you flew down that corridor to save 2 seconds.

13 hours ago, beewall said:

I guess that's a possiblity, but as of now, we have seen no indication that the metalminds contain the source of Investiture (the definition they give in the book is different than the way we usually use the word, so "Investiture" on the chart likely refers to the former, not the latter).

Here are two WoB one focus on unkeyed but it talks about the two aspects of the investiture (ability to use feurochemy and investiture to power it), the second shows that the medalions which contain necrosil metalminds need refilling.

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

So one of the things people have been asking about a lot the nature of Identity and its uses for accessing other people's metalminds, and things like this right. And I hedged a little bit when somebody asked me... *inaudible*...send people into spirals of confusion, so I'm gonna clarify it for now. So, someone comes in and says, we need a blank metalmind, anybody can use that. I'm like, yes but, the reason that it's a hedge is that you need to actually be a feruchemist to access it, right, you can't just hold the blank metalmind not being a feruchemist, even though it's somebody else's investiture that's been blanked, right. So people keep kind of missing this thing. I'm hedging in the sort of, you don't quite have it, I've kind of dodged it, but I worry that it's just going to be confusing.

So the issue is, you need two things from one of these. You need something that makes you a feruchemist, and then you need a metalmind that somebody else has filled with blank investiture, ok. Now if you can get pure investiture, that can be used by anybody, regardless, ok, you need it in pure form though. But, so there are some other tricks with this as well that don't make it...so anyway, you've got a couple of things that can go on. So you've got a blank metalmind, right, with nothing. You need either investiture, to be able...like you need to be the right type. There are ways to access that if you are completely blank also, if you were a blank slate, but that is still...kind of hard. It's even harder if you are blank, and the metalmind is not blank, but that's not what they're doing in Mistborn right now. You are tapping investiture, gaining the ability of feruchemy and then you are drawing out a blank metalmind, ok. That's the one you need to be...and everything else I'm hedging on intentionally, and I'm worried I hedged in a way that made it sound confusing, ok. So you know now what they're doing. You know that there are other things possible. But I don't want you to think that you have the explanations for how all those things happen, ok.

Arcanum Unbounded Seattle signing (Dec. 1, 2016)

Quote

Pagerunner

At the end of Bands of Mourning, they couldn't refill the heat medallions, was that the brass, or the nicrosil they were having trouble with?

Brandon Sanderson

Let's RAFO that.

JordanCon 2018 (April 22, 2018)

13 hours ago, beewall said:

Yes, but neither really understood the nature of the Blade.

Seth certainly did, having trained with them, and being part of the group of people that have had the Honorblades since the heralds relinquished them.

13 hours ago, beewall said:

I may have misunderstood what you said then, my bad.

All g, it happens

13 hours ago, beewall said:

Mmm, something to this level would be somewhat new, I agree. But I would argue it's not fully new. I would argue Breath likely draws small amounts (otherwise, why would it keep running forever and be able to just be recovered?), and I would further argue that the natural spren bonds many Rosharan animals have (such as chasmfiends) have likely do too. I don't think an Honorblade grants an infinite amount at any one time, but rather a very very large amount, and an Honorblade is likely far more powerful than either of the previous two examples, so I could see it working similarly, though not identically.

Ill post some WoB about the breath below I thought there was a more explicit one but they cover the points on how breath functions i think. On the rosharan animals bonding with spren, they most certainly get their investiture from the highstorms. If they could, why then would radient spren be unable to get investiture from the spiritual realm, they are more sentient and came about by copying the Honorblades. Yet they cannot so I doubt that normal, nonsentient spren can achieve this. It is also a point towards honorblads not doing this as thats what the spren "copied". If it is a conduit to the spiritual realm, then it grants an infinite amount, they may have a certain sized pipe to speek and are limited in investiture per seconds, but so long as there is investiture in the spiritual to be drawn, they can draw it  (if theyre conduits) and can therefore draw an infinite amount.

Quote

Argent

Awakening and Surgebinding, Stormlight and Breath seem really similar in some aspects--

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Argent

--except Breaths seem to stick to things better--

Brandon Sanderson

They do.

Argent

--than Stormlight. So when you are holding the Breath it doesn't expire when you put it in something it doesn't go away. Can you tell me something about why that's happening?

Brandon Sanderson

Part of this is kind of inherent to the Shard and the power it's coming from. I mean the power of Endowment is just going to stick, that's part of the nature of its magic. Does that make sense? But it also kind of has to do with how the ecosystems are working. For instance the Stormlight is essential to the ecosystem of Roshar, it needs to be expended, it needs to get out and-- It's like evaporation, does that make sense?

Argent

Recycling? Not the recycling but the cycle of--

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, yeah like the cycle of water. And so just part of the way the nature of it works, it has to get out, it has to leak out, it has to run out. I mean it leaks even from spheres, right?

Argent

And when you lash things it's temporary--

Brandon Sanderson

Yep. And even though Szeth says that he thought Voidbringers could hold it they can't. Like it is just not the way that it works.

Argent

Can they just hold it better?

Brandon Sanderson

They can hold it better. It's not permanent. Now there are things that can do it permanently but--

Argent

Like the black sphere for example?

Brandon Sanderson

Well we are not going to... The black sphere is something different. You guys have guessed what the black sphere is, right?

Argent

Well we have some ideas. I support that it holds an Unmade. Am I wrong?

Brandon Sanderson

I'm not going to answer that.

Argent

But you said--

Brandon Sanderson

I'm just curious what the theories are. Book 3 the black sphere is-- Everyone who reads the books will know what the black sphere is by the end of Book 3.

Firefight Chicago signing (Feb. 20, 2015)

Quote

PrncRny (paraphrased)

Why is Breath not consumed in Awakening, unlike most all other uses of Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Not all Investitures are "used up." Much like energy, it isn't typically created or destroyed, just changes for. With Breath, in what it's used for, it is just more easily and readily recovered than in other forms.

Idaho Falls signing 2014 (Nov. 29, 2014)

 

 

13 hours ago, beewall said:

What I mean is that a lot of Feruchemical attributes are also Hemalurgically stealable. Strength, senses, determination (I would say emotional and/or mental fortitude count as this partially), memories, Connection, Identity, Investiture, Fortune (no way is "might steal destiny" not about this), and probably mental speed ("intelligence" probably means something similar). In fact, every single Hemalurgically stealable attribute seems to have a correspondent in Feruchemy (the various power-stealing ones would probably all be storable by nicrosil). As such, these all are part of the spiritweb. 

Yes heamalurgy can likely alsos teal the base attributes, but when it steals the ability to perform feurochemy or alomancy it doesnt impart a chunk of power to use those.

On thinking about it, however, i may be wrong with alomancy as a necrosil metalmind stores the ability to use magic. The bands of mourning likely also had unkeyed metal minds for the feurochemy.

This does also fit better with the Honorblades as they grant access to a magic system, and not its power directly. I.E. they let a user draw in stormlight and surgebind, but dont provide the stormlight themselves.

13 hours ago, beewall said:

I would guess this is more similar to how medallions are actually made of two metalminds, one granting the ability and one containing a metalmind corresponding to that. The Bands probably just contain other metalminds for convenience.

 

13 hours ago, beewall said:

I mean, we have seen no indication that he tapped anything besides ability in regards to Allomancy. 

Yes as above i think i did combind feurochemy and alomancy where i shouldnt have. 

[LewsTherinTelescope]

54 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

Yes he is, but with pouches the stormlight is still limited,

Too limited to Lash even a single object at Lift when she keeps escaping?

54 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

one focus on unkeyed but it talks about the two aspects of the investiture (ability to use feurochemy and investiture to power it)

I've seen that one before, and it just hurts my head, to be honest. I'm not really sure what the heck he's saying. 

54 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

the second shows that the medalions which contain necrosil metalminds need refilling.

The heat needs refilling, yes (or according to Suit, it does; from what I understand, it is a subject of some debate). But the heat is not stored in nicrosil. Each medallion consists of two metals, nicrosil granting the ability to tap somehow, and a medallion with some of the attribute stored for convenience. So the heat is stored in an attached unkeyed brass metalmind, not a nicrosil one. 

54 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

Seth certainly did, having trained with them, and being part of the group of people that have had the Honorblades since the heralds relinquished them.

You'd think they would, yet they don't even realize they can summon the Blades instantly, despite the fact they've held the Honorblades since a couple millennia pre-Recreance. So clearly the Shin don't fully get it.

54 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

On the rosharan animals bonding with spren, they most certainly get their investiture from the highstorms. If they could, why then would radient spren be unable to get investiture from the spiritual realm

That's a fair point, and my mind completely blanked on that. So probably right about those.

55 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

If it is a conduit to the spiritual realm, then it grants an infinite amount, they may have a certain sized pipe to speek and are limited in investiture per seconds, but so long as there is investiture in the spiritual to be drawn, they can draw it  (if theyre conduits) and can therefore draw an infinite amount.

Yeah, the rate is what I was referring to. Ultimately, they have an infinite amount accessible, but they cannot use an infinite amount at one moment (so no Lashing moons or something insane like that).

56 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

It is also a point towards honorblads not doing this as thats what the spren "copied".

I mean, the Nahel bond isn't exactly identical to the Honorblades. Spren take much longer to bond, and to reach the Blade state, for example. I would guess Honor had to design the Honorblades to hook up to the Spiritual, and spren simply can't do this (as you pointed out that it's highly unlikely lesser spren do it either). 

59 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

On thinking about it, however, i may be wrong with alomancy as a necrosil metalmind stores the ability to use magic. The bands of mourning likely also had unkeyed metal minds for the feurochemy.

Yeah, this is what seems the most likely to me at the moment, as it's what normal medallions do.

1 hour ago, Lemiltock said:

This does also fit better with the Honorblades as they grant access to a magic system, and not its power directly. I.E. they let a user draw in stormlight and surgebind, but dont provide the stormlight themselves.

Perhaps I should rephrase what I have been saying. I do not think the Honorblade itself draws SL, but rather that it allows the user to do so. So in this case, it would be granting an ability. I see it as similar in concept (though not actually mechanically the same, just trying to get the idea across) as if Vin ended up storing the ability to take in the mists. 

[Lemiltock]

26 minutes ago, beewall said:

Too limited to Lash even a single object at Lift when she keeps escaping?

Its not so much the he doesnt have enough, its the learned response to opportunity cost. If he uses that lash now, when he coukd just chase her he cant lash later in an instance where he cna only lash. The cost while small in this case is not always and leads to a mentality of saving stormlight when other options exist. This mentality would not be present if he could refil his stormlight with ease.

26 minutes ago, beewall said:

I've seen that one before, and it just hurts my head, to be honest. I'm not really sure what the heck he's saying. 

Yer its painful, i thought there was another but couldnt find it. Basically breath sticjs better because its breath. And the second is the energy(investiture) is neither created or destroyed it changes forms. 

26 minutes ago, beewall said:

The heat needs refilling, yes (or according to Suit, it does; from what I understand, it is a subject of some debate). But the heat is not stored in nicrosil. Each medallion consists of two metals, nicrosil granting the ability to tap somehow, and a medallion with some of the attribute stored for convenience. So the heat is stored in an attached unkeyed brass metalmind, not a nicrosil one. 

Yes i did confuse these, however, the necrosil grants only the ability to use the power stored. If you stored surgebinding it would grant you access to the surge an dthe ability to draw in (breath) storm light. It would not grant you direct access to the spiritual to fuel said surge.

26 minutes ago, beewall said:

You'd think they would, yet they don't even realize they can summon the Blades instantly, despite the fact they've held the Honorblades since a couple millennia pre-Recreance. So clearly the Shin don't fully get it.

The summoning came later anyway, and the Heralds did not summon them in the same way (see taln just dropping his blade). The Shin would have not seen the Honorblades summoned/unsummoned to know this was possible. They most certainly saw the heralds surgdbind, and draw in stormlight differently to radiants. Even if they didnt its not a stretch to need stormlight and not realise your apheres are empty, keep trying to draw it in and use the Honorblade for this purpose the intent is there (give me stormlight) and they know they can draw it, the spheres just ran dry. I find it unlikly that a similar mechanic would not have been discovered.

26 minutes ago, beewall said:

That's a fair point, and my mind completely blanked on that. So probably right about those.

Yeah, the rate is what I was referring to. Ultimately, they have an infinite amount accessible, but they cannot use an infinite amount at one moment (so no Lashing moons or something insane like that).

This is likely more an issue of how much they can use then they can draw at once, see Elend when drawing on Preservation. He could use unlimited allomancy, and he didnt punch a whole through the earth due to rediculous strength (with his foot and pewter, or steel and his anchor) but in either case the Honorblades being an unlimited source of power for the surgebinding it grants would make Moash unbeatable, especially given Odium would know if it could draw stormlight directly.

26 minutes ago, beewall said:

I mean, the Nahel bond isn't exactly identical to the Honorblades. Spren take much longer to bond, and to reach the Blade state, for example. I would guess Honor had to design the Honorblades to hook up to the Spiritual, and spren simply can't do this (as you pointed out that it's highly unlikely lesser spren do it either). 

You argued that lesser spren do this, i may have missread however. In either case the spren copied what honor did with the honorblades. They may have just not been able to do that  but it seems like a stretch to say they copied honorblades  except for that one major power.

26 minutes ago, beewall said:

Yeah, this is what seems the most likely to me at the moment, as it's what normal medallions do.

Perhaps I should rephrase what I have been saying. I do not think the Honorblade itself draws SL, but rather that it allows the user to do so. So in this case, it would be granting an ability. I see it as similar in concept (though not actually mechanically the same, just trying to get the idea across) as if Vin ended up storing the ability to take in the mists. 

Even if it granted this ability, it is not precedented, no where in the cosmere can a person connect to the spiritual and draw investiture forth. The stormfather is IIRC the only non shard to do anything close, and he is farther from a normal spren then he is a person. Given the mechanics weve seen by other shards its far more likely that this was granted through Honor than by a tool created by said Shard, especially when no other tool does this.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

26 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

Its not so much the he doesnt have enough, its the learned response to opportunity cost. If he uses that lash now, when he coukd just chase her he cant lash later in an instance where he cna only lash. The cost while small in this case is not always and leads to a mentality of saving stormlight when other options exist. This mentality would not be present if he could refil his stormlight with ease.

I guess, but that still doesn't really feel quite enough to me. But I have no logical arguments against it, just a gut feeling. So you're probably right, I guess.

27 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

Yer its painful, i thought there was another but couldnt find it.

Yeah, I know the feeling lol. When you know you had a WoB but just cannot find it....

30 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

This is likely more an issue of how much they can use then they can draw at once, see Elend when drawing on Preservation. He could use unlimited allomancy, and he didnt punch a whole through the earth due to rediculous strength (with his foot and pewter, or steel and his anchor)

I'd say that he probably could only draw a limited amount (whether that's a limitation of the connection or just how much a body can hold safely, idk, probably the latter), but this part's totally just a pedantic thing, so I'll drop it, as we seem to at least agree on the basics that the amount useable at any given second is limited with these things.

32 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

You argued that lesser spren do this, i may have missread however.

No, I did argue that at first, but then you pointed out that the idea didn't really make sense, so I changed my mind on that part. 

33 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

In either case the spren copied what honor did with the honorblades. They may have just not been able to do that  but it seems like a stretch to say they copied honorblades  except for that one major power.

I mean, they clearly didn't manage to make perfect replicas of the Honorblades anyway. So I see it as plausible.

35 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

Even if it granted this ability, it is not precedented, no where in the cosmere can a person connect to the spiritual and draw investiture forth.

Allomancers and sand masters both draw Investiture from the Spiritual as part of the process of their powers. It's nowhere near the level of the direct Honor conduit, of course, but I think it is precedent for such a power existing, especially taking into consideration that Honor directly made the Honorblades to be powerful weapons, while the others appear to be more natural outgrowths of the magic.

37 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

The stormfather is IIRC the only non shard to do anything close,

Dalinar

But that's a smart-alek answer, considering he's a really weird edge case lol.

38 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

he is farther from a normal spren then he is a person.

I mean, the Honorblades are probably closer to spren than people, though I wouldn't say they're exactly the former either. (Unless I misunderstood the sentence.)

40 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

its far more likely that this was granted through Honor than by a tool created by said Shard, especially when no other tool does this.

I don't think we've seen anything on the level of the Honorblades before. Lerasium beads would be the closest, but an Honorblade both grants a more powerful power and is probably far, far more Invested than a bead of lerasium (though I suppose a lerasium blade could be Invested similarly?). I personally think that a Shard making something capable of letting someone draw power seems within their limits. 

[Lemiltock]

35 minutes ago, beewall said:

I guess, but that still doesn't really feel quite enough to me. But I have no logical arguments against it, just a gut feeling. So you're probably right, I guess.

Yeah, I know the feeling lol. When you know you had a WoB but just cannot find it....

I'd say that he probably could only draw a limited amount (whether that's a limitation of the connection or just how much a body can hold safely, idk, probably the latter), but this part's totally just a pedantic thing, so I'll drop it, as we seem to at least agree on the basics that the amount useable at any given second is limited with these things.

I agree alot of this doesnt have strong evidence either way.

35 minutes ago, beewall said:

No, I did argue that at first, but then you pointed out that the idea didn't really make sense, so I changed my mind on that part. 

Ahhh i understand now

35 minutes ago, beewall said:

I mean, they clearly didn't manage to make perfect replicas of the Honorblades anyway. So I see it as plausible.

I agree plausable  but given its extra  will need evidence to support it.

35 minutes ago, beewall said:

Allomancers and sand masters both draw Investiture from the Spiritual as part of the process of their powers. It's nowhere near the level of the direct Honor conduit, of course, but I think it is precedent for such a power existing, especially taking into consideration that Honor directly made the Honorblades to be powerful weapons, while the others appear to be more natural outgrowths of the magic.

I didnt look at them that way, and its certainly possible  however  both trade something for the investiture, the metal or water IIRC. Where as the Honorblades are not used up in the process so I think there is still enough difference to call the allomancy/sand master mechanic different from being a conduit but I dont have much evidence either way and could see this being work under the same mechanic

35 minutes ago, beewall said:

Dalinar

But that's a smart-alek answer, considering he's a really weird edge case lol.

Haha he is a weird edge case  but he also does that with the stormfather (and Tanavasts CS)

35 minutes ago, beewall said:

I mean, the Honorblades are probably closer to spren than people, though I wouldn't say they're exactly the former either. (Unless I misunderstood the sentence.)

I think I worded this poorly, what i ment was the Stormfather is closer to a  shard in term of power than he is to a normal spren, or even a normal spren is to a human. So i think his case certainly allows others entities to do it, but not just anyone to do it.

35 minutes ago, beewall said:

I don't think we've seen anything on the level of the Honorblades before. Lerasium beads would be the closest, but an Honorblade both grants a more powerful power and is probably far, far more Invested than a bead of lerasium (though I suppose a lerasium blade could be Invested similarly?). I personally think that a Shard making something capable of letting someone draw power seems within their limits. 

Honorblades are certainly more powerful, although a Lerasium bead permanentally gives you allomancy not just while holding it. And while it certainly gives stronger allomantic ability, it doesnt give some extra connection to the spiritual that allows the user to draw directly from the spiritual.

 

Ive also had two furth thoughts.

The first is about Moash and Odium, i think this is the strongest evidence that they do not grant investiture. As Odium would be aware of what the Honirblades can do and we dont see Moash performing Herald level surgebinding. The weakness here is that we havnt seen a significant amount of surgebinding on his half either.

The second is Hoid, if the Honorblades granted such a powerful and unique ability he would certainly be trying to get one, and I imagine would not struggle to do so.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

23 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

I agree plausable  but given its extra  will need evidence to support it.

Yeah, this is where that WoB and the Stormfather's quotes come in, as I see those as evidence. I agree just saying "it's the Honorblades" without any evidence would not be enough.

To avoid having to go back all the way to the original messages, I'll post the WoB and quote again. 

Quote

Steeldancer

The Heralds, back before Honor died, were they directly powered by Honor?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. You’ll find out more about that, but the Shardblades [pretty sure he means Honorblades here] were pieces of Honor’s soul that he gave them, and direct access to his essence.

Steeldancer

Like Vin and Elend?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, a little like that. That’s why Honorblades don’t work like Shardblades do, like Radiants do.

Steeldancer

The second part of the question is, what would happen if they were directly powered by Honor and they were holding Nightblood?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO

Boskone 54 (Feb. 17, 2017)

(Emphasis mine, as well as a comma I added in that I feel is present in the audio, but not transcribed, and I think helps clarify my interpretation.)

I interpret this underlined portion as saying "the Honorblades were pieces of Honor's soul that he gave them, and [were] direct access to his essence", with the "were" implied as it is a continuation of the statement "they were pieces of Honor's soul".

On the other hand, it sounds like you interpret this as "the Honorblades were pieces of Honor's soul that he gave them, and [he also gave them] direct access to his essence". While I can see this as an interpretation of what he said, it also feels like somewhat awkward phrasing, and the implied verb being "were" feels more natural to me.

Quote

It is a weapon beyond parallel. The gift of a god. With it, you would be a Windrunner unoathed. And more. More that men do not understand, and cannot. Like a Herald, nearly. 

This line to me indicates that using an Honorblade can, if you understand what it is and what it can do, allow one to become almost like a Herald, power-wise.

I would highly doubt an Honorblade makes one a Cognitive Shadow, and it granting the reflexes would be a little odd, as Taln still has them despite (presumably) not having his Honorblade.

By process of elimination, and combined with the WoB above, it seems likely to me that the Honorblades grant the direct conduit to Honor, which is a power that would be extremely dangerous and worry the Stormfather, and would make one "like a Herald, nearly". 

38 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

I didnt look at them that way, and its certainly possible  however  both trade something for the investiture, the metal or water IIRC. Where as the Honorblades are not used up in the process so I think there is still enough difference to call the allomancy/sand master mechanic different from being a conduit but I dont have much evidence either way and could see this being work under the same mechanic

Yeah, I would agree that it's not a perfect comparison. I see it less as an exact "this is it", and more as establishing that it is possible for one to have an ability to draw power from the Spiritual. I then, using the WoB and the SF quote, speculate that the Honorblades grant a much larger conduit, functioning differently but with similar underlying fundamentals.

40 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

I think I worded this poorly, what i ment was the Stormfather is closer to a  shard in term of power than he is to a normal spren, or even a normal spren is to a human. So i think his case certainly allows others entities to do it, but not just anyone to do it.

Ah, I see what you're saying now. I would of course agree that in general, a person would not be able to just draw power. I do, however, believe that it is possible for a Shard to allow this, by giving a very powerful Splinter of their power.

44 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

Honorblades are certainly more powerful, although a Lerasium bead permanentally gives you allomancy not just while holding it. And while it certainly gives stronger allomantic ability, it doesnt give some extra connection to the spiritual that allows the user to draw directly from the spiritual.

Yes, they're definitely pretty different. I wasn't saying it was directly comparable, just that it is the closest we have seen to the Honorblades, as god metal that grants access to forms of Investiture in some manner. But nothing we've seen is really a 1:1 comparison.

46 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

The first is about Moash and Odium, i think this is the strongest evidence that they do not grant investiture. As Odium would be aware of what the Honirblades can do and we dont see Moash performing Herald level surgebinding. The weakness here is that we havnt seen a significant amount of surgebinding on his half either.

This is actually something I find makes it feel more likely to me. As of now, Moash is mainly just a less-skilled Szeth. He needs something to make him an actual threat, and I think learning of this could be part of it. (And the fact that he's got at least part of the soul of Jezrien, the Herald to whom the Honorblade belonged, feels like it could be relevant.)

48 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

The second is Hoid, if the Honorblades granted such a powerful and unique ability he would certainly be trying to get one, and I imagine would not struggle to do so.

I see a few potential downsides. One, the Honorblade may be harder to get off-planet - getting a spren off-planet is apparently difficult, but I feel like a solid object will be much harder to remove limitations on, however that ends up being done. Two, there's a lot more spren than Honorblades, so acquiring the former is much easier. Three (and I think this is the biggest one), stealing an Honorblade when you are unable to harm its bearer sounds rather difficult to do, especially given that seven of ten are guarded by one group who can probably rip your hand off if you go near any of them, one is held by Odium's forces, whom Hoid is trying to avoid, one is held by a Herald who can definitely keep his safe, and one is.... who the hell knows where Taln's Blade is, honestly.

Also, we know that Hoid left the second bead of lerasium because he could using Fortune tell that taking it would be a bad idea, and I would guess taking an Honorblade could similarly cause issues he does not want to deal with. 

[Lemiltock]

3 hours ago, beewall said:

Yeah, this is where that WoB and the Stormfather's quotes come in, as I see those as evidence. I agree just saying "it's the Honorblades" without any evidence would not be enough.

To avoid having to go back all the way to the original messages, I'll post the WoB and quote again. 

(Emphasis mine, as well as a comma I added in that I feel is present in the audio, but not transcribed, and I think helps clarify my interpretation.)

I interpret this underlined portion as saying "the Honorblades were pieces of Honor's soul that he gave them, and [were] direct access to his essence", with the "were" implied as it is a continuation of the statement "they were pieces of Honor's soul".

On the other hand, it sounds like you interpret this as "the Honorblades were pieces of Honor's soul that he gave them, and [he also gave them] direct access to his essence". While I can see this as an interpretation of what he said, it also feels like somewhat awkward phrasing, and the implied verb being "were" feels more natural to me.

This line to me indicates that using an Honorblade can, if you understand what it is and what it can do, allow one to become almost like a Herald, power-wise.

I would highly doubt an Honorblade makes one a Cognitive Shadow, and it granting the reflexes would be a little odd, as Taln still has them despite (presumably) not having his Honorblade.

By process of elimination, and combined with the WoB above, it seems likely to me that the Honorblades grant the direct conduit to Honor, which is a power that would be extremely dangerous and worry the Stormfather, and would make one "like a Herald, nearly". 

I can see your interpretation, I still think mine is correct but unfortunatley WoB trnd to be ambigious, I do however still think with honor being shattered will have effected it. I dont put much stock in the stormfather, who is gruff still bonding Dalinar and doesnt like sharing information. The Stormfather also doesnt seem upset that Dalinar can open a perpediculary, he is suprised but doesnt seem to try and stop him. If his worry with the honorblades was about Stormlight he would also likey take issue with Dalinar using this ability.

3 hours ago, beewall said:

Yeah, I would agree that it's not a perfect comparison. I see it less as an exact "this is it", and more as establishing that it is possible for one to have an ability to draw power from the Spiritual. I then, using the WoB and the SF quote, speculate that the Honorblades grant a much larger conduit, functioning differently but with similar underlying fundamentals.

I dont think its similar enough, the extra step from powers can draw from the spiritual at a cost to at no cost doesnt have a precedence IMO

3 hours ago, beewall said:

Ah, I see what you're saying now. I would of course agree that in general, a person would not be able to just draw power. I do, however, believe that it is possible for a Shard to allow this, by giving a very powerful Splinter of their power.

Except we have no precedence for it, the honor blades dont seem to be scentient which buts their inate investiture as quite low, they are splinters and being godmetals explains why you can surgebind while holding them (the cost here is touch rather than using it up to gain the ability) and the only non shard we have seen is the stormfather who has more investiture than the nightblood.

Quote

Questioner

You've previously said that Nightblood is the most powerful non-Shardic being in the Cosmere. Is he more powerful than the Unmade or Stormfather in terms of raw Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

Raw Investiture? Here's the thing, when you say powerful, it can mean lots of different things. More raw Investiture than the Stormfather... probably not. Than the Unmade, probably. I would have to look, I don't have the numbers on this. But the Stormfather is very restricted in what he can do.

Orem Signing (March 16, 2019)

3 hours ago, beewall said:

Yes, they're definitely pretty different. I wasn't saying it was directly comparable, just that it is the closest we have seen to the Honorblades, as god metal that grants access to forms of Investiture in some manner. But nothing we've seen is really a 1:1 comparison.

Yer it is the closest and like i said above both being god metals seem to follow a similar mechanic in that they provide access to the magic system at a cost.

3 hours ago, beewall said:

This is actually something I find makes it feel more likely to me. As of now, Moash is mainly just a less-skilled Szeth. He needs something to make him an actual threat, and I think learning of this could be part of it. (And the fact that he's got at least part of the soul of Jezrien, the Herald to whom the Honorblade belonged, feels like it could be relevant.)

I see Moash as a much worse enemy then Seth despite the slight difference in their swordsmanship. The anti-moral that he provides will make the bridgment and windrunners as a whole less effective when facing him.

3 hours ago, beewall said:

I see a few potential downsides. One, the Honorblade may be harder to get off-planet - getting a spren off-planet is apparently difficult, but I feel like a solid object will be much harder to remove limitations on, however that ends up being done. Two, there's a lot more spren than Honorblades, so acquiring the former is much easier. Three (and I think this is the biggest one), stealing an Honorblade when you are unable to harm its bearer sounds rather difficult to do, especially given that seven of ten are guarded by one group who can probably rip your hand off if you go near any of them, one is held by Odium's forces, whom Hoid is trying to avoid, one is held by a Herald who can definitely keep his safe, and one is.... who the hell knows where Taln's Blade is, honestly.

Harder to get off planet then the spren he bounded, with tbe added benefit of a direct tap of investiture from the spiritual and no oaths, its an easy pick there for Hoid.

Even if Hoid wasnt the sneakiest person in the Cosmere and an excelent theif, he basically laughed at Jasnah when she drew her spren and said I doubt that would even hurt me. So despite his inability to hurt he could easily steal it, or just walk in and laugh as they do nothing.

3 hours ago, beewall said:

Also, we know that Hoid left the second bead of lerasium because he could using Fortune tell that taking it would be a bad idea, and I would guess taking an Honorblade could similarly cause issues he does not want to deal with. 

I was suggesting he take one blade, not collect all 10. A spren may offer the advantage of not needing to carry the sword, but if the sword gave him unlimited free stormlight I dont see him turning this down.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

25 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

I can see your interpretation, I still think mine is correct but unfortunatley WoB trnd to be ambigious,

Yeah, fair, lol.

27 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

who is gruff still bonding Dalinar and doesnt like sharing information

Isn't mentioning that the Honorblades have deeper potential sharing more information than he technically had to give? I mean, I agree he keeps a lot of secrets, but if he is mentioning something, I'm inclined to think there's something there.

28 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

The Stormfather also doesnt seem upset that Dalinar can open a perpediculary, he is suprised but doesnt seem to try and stop him. If his worry with the honorblades was about Stormlight he would also likey take issue with Dalinar using this ability.

I feel like there's a difference there, though I'm trying to figure out how to phrase it. Like, the Perp is a thing Dalinar can for short periods of time choose to do. He can choose to close it, or to not open it in the first place, and it can't stay open for long, as well as only being able to be used where he is. With the Honorblades, someone can hide it and take it anywhere, use it for a longer period of time, and there's not a way to shut it off.

I forget, did the Perp recharge the Radiants themselves, or just their gems? I'm gonna need to recheck.

32 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

I dont think its similar enough, the extra step from powers can draw from the spiritual at a cost to at no cost doesnt have a precedence IMO

It's a large step, I agree. But I think this being due to a Shard directly creating something can potentially explain that. (I'm also not sure there's no cost, although I have no idea what the cost would be, as if it does exist, we haven't exactly seen it.)

34 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

Except we have no precedence for it, the honor blades dont seem to be scentient which buts their inate investiture as quite low,

I mean, there's probably ways to keep them from gaining sapience somehow. I can't imagine them not being heavily Invested.

36 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

they are splinters and being godmetals explains why you can surgebind while holding them

I mean, Splinters and godmetals are both pure Investiture. So one as a sword is gonna be preeeeeeetty Invested.

37 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

the cost here is touch rather than using it up to gain the ability

Hmm, never thought about it this way. I suppose you could say that.

38 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

I see Moash as a much worse enemy then Seth despite the slight difference in their swordsmanship. The anti-moral that he provides will make the bridgment and windrunners as a whole less effective when facing him.

When it comes to emotional impact, I agree. But I do think Brandon will also want to make the powerset different in some manner, even if that difference is just fuel amount, with the main powers remaining the same. 

41 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

Even if Hoid wasnt the sneakiest person in the Cosmere and an excelent theif, he basically laughed at Jasnah when she drew her spren and said I doubt that would even hurt me. So despite his inability to hurt he could easily steal it, or just walk in and laugh as they do nothing.

I mean, bit hard to steal a Blade that presumably is dismissed the majority of the time. You'd have to get one to drop it, then grab it and dismiss it before another kills your hand. Even if you heal it, keeping you from grabbing the Blade doesn't need you to be wounded long. Not being able to harm someone makes getting an Honorblade from them really hard, even for Hoid.

44 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

I was suggesting he take one blade, not collect all 10. 

If the Honorblades do grant SL, all would probably be important. (Also, I feel like Radiants using Honorblades to gain extra powers when fighting could end up playing a role.)

46 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

A spren may offer the advantage of not needing to carry the sword

An Honorblade can be dismissed without negative effect. (Which also makes stealing it incredibly difficult.)

47 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

but if the sword gave him unlimited free stormlight I dont see him turning this down.

Assuming he could get ahold of one, which I doubt. 

[Lemiltock]

35 minutes ago, beewall said:

Yeah, fair, lol.

Isn't mentioning that the Honorblades have deeper potential sharing more information than he technically had to give? I mean, I agree he keeps a lot of secrets, but if he is mentioning something, I'm inclined to think there's something there.

I see this as Stormfather making the unknown sound dangerous so Dalinar doesnt dig, not him giving actual information persay

35 minutes ago, beewall said:

I feel like there's a difference there, though I'm trying to figure out how to phrase it. Like, the Perp is a thing Dalinar can for short periods of time choose to do. He can choose to close it, or to not open it in the first place, and it can't stay open for long, as well as only being able to be used where he is. With the Honorblades, someone can hide it and take it anywhere, use it for a longer period of time, and there's not a way to shut it off.

It is something Dalinar does, but because of the stormfather (and presumably Tanavasts CS now in the Stormfather), much like Kaladin lashes, but its only because of Syl that he can do this.

35 minutes ago, beewall said:

I forget, did the Perp recharge the Radiants themselves, or just their gems? I'm gonna need to recheck.

I remeber it recharging everyone/thing but id need to go back and look

35 minutes ago, beewall said:

It's a large step, I agree. But I think this being due to a Shard directly creating something can potentially explain that. (I'm also not sure there's no cost, although I have no idea what the cost would be, as if it does exist, we haven't exactly seen it.)

I mean, there's probably ways to keep them from gaining sapience somehow. I can't imagine them not being heavily Invested.

Maybe, but given enough investiture will eventual become scentient that the likely way is to keep its power bellow a threshold (admitidly this is likely a very high threashold) and them being godmetals may affect this (technically they are of Honor i suppose)

35 minutes ago, beewall said:

I mean, Splinters and godmetals are both pure Investiture. So one as a sword is gonna be preeeeeeetty Invested.

Certainly agree, but still less so then other scentient splinters I.E. the Stormfather

35 minutes ago, beewall said:

Hmm, never thought about it this way. I suppose you could say that.

When it comes to emotional impact, I agree. But I do think Brandon will also want to make the powerset different in some manner, even if that difference is just fuel amount, with the main powers remaining the same. 

True, but he has also set Moash up to be a great fighter throughout the books, hes also quite tactical and learning from the fused

35 minutes ago, beewall said:

I mean, bit hard to steal a Blade that presumably is dismissed the majority of the time. You'd have to get one to drop it, then grab it and dismiss it before another kills your hand. Even if you heal it, keeping you from grabbing the Blade doesn't need you to be wounded long. Not being able to harm someone makes getting an Honorblade from them really hard, even for Hoid.

Hoid heals faster than someone like Kaladin, he also seems to think a shardblade would not hurt him at all and he has a good understanding of cosmere magic.

35 minutes ago, beewall said:

If the Honorblades do grant SL, all would probably be important. (Also, I feel like Radiants using Honorblades to gain extra powers when fighting could end up playing a role.)

They would all be very important but Hoid would only need one to get his investiture tap.

35 minutes ago, beewall said:

An Honorblade can be dismissed without negative effect. (Which also makes stealing it incredibly difficult.)

Hoid the master of disguise couldnt pretend to be a Shin to the point where he is trained to use them (several Shin are so its not uncommon) and once hes holding on, Hoid out. He can also hurt in non traditional sence, make noise so they dont sleep, make himself look dangerous so the summon then, take the sword from theire hand (hes strong and fsst just cant hurt) then Hoid out.

35 minutes ago, beewall said:

Assuming he could get ahold of one, which I doubt. 

Hes gotten hold of rare heavily guarded hidden away objects all ober the cosmere, if it wasnt Hoid id agree, but for Hoid it would probs be like another tuesday.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

4 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

I see this as Stormfather making the unknown sound dangerous so Dalinar doesnt dig, not him giving actual information persay

That could be, but like.... don't get me wrong, someone with an Honorblade is dangerous, especially because they don't have to follow any version of the oaths, but "like a Herald" feels like a massive overstatement, and it'd be kinda underwhelming if there wasn't anything to it at all.

6 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

It is something Dalinar does, but because of the stormfather (and presumably Tanavasts CS now in the Stormfather), much like Kaladin lashes, but its only because of Syl that he can do this.

Not contesting this, I agree.

7 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

Maybe, but given enough investiture will eventual become scentient that the likely way is to keep its power bellow a threshold (admitidly this is likely a very high threashold) and them being godmetals may affect this (technically they are of Honor i suppose)

Keeping the power low is probably the most effective way, but there's probably other ones - could totally be that being a godmetal is enough, because a chunk of metal becoming sapient naturally over time seems unlikely (but then, maybe it does work that way and you can get sapient objects by just making it out of godmetals, lol).

9 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

Certainly agree, but still less so then other scentient splinters I.E. the Stormfather

Less Invested than the Stormfather is a rather extremely high bar, lmao. But I agree there, no way is an Honorblade higher in total Investiture than the SF.

10 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

True, but he has also set Moash up to be a great fighter throughout the books, hes also quite tactical and learning from the fused

True, I guess.

10 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

Hoid heals faster than someone like Kaladin, he also seems to think a shardblade would not hurt him at all and he has a good understanding of cosmere magic.

He probably heals quick, sure, but it's not like it takes more than a second or so to keep him from grabbing the Blade if someone drops it.

14 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

several Shin are so its not uncommon

I'd wager that there's one per Honorblade (maybe a second as an "heir" of sorts), and presumably a lot of thorough background checking. Hoid's talented, but I think it would take a lot that he may not want to deal with. 

And taking one would probably also draw a lot more attention than getting a spren.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

27 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

Hes gotten hold of rare heavily guarded hidden away objects all ober the cosmere, if it wasnt Hoid id agree, but for Hoid it would probs be like another tuesday.

Sorry, forgot to respond to this part. Yes, Hoid has figured out a lot, and managed to steal a lot. But he usually does it at a point where it's vulnerable (such as after the fall of the Final Empire). Based on the fact that the Shin have retained the Honorblades for 4.5k years, I'd say that they haven't had many such weak points. 

[Lemiltock]

20 hours ago, beewall said:

That could be, but like.... don't get me wrong, someone with an Honorblade is dangerous, especially because they don't have to follow any version of the oaths, but "like a Herald" feels like a massive overstatement, and it'd be kinda underwhelming if there wasn't anything to it at all.

I imagine surgebinding like a 5th oath radient, but with the lack of oaths is quite significant, especially for some surges. But he may be grain of truthing it as well.

20 hours ago, beewall said:

Not contesting this, I agree.

Keeping the power low is probably the most effective way, but there's probably other ones - could totally be that being a godmetal is enough, because a chunk of metal becoming sapient naturally over time seems unlikely (but then, maybe it does work that way and you can get sapient objects by just making it out of godmetals, lol).

Yer i feel Brandon hasnt explored these mechanics deep enough yet, but hopefully he will.

20 hours ago, beewall said:

Less Invested than the Stormfather is a rather extremely high bar, lmao. But I agree there, no way is an Honorblade higher in total Investiture than the SF.

Theyre likely less invested than the fused, and they need to refil voidlight. (Maybe not the 9 pillars, and it may be filled from Odium directly, but from the Pursuer needing to go away to refil i find gems the likly source)

20 hours ago, beewall said:

True, I guess.

He probably heals quick, sure, but it's not like it takes more than a second or so to keep him from grabbing the Blade if someone drops it.

Only if you can cut Hoid, a super powerful, super crafty not quite person anymore. I would back Hoids ability to move faster and trickier than the heralds or Vasher and they are faster and more experienced fhan a mortal.

20 hours ago, beewall said:

I'd wager that there's one per Honorblade (maybe a second as an "heir" of sorts), and presumably a lot of thorough background checking. Hoid's talented, but I think it would take a lot that he may not want to deal with. 

Hoid has stolen rare relics from across the cosmere, and while they ahve required effort hes never really struggled from what weve seen.

20 hours ago, beewall said:

And taking one would probably also draw a lot more attention than getting a spren.

I agree, and has other small advantages I think (less power more ease I.E. a companion vs carrying a sword) but if the Honorblades granted a tap to the spiritual it would be worth the cost, especially given the Horneaters already think him a God so hes not above being know on occasions. 

19 hours ago, beewall said:

Sorry, forgot to respond to this part. Yes, Hoid has figured out a lot, and managed to steal a lot. But he usually does it at a point where it's vulnerable (such as after the fall of the Final Empire). Based on the fact that the Shin have retained the Honorblades for 4.5k years, I'd say that they haven't had many such weak points. 

Just because he takes advantage of vulnerabilities, doesnt mean Hoid the craftiest entity in the Cosmere needs things to be going wrong to steal stuff. Hoid is IMO far more skillful than just having access and taking advantage of Fortune.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

On 11/5/2020 at 9:31 PM, Lemiltock said:

I imagine surgebinding like a 5th oath radient, but with the lack of oaths is quite significant, especially for some surges. But he may be grain of truthing it as well.

The Stormfather specifically says more than just an unoathed Radiant.

On 11/5/2020 at 9:31 PM, Lemiltock said:

Yer i feel Brandon hasnt explored these mechanics deep enough yet, but hopefully he will.

Yeah, definitely.

On 11/5/2020 at 9:31 PM, Lemiltock said:

Theyre likely less invested than the fused, and they need to refil voidlight. (Maybe not the 9 pillars, and it may be filled from Odium directly, but from the Pursuer needing to go away to refil i find gems the likly source)

The difference is in design, imo. The Fused were not designed to draw a bunch of power, but to be CS who I guess can exploit the natural bonding system to take over a body (and I feel it's implied by the SF that they didn't even have Surges at first). The Honorblades, however, were designed to grant power.

On 11/5/2020 at 9:31 PM, Lemiltock said:

Only if you can cut Hoid, a super powerful, super crafty not quite person anymore. I would back Hoids ability to move faster and trickier than the heralds or Vasher and they are faster and more experienced fhan a mortal.

I don't think he'd move fast enough to avoid a massive sword. And I mean, if you just stand there holding it tightly enough, I don't think he can like grab your hands and rip them off it.

On 11/5/2020 at 9:31 PM, Lemiltock said:

Hoid has stolen rare relics from across the cosmere, and while they ahve required effort hes never really struggled from what weve seen.

So far as I'm aware, the two main things we've seen him steal are the lerasium (just sitting in a room, with TLR no longer near it), and the Moon Scepter, which seems to have been sitting in a museum or something? Unsure exactly on that one.

On 11/5/2020 at 9:31 PM, Lemiltock said:

given the Horneaters already think him a God so hes not above being know on occasions. 

They know of him, but generally not where he is. I feel the Honorblades are probably watched rather heavily by various forces.

On 11/5/2020 at 9:31 PM, Lemiltock said:

Just because he takes advantage of vulnerabilities, doesnt mean Hoid the craftiest entity in the Cosmere needs things to be going wrong to steal stuff. Hoid is IMO far more skillful than just having access and taking advantage of Fortune.

Sure, but it's pretty dang hard to steal something someone can just dissolve to mist to hide it and you can't get at until you kill them, when you can't harm people. 

[Lemiltock]

On 08/11/2020 at 8:18 AM, beewall said:

The Stormfather specifically says more than just an unoathed Radiant.

True, I dont think the stormfather is entirly a correct narrator, look at his interactions with Kaladin and Syl. But thats just what i get from his character, he makes things seem grander than they are.

On 08/11/2020 at 8:18 AM, beewall said:

Yeah, definitely.

The difference is in design, imo. The Fused were not designed to draw a bunch of power, but to be CS who I guess can exploit the natural bonding system to take over a body (and I feel it's implied by the SF that they didn't even have Surges at first). The Honorblades, however, were designed to grant power.

Certainly, but at the level of power weve seen that can direct/draw power from the spiritual, the stormfather is the lowest on the peg power wise and even he does it during an event (I.E. the highstorm always grants stormlight from the stormfather)

On 08/11/2020 at 8:18 AM, beewall said:

I don't think he'd move fast enough to avoid a massive sword. And I mean, if you just stand there holding it tightly enough, I don't think he can like grab your hands and rip them off it.

This is Hoid, he who killed god, if anyone can do unbelievable things its him.

On 08/11/2020 at 8:18 AM, beewall said:

So far as I'm aware, the two main things we've seen him steal are the lerasium (just sitting in a room, with TLR no longer near it), and the Moon Scepter, which seems to have been sitting in a museum or something? Unsure exactly on that one.

Theyre the two main things I remeber, one he had to get through the well of echos (a prison for shards and Kelsier) and the other was guarded. I think stealing an honorblade would be harder, but if it granted stormlight on demand then it would be worth the hastle.

On 08/11/2020 at 8:18 AM, beewall said:

They know of him, but generally not where he is. I feel the Honorblades are probably watched rather heavily by various forces.

I ment this more in a if its suits him hes not affraid to show off

On 08/11/2020 at 8:18 AM, beewall said:

Sure, but it's pretty dang hard to steal something someone can just dissolve to mist to hide it and you can't get at until you kill them, when you can't harm people. 

Certainly hard, but not impossible. He doesnt need to hsrm them, just make them think he has to harm them. Or in the true Hoid way, charm them/goad them into thinking its best for them. An immortal man with significant resources could easily get a blade that gives direct access to stormlight.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

5 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

True, I dont think the stormfather is entirly a correct narrator, look at his interactions with Kaladin and Syl. But thats just what i get from his character, he makes things seem grander than they are.

He's certainly not always perfectly accurate, but on something as basic as "is this more, less, or equal to a Radiant", he can probably be trusted. I mean, he had a pretty good reason to not like Kaladin, Kaladin did kill his kid.

5 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

I ment this more in a if its suits him hes not affraid to show off

Generally, sure, but we see in his thoughts at the end of Oathbringer that he is scared of attracting Rayse's attention.

5 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

Certainly hard, but not impossible. He doesnt need to hsrm them, just make them think he has to harm them. Or in the true Hoid way, charm them/goad them into thinking its best for them. An immortal man with significant resources could easily get a blade that gives direct access to stormlight.

Fair enough, I guess. Lol.

I still think there's probably some reason or another it's just not worth it for (whether it's getting Rayse's attention, because it is tied to the planet super heavily, or is just a massive hassle), but I can see your reasoning.

Edited November 9, 2020 by beewall

[Lemiltock]

30 minutes ago, beewall said:

He's certainly not always perfectly accurate, but on something as basic as "is this more, less, or equal to a Radiant", he can probably be trusted. I mean, he had a pretty good reason to not like Kaladin, Kaladin did kill his kid.

I think relativley, hes only a few oaths in, so his mind doesnt line up with a human. He has also exadurated before to scare/owe people into listening. But there may be something here, but I think its not this, maybe it is better connection to honor. I think the heralds can potentially draw stormlight from one of three things, the Honorblades, Honor himself or the Oathpact  or perhaps a combination. IMO the Honorblades grant the surges, the oathpact binds them ti the rebirth cycle and both together privde the connection to Honor so he can power them directly. 

30 minutes ago, beewall said:

Generally, sure, but we see in his thoughts at the end of Oathbringer that he is scared of attracting Rayse's attention.

Fair enough, I guess. Lol.

I still think there's probably some reason or another it's just not worth it for (whether it's getting Rayse's attention, because it is tied to the planet super heavily, or is just a massive hassle), but I can see your reasoning.

Hes not so cautious as to be worshiped as a god by the horneaters, his worry seems ro be more dirext dont poke Odium, while in Odiums city. And for a power like direct access to stormlight and surges with no oaths, I would say its worth extra risk afterall he risked being found out by finding and bonding his cryptic

[Master Silver]

So along with living plate, does the 4th oath in anyway help mend the Radiant's spirit web as it is called. We know that the spren some how needs to get in, and that bond helps mend the cracks and acts in some ways as a merger. We also see that oaths left unchecked cause issues. We see this in the madness of Nale, and in some ways in Kaladin protect everyone from everything. So does the 4th oath mend this? Do the cousin spren help in more than just forming shiny plate, but somehow help the healing process. It also seems to me that it is dangerous for Radiants to remain at the third ideal. For some reason it seems like both Kaladin and Shallan are getting worse because they cannot progress.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

3 hours ago, Lemiltock said:

I think relativley, hes only a few oaths in, so his mind doesnt line up with a human. He has also exadurated before to scare/owe people into listening.

I'm trying to think, when have we seen him exaggerate things? I mean, he's not really the nicest guy, but generally, he has good reason for what he says.

3 hours ago, Lemiltock said:

But there may be something here, but I think its not this, maybe it is better connection to honor. I think the heralds can potentially draw stormlight from one of three things, the Honorblades, Honor himself or the Oathpact  or perhaps a combination. IMO the Honorblades grant the surges, the oathpact binds them ti the rebirth cycle and both together privde the connection to Honor so he can power them directly. 

That's certainly a possibility too, and I could see it being that, even if atm it's not what I think. 

3 hours ago, Lemiltock said:

And for a power like direct access to stormlight and surges with no oaths, I would say its worth extra risk afterall he risked being found out by finding and bonding his cryptic

True, that's a good point. 

[Lemiltock]

2 hours ago, beewall said:

I'm trying to think, when have we seen him exaggerate things? I mean, he's not really the nicest guy, but generally, he has good reason for what he says.

Hmmm I cant think of anything specific i may be being overly critical of the Stormfather  but I am rereading and will keep an eye out. 

2 hours ago, beewall said:

That's certainly a possibility too, and I could see it being that, even if atm it's not what I think. 

True, that's a good point. 

 

 

4 hours ago, Master Silver said:

So along with living plate, does the 4th oath in anyway help mend the Radiant's spirit web as it is called. We know that the spren some how needs to get in, and that bond helps mend the cracks and acts in some ways as a merger. We also see that oaths left unchecked cause issues. We see this in the madness of Nale, and in some ways in Kaladin protect everyone from everything. So does the 4th oath mend this? Do the cousin spren help in more than just forming shiny plate, but somehow help the healing process. It also seems to me that it is dangerous for Radiants to remain at the third ideal. For some reason it seems like both Kaladin and Shallan are getting worse because they cannot progress.

I think Shallan and Kaladins issues are not oath related persay, and the notion that they need to be broken to let a spren in IMO is exaggerated significantly, sure the main cast fit, but alot of the other radients dont seem broken.

I think (with no supporting evidence) that the plate provided is a side effect of what happens with the secondary spren (binding?), but it its a huge power boost as well as the increase in stormlight efficiency so i doubt there is extra going on here. The bigger question for me is what does the 5th oath provide. But thats perhaps a discussion for elsewhere