The Power of Living Plate

[+Child of Hodor]

23 minutes ago, beewall said:

Do we know this? I'd say they probably are.

To me, this says they are the conduit to the essence of Honor in the Spiritual. 

They were their own conduit when Honor was alive. Now that he’s gone they don’t work the same. They still give surgebinding  to whoever holds them, but no more unlimited fuel. 

Szeth needs breath in Stormlight from gems to use the powers when using Jezrien’s blade. When Dalinar holds it he doesn’t get Stormlight from Honor. Moash has to breath in something from a gem a Fused gives him at the end of OB. 

[LewsTherinTelescope]

1 minute ago, Child of Hodor said:

They were their own conduit when Honor was alive. Now that he’s gone they don’t work the same. They still give surgebinding  to whoever holds them, but no more unlimited fuel. 

Szeth needs breath in Stormlight from gems to use the powers when using Jezrien’s blade. When Dalinar holds it he doesn’t get Stormlight from Honor. Moash has to breath in something from a gem a Fused gives him at the end of OB. 

Szeth also has to wait 10 heartbeats before using the Blade. Perception is extremely important with these things, as is Intent. If you don't know you can do something, you can't, in some cases (see: metalminds, where you can't sense the store until you know it's a metalmind). 

[NameIess]

5 minutes ago, beewall said:

Szeth also has to wait 10 heartbeats before using the Blade. Perception is extremely important with these things, as is Intent. If you don't know you can do something, you can't, in some cases (see: metalminds, where you can't sense the store until you know it's a metalmind). 

I'm pretty sure that waiting ten heartbeats is a limitation of honorblades too, although I could be wrong.

Edited November 3, 2020 by Nameless
Don't want to start an argument or offend.

[Lemiltock]

1 hour ago, beewall said:

Do we know this? I'd say they probably are.

To me, this says they are the conduit to the essence of Honor in the Spiritual. 

Then why did Nale not use huge amounts of stormlight to capture/kill Lift? And why cant non heralds do this?

 

Also that WoB you linked reads he gave them honorblades and access to his essence, not that he gave them honorblades which bad access to his essence. Theres also a couple of WoB that support this.

The evidence is weak, but still more supportive that Honor the shard is required for the heralds to draw stormlight from the spiritual.

 

This one says that each honorblade grants a different set of powers, ie they dont give the same power (access to the spiritual realm).

Quote

ThingsThatMakeMeMad

Do all the honorblades have the same power? How are they different? Do they all share an appearance?

Brandon Sanderson

No. They each grant a different set of powers and vary in appearance.

/r/books AMA 2015 (May 18, 2015)

This one says the heralds have powers seperate from the honorblades. This likely encompaces more than just retrieving stormlight directly from honor but it stands as a function of the hearlds.

Quote

Rybal

Can the Heralds Surgebind without their [Honor]Blades, and if not are they under the same restrictions the Radiants are?

Brandon Sanderson

[...] I will say that the Heralds without their Blades are incapable of the powers you are familiar with. It doesn't mean there aren't other things they can do, but they are incapable of the powers you are familiar with throughout the book.

Words of Radiance Washington, DC signing (March 20, 2014)

This one mentions they use more stormlight, which would not be an issue if they granted access to the spiritual realm.

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

A full-blown Radiant can heal almost anything (cut from a Shardblade included) because of the way the magic works--their soul is literally bonded to Investiture, and it suffuses them in such a way that even the soul is very resilient to damage.

Honorblades are what you'd consider a "prototype" for what eventually happened with Shardblades. An Honorblade can be used by anyone, without need for oaths, which makes them very dangerous--but since the bond isn't as deep, they are far less efficient. They use more Stormlight, for example, and can't heal to the extent that a Radiant can.

So the difference is not in the device that did the damage, but in the method using to heal. Over the course of the first two book, the reader should be able to subtly pick out differences from what Szeth says is possible (in more than just healing) and what Kaladin experiences.

General Reddit 2017 (Sept. 8, 2017)

They are similar to necrosil metalminds  ie if invetiture is there they can use it.

Quote

Questioner

Do Honorblades bestow their abilities similar to an Identity-free nicrosilmind with other Metalborn abilities?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, these are working on similar principles. Same principle, divergent applications by the magic system, but yeah, I would say, they come back to the same principles.

Orem signing (March 10, 2018)

While this one talks about oathgates, Brandon uses they could, but the question on if they still can i.ies something has changed.

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stormlightfan70

Can an honor blade activate an oathgate?

Brandon Sanderson

They could. Whether they still can is debatable.

Footnote: This was resolved in Oathbringer, where Jezrien's Honorblade is used to operate the Oathgates.
/r/books AMA 2015 (June 21, 2015)

 

Edited November 3, 2020 by Lemiltock
Addition to post

[LewsTherinTelescope]

12 minutes ago, Nameless said:

I'm pretty sure that waiting ten heartbeats is a limitation of honorblades too, although I could be wrong.

I doubt it, personally. The ten heartbeats is due to reviving the dead spren, which isn't really something Honorblades would need. And Brandon has heavily implied it's just due to Szeth's perception.

Quote

Questioner

Based on what we know currently about ten heartbeats, why does Szeth require ten heartbeats to bring forth his Honorblade?

Brandon Sanderson

Perception is a very important part of how these things all work, and remember the Honorblades work differently from everything else. Everything was based upon them. Why don't you read and find out what's going on there, but remember that the characters's perception is very important.

Questioner

So then that's why at one point Shallan requires ten heartbeats and now she doesn't?

Brandon Sanderson

Right, it's the exact same reason that Kaladin's forehead wounds don't heal. Because he views himself as having those somewhere deep inside of him and he can't heal until that gets away. And it works for the same reason why in Warbreaker when you bring something to life, your intention rather than really what you say is what matters. It's all about perception.

Words of Radiance Philadelphia signing (March 21, 2014)

 

6 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

Then why did Nale not use huge amounts of stormlight to capture/kill Lift?

Did he use Stormlight at all for anything besides flight? There's a deeper question there that probably answers this too: why hasn't he done anything else with his powers, like Lash things at people or use Division? (At least, I don't recall him doing either.)

9 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

And why cant non heralds do this?

Because they don't know that they can. See the above WoB on 10 heartbeats.

10 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

Also that WoB you linked reads he gave them honorblades and access to his essence, not that he gave them honorblades which bad access to his essence.

I interpreted that sentence differently, then. I read it as "the Honorblades are a piece of his soul, and are direct access to his essence". I feel the emphasis in the audio supports that, but that's open to interpretation I think. He also said it specifically in response to a question about if Honor powered them directly.

13 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

This one says that each honorblade grants a different set of powers, ie they dont give the same power (access to the spiritual realm).

I mean, they grant different Surges either way.

13 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

This one says the heralds have powers seperate from the honorblades. This likely encompaces more than just retrieving stormlight directly from honor but it stands as a function of the hearlds.

No it does not. It says he will not confirm that they don't, not that he is saying that they do. (And based on the Amaram and Taln scene, they've got enhanced reflexes likely, as well as the fact that, y'know, they can make new bodies for themselves when they die.)

15 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

This one mentions they use more stormlight, which would not be an issue if they granted access to the spiritual realm.

I mean, I'd say that's why they're less efficient - who needs efficiency when you've got a super massive amount of fuel?

16 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

They are similar to necrosil metalminds  ie if invetiture is there they can use it.

Anyone can use the abilities if they know about them, correct.

17 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

While this one talks about oathgates, Brandon uses they could, but the question on if they still can i.ies something has changed.

And the footnote says that that was resolved and that they still can. So I'd say that that's just Brandon being cagey about them. 

[Lemiltock]

2 minutes ago, beewall said:

I doubt it, personally. The ten heartbeats is due to reviving the dead spren, which isn't really something Honorblades would need. And Brandon has heavily implied it's just due to Szeth's perception.

 

Did he use Stormlight at all for anything besides flight? There's a deeper question there that probably answers this too: why hasn't he done anything else with his powers, like Lash things at people or use Division? (At least, I don't recall him doing either.)

This doesnt support him being able to access unlimited stormlight.

2 minutes ago, beewall said:

Because they don't know that they can. See the above WoB on 10 heartbeats.

I could see this.

2 minutes ago, beewall said:

I interpreted that sentence differently, then. I read it as "the Honorblades are a piece of his soul, and are direct access to his essence". I feel the emphasis in the audio supports that, but that's open to interpretation I think. He also said it specifically in response to a question about if Honor powered them directly.

Again this support them not having access any longer as honor is dead

2 minutes ago, beewall said:

I mean, they grant different Surges either way.

Yes, different powersets. If they granted different surges and stormlight it wouldnt be different powers as they would all share a common power.

2 minutes ago, beewall said:

No it does not. It says he will not confirm that they don't, not that he is saying that they do. (And based on the Amaram and Taln scene, they've got enhanced reflexes likely, as well as the fact that, y'know, they can make new bodies for themselves when they die.)

It says they cant surgebind (the powers we are familiar with) but implies they have other abilities. This is him being cagy but they do have other powers and the powers they are known for is surgebinding.

2 minutes ago, beewall said:

I mean, I'd say that's why they're less efficient - who needs efficiency when you've got a super massive amount of fuel?

They would be more efficient if they could draw and unlimited resource as their tank would never empty. They are less efficient because they where designed to be wielded by people with unlimited stormlight, hence they do not grant unlimited stormlight themselves.

2 minutes ago, beewall said:

Anyone can use the abilities if they know about them, correct.

Yes use the magic power not generate the magic resource, a necrosil metalmind does not granted unlimited inestiture, it has a set amount thats been stored. 

2 minutes ago, beewall said:

And the footnote says that that was resolved and that they still can. So I'd say that that's just Brandon being cagey about them. 

I agree this was less that they can still and more the "there are questions on if they still can" this wording implies something with the honorblades has changed.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

1 minute ago, Lemiltock said:

This doesnt support him being able to access unlimited stormlight.

No, but it means that that point against it doesn't necessarily mean much. 

2 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

Again this support them not having access any longer as honor is dead

Except Honor the Shard still exists. It's just Tanavast the Vessel who doesn't. (And even he does, actually, because the SF merged with his Cognitive Shadow.)

2 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

Yes, different powersets. If they granted different surges and stormlight it wouldnt be different powers as they would all share a common power.

If something grants one shared power and two different ones, I'd say it grants a different powerset.

3 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

It says they cant surgebind (the powers we are familiar with) but implies they have other abilities. This is him being cagy but they do have other powers and the powers they are known for is surgebinding.

Immortality. Enhanced reflexes. I believe a sort of pain sharing may have been implied but I'm not sure of this. 

4 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

They would be more efficient if they could draw and unlimited resource as their tank would never empty. They are less efficient because they where designed to be wielded by people with unlimited stormlight, hence they do not grant unlimited stormlight themselves.

If you hook an inefficient engine up to an infinite fuel tank, it's still inefficient. The efficiency just doesn't matter much.

6 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

Yes use the magic power not generate the magic resource, a necrosil metalmind does not granted unlimited inestiture, it has a set amount thats been stored. 

The question was if the bestowal of the power functions similarly, and the answer was they use similar underlying fundamentals. None of that says anything about the actual power being granted being similar.

7 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

I agree this was less that they can still and more the "there are questions on if they still can" this wording implies something with the honorblades has changed.

I think it was just that he doesn't want to talk about if Honor's death changed the Honorblades or not. That does not mean it did change them much, just that it could potentially be revealed or hinted at whether it did or not later on. 

[Lemiltock]

11 minutes ago, beewall said:

No, but it means that that point against it doesn't necessarily mean much. 

Except lift escaped him multiple times. So if he had access to power that could capture/kill her why did he not use it. The most likely amswer is he doesnt have that power.

11 minutes ago, beewall said:

Except Honor the Shard still exists. It's just Tanavast the Vessel who doesn't. (And even he does, actually, because the SF merged with his Cognitive Shadow.)

Honor has been shattered. The stormfather has merged with Tanavast cognitive shadow or a part of it. Not with the shard of honor so Honor as a shard is shattered in to pieces and is no more until someone reconstructs it.

11 minutes ago, beewall said:

If something grants one shared power and two different ones, I'd say it grants a different powerset.

But you would also say they have shared power, not that they grant different powers. 

11 minutes ago, beewall said:

Immortality. Enhanced reflexes. I believe a sort of pain sharing may have been implied but I'm not sure of this. 

The first they are definetly known for and the second stormlight provides so I would also say they are know for this. Why choose heralds if anyone holding the honorblades could surgebind with all of honor power especially if we consider Honors penchant for oaths.

11 minutes ago, beewall said:

If you hook an inefficient engine up to an infinite fuel tank, it's still inefficient. The efficiency just doesn't matter much.

This would be true if the engine and fuel tank are seperate, if the honorblades draw the stormlight themselves they would not be inefficient. They are only inefficient because they require external stormlight. Which is the point they dont draw their stormlight from the spiritual directly and hence are inefficient

11 minutes ago, beewall said:

The question was if the bestowal of the power functions similarly, and the answer was they use similar underlying fundamentals. None of that says anything about the actual power being granted being similar.

Exactally and the similar underlying fundamentals is they give someone who csnt use the magic access to the magic. Not the ability to draw investiture directly from the spiritual realm.

11 minutes ago, beewall said:

I think it was just that he doesn't want to talk about if Honor's death changed the Honorblades or not. That does not mean it did change them much, just that it could potentially be revealed or hinted at whether it did or not later on. 

Yes it is tenous, but the implication that it could is itself evidence however weak.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

1 minute ago, Lemiltock said:

Except lift escaped him multiple times. So if he had access to power that could capture/kill her why did he not use it. The most likely amswer is he doesnt have that power.

He has an Honorblade and is a Fifth Ideal Radiant, and barely uses any of his power at all. Even if Honorblades aren't the conduit, that's a good question. So I don't consider it a flaw with this theory, until we learn why he used his power so little in general.

2 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

Honor has been shattered. The stormfather has merged with Tanavast cognitive shadow or a part of it. Not with the shard of honor so Honor as a shard is shattered in to pieces and is no more until someone reconstructs it.

The Shard of Honor still exists, as the WoB you cited earlier says. So far as we know, unlike on Sel, Odium does not seem to have moved it out of the Spiritual. As for what he did do, no idea. 

3 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

But you would also say they have shared power, not that they grant different powers. 

I would say they share a single power if asked for more but overall would say they grant a different powerset.

5 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

The first they are definetly known for and the second stormlight provides so I would also say they are know for this.

I mean, those are powers. And as far as we know, Taln was not holding SL when he caught the dart.

6 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

Why choose heralds if anyone holding the honorblades could surgebind with all of honor power especially if we consider Honors penchant for oaths.

Because the Heralds do more than Surgebind, they maintain the Oathpact. The latter is their top priority, the former is a tool to help them doing so.

6 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

This would be true if the engine and fuel tank are seperate, if the honorblades draw the stormlight themselves they would not be inefficient. 

They are not themselves a fuel tank, though. They're an engine with a pipe hooked up to one.

7 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

They are only inefficient because they require external stormlight. Which is the point they dont draw their stormlight from the spiritual directly and hence are inefficient

They do not automatically do so, correct. You'd have to know the pipe was there and open it. (I don't know how engines work, so this may be straining the analogy for all I know, but hopefully it gets what I'm saying across.)

8 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

Exactally and the similar underlying fundamentals is they give someone who csnt use the magic access to the magic. Not the ability to draw investiture directly from the spiritual realm.

They grant an ability when you touch them, if you know it's there. In this case, one such ability is the ability to draw power. (And actually, Allomancy does draw from the Spiritual Realm, so granting Allomancy is granting the ability to draw from the Spiritual, albeit in a much more limited quantity.)

10 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

Yes it is tenous, but the implication that it could is itself evidence however weak.

The implication that fans might think it could and Brandon doesn't want to ruin speculation, is another possiblity. 

[Lemiltock]

19 minutes ago, beewall said:

He has an Honorblade and is a Fifth Ideal Radiant, and barely uses any of his power at all. Even if Honorblades aren't the conduit, that's a good question. So I don't consider it a flaw with this theory, until we learn why he used his power so little in general.

He used his blade, and the only 5th oath radient power we didnt see is plate, which he was never in danger of dieing, however he could have achieved his goal of killing/capturing lift with a 100x lash of a rock aimed at her, or a building wide Division.

19 minutes ago, beewall said:

The Shard of Honor still exists, as the WoB you cited earlier says. So far as we know, unlike on Sel, Odium does not seem to have moved it out of the Spiritual. As for what he did do, no idea. 

Honor is shattered

Quote

Little Wilson

And so are there any Shards that we don't know of that are Shattered?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Zas678's sister

Four, right? Ish?

Brandon Sanderson

Eh... eh... Honor is gone.

Little Wilson

And Devotion and Dominion.

Brandon Sanderson

Devotion and Dominion are gone. There are others. The question is, [is] Cultivation gone or not? I'm not-- I haven't answered that for you. There are others. So this is what I can't-- I'm not gonna <just> share the answer. This is why I'm not gonna give you answers on these things.

Calamity release party (Feb. 16, 2016)

Quote

Questioner

Is Honor still alive?

Brandon Sanderson

Honor? Honor's dead.

Questioner

What about Tanavast?

Brandon Sanderson

So, um, you can assume that there is no funny business going on there.

Oathbringer release party (Nov. 13, 2017)

Quote

Questioner

Hoid says [in Warbreaker] that he learned stories from a place where gods have died. Is that Roshar?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO. I will say this. A god has died on Roshar. Only one, that we know. So, "gods" would not be plural.

Footnote: Brandon is referring to the Shard Honor here, which has been confirmed to be Splintered.
Words of Radiance Philadelphia signing (March 21, 2014)

Quote

Questioner

Was Honor Shattered before or after the Recreance?

Brandon Sanderson

I believe after. I'm pretty sure. I mean, he has memories of the Recreance.

Shadows of Self Chicago signing (Oct. 12, 2015)

19 minutes ago, beewall said:

I would say they share a single power if asked for more but overall would say they grant a different powerset.

 

19 minutes ago, beewall said:

I mean, those are powers. And as far as we know, Taln was not holding SL when he caught the dart.

Yes theyre powers, but the powers we would associate with them.

19 minutes ago, beewall said:

Because the Heralds do more than Surgebind, they maintain the Oathpact. The latter is their top priority, the former is a tool to help them doing so.

And the surgebinding was granted to maintain the oath pact, as was honor granting them stormlight to fuel said stormlight.

19 minutes ago, beewall said:

They are not themselves a fuel tank, though. They're an engine with a pipe hooked up to one.

They do not automatically do so, correct. You'd have to know the pipe was there and open it. (I don't know how engines work, so this may be straining the analogy for all I know, but hopefully it gets what I'm saying across.)

If they generate the stormlight(by pulling it from the spiritual) they are the fuel tank. It stands something is not inneficient if it has an unlimited resource that it generates. Efficiency is not a scale that can account for an infinite. To phrasd this better, How long you can surge bind for using an honorblade while having infinite stormlight is not an efficiency question. It requires that the sorce be limited for effieciency to be equatable

 

19 minutes ago, beewall said:

They grant an ability when you touch them, if you know it's there. In this case, one such ability is the ability to draw power. (And actually, Allomancy does draw from the Spiritual Realm, so granting Allomancy is granting the ability to draw from the Spiritual, albeit in a much more limited quantity.)

The necrosil metalmind draws from its own investiture pool, not from preservation. Thats why they run out, its not a make this once and use it forever, its a make this with X amount of investiture and run it until theres no more investiture. If this was not the case they would not need to be refilled.

19 minutes ago, beewall said:

The implication that fans might think it could and Brandon doesn't want to ruin speculation, is another possiblity. 

While possible, that its questioned implies that the magic system as it stands could result in honor dieing affecting the honorblades.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

9 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

He used his blade, and the only 5th oath radient power we didnt see is plate, which he was never in danger of dieing, however he could have achieved his goal of killing/capturing lift with a 100x lash of a rock aimed at her, or a building wide Division.

When did we see him use Division, or Lash anything besides himself?

10 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

Honor is shattered

Yes, he is. But what does that entail?

11 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

Yes theyre powers, but the powers we would associate with them.

He.... did not say that there were any mystery powers or anything.

11 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

And the surgebinding was granted to maintain the oath pact, as was honor granting them stormlight to fuel said stormlight.

I do not disagree. You asked why have the Heralds if just anyone can Surgebind with the Honorblades, I answered.

12 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

If they generate the stormlight(by pulling it from the spiritual) they are the fuel tank.

No, the Spiritual Realm is the fuel tank. They do not "generate" power, they just let it flow out. 

13 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

How long you can surge bind for using an honorblade while having infinite stormlight is not an efficiency question. 

Correct. The question for efficiency is how much SL does it use to achieve a specific effect. And it is less efficient than a Radiant. Efficiency is just irrelevant if you know it's a conduit. However, the current users do not.

15 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

The necrosil metalmind draws from its own investiture pool, not from preservation. Thats why they run out, its not a make this once and use it forever, its a make this with X amount of investiture and run it until theres no more investiture. If this was not the case they would not need to be refilled.

Except the conduit is not comparable to the metalmind itself. It is comparable to the abilities granted by the metalmind. 

[Lemiltock]

1 minute ago, beewall said:

When did we see him use Division, or Lash anything besides himself?

Which if he had unlimitted stormlight why wpuld he not? He clearly has limited stormlight due to him not using alot of it or glowing like a beacon.

1 minute ago, beewall said:

Yes, he is. But what does that entail?

There is no mind behind the power, it exists and can be sued but Honor no longer shapes it.

1 minute ago, beewall said:

He.... did not say that there were any mystery powers or anything.

He implied they had other powers not granted by an honorblade and worded it with not the powers normally associated with them.

Quote

I do not disagree. You asked why have the Heralds if just anyone can Surgebind with the Honorblades, I answered

Perhaps I ahould word this differently. Why would Honor create a weapon that grants access to his power directly and the only requirement be that the user hold it especially when you consider his desire to hold everyone to oaths. They where weapons created and designed for the heralds, who are bound by oaths and have access to stormlight through Honor

1 minute ago, beewall said:

No, the Spiritual Realm is the fuel tank. They do not "generate" power, they just let it flow out. 

While the spirtual realm is a fuel tank, it is not the fuel tank in question. It is the person holding the honorblade. If the honorblades are conduits to the power from the spiritual realm they esentially become the powersource themselves. Here the fuel tank in the person holding the blade not the spiritual realm. A conduit removes the tank and joins you directly to the source which removes efficienty you have an infinite resource so you are dividing infinity which provides no real information. Hence if they are marked by their inefficiency they do not connect to the source.

1 minute ago, beewall said:

Correct. The question for efficiency is how much SL does it use to achieve a specific effect. And it is less efficient than a Radiant. Efficiency is just irrelevant if you know it's a conduit. However, the current users do not.

Brandon however does, and he talked about ineffieciency and didnt wiggle in the answer.

1 minute ago, beewall said:

Except the conduit is not comparable to the metalmind itself. It is comparable to the abilities granted by the metalmind. 

Yes the same mechanics, gives you the ability to use a specific investiture for a specific purpose. A necrosil metalmind doesnt give access to investiture from the spiritual at all, and is not part of what is granted, its the ability to use investiture that is granted.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

26 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

Which if he had unlimitted stormlight why wpuld he not? He clearly has limited stormlight due to him not using alot of it or glowing like a beacon.

He lives on Roshar, and leads an order of the Knights Radiant. There is zero reason he should be running low on Stormlight. So I expect there's some other reason behind it.

28 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

There is no mind behind the power, it exists and can be sued but Honor no longer shapes it.

Exactly, it exists and can be used.

30 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

He implied they had other powers not granted by an honorblade and worded it with not the powers normally associated with them.

I interpreted "the powers you are familiar with" as Surgebinding, because that was what the question was about.

31 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

Perhaps I ahould word this differently. Why would Honor create a weapon that grants access to his power directly and the only requirement be that the user hold it especially when you consider his desire to hold everyone to oaths.

I am very curious why he made the Honorblades open at all, even if it just grants Surgebinding. Perhaps the Heralds have a way of keeping them safe somehow (I mean, they manage to get their Honorblades somehow when they return each time, whether that's being reborn with them or stashing them somewhere). Because they definitely grant access to Surgebinding with no Oaths.

36 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

While the spirtual realm is a fuel tank, it is not the fuel tank in question. It is the person holding the honorblade. If the honorblades are conduits to the power from the spiritual realm they esentially become the powersource themselves. Here the fuel tank in the person holding the blade not the spiritual realm. A conduit removes the tank and joins you directly to the source which removes efficienty you have an infinite resource so you are dividing infinity which provides no real information. Hence if they are marked by their inefficiency they do not connect to the source.

But this only applies if you know of and use the conduit. When you don't use it, and provide SL yourself, you run into efficiency issues.

Also, this argument applies if the Herald has the conduit too. If hooking something up to infinite Investiture under your definition makes efficiency a wrong term, then when a Herald uses it, it would no longer be less efficient?

34 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

Brandon however does, and he talked about ineffieciency and didnt wiggle in the answer.

Because when we see it's used, it is working at a lower efficiency.

35 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

A necrosil metalmind doesnt give access to investiture from the spiritual at all, and is not part of what is granted

But it is for some powers. Allomancy draws from the Spiritual, and so granting Allomancy is a way to grant the ability to draw from the Spiritual.

[Lemiltock]

7 minutes ago, beewall said:

He lives on Roshar, and leads an order of the Knights Radiant. There is zero reason he should be running low on Stormlight. So I expect there's some other reason behind it.

He did use surge binding  just not large amounts of it. He may have not thought he needed to resort to that and not brought enough stormlight to surgebind at a large scale, if honor being dead didnt affect this then he could have just drawn stormlight straight from the spiritual.

7 minutes ago, beewall said:

Exactly, it exists and can be used.

Yes, but the access that mind used to provide is no longer there. Hence they can still surgebind but they can no longer draw investiture directly from the spiritual through honor. 

7 minutes ago, beewall said:

I interpreted "the powers you are familiar with" as Surgebinding, because that was what the question was about.

That is also likley

7 minutes ago, beewall said:

I am very curious why he made the Honorblades open at all, even if it just grants Surgebinding. Perhaps the Heralds have a way of keeping them safe somehow (I mean, they manage to get their Honorblades somehow when they return each time, whether that's being reborn with them or stashing them somewhere). Because they definitely grant access to Surgebinding with no Oaths.

They do, but they require significant stormlight which adds a hurdle to a non herald using it. Rather than just a you need to hold the sword

7 minutes ago, beewall said:

But this only applies if you know of and use the conduit. When you don't use it, and provide SL yourself, you run into efficiency issues.

Yes if the honor blades are not conduits to honors power efficiency is taken into acount

7 minutes ago, beewall said:

Also, this argument applies if the Herald has the conduit too. If hooking something up to infinite Investiture under your definition makes efficiency a wrong term, then when a Herald uses it, it would no longer be less efficient?

Not if the honorblades grant the stormlight and not honor. If its the honorblades then everyone who holds the blade has unlimited stormlight, if they dont provide stormlight then efficiency is in the mix as non heralds can wield it.

7 minutes ago, beewall said:

Because when we see it's used, it is working at a lower efficiency.

Yes by a non herald who has to atain stormlight in the normal method. The shin have held the honorblades since they where abandoned so they would have know if the heralds could draw on huges amounts of stormlight and try this. 

7 minutes ago, beewall said:

But it is for some powers. Allomancy draws from the Spiritual, and so granting Allomancy is a way to grant the ability to draw from the Spiritual.

Yes, but the example wasnt are the honorblades like allomancy they where likened to a necrosil metalmind.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

33 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

He did use surge binding  just not large amounts of it. He may have not thought he needed to resort to that and not brought enough stormlight to surgebind at a large scale, if honor being dead didnt affect this then he could have just drawn stormlight straight from the spiritual.

It's not like bringing a few spheres along is that much of a pain.

39 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

Yes, but the access that mind used to provide is no longer there. Hence they can still surgebind but they can no longer draw investiture directly from the spiritual through honor. 

Why would Honor's mind be needed to draw from the Spiritual?

40 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

They do, but they require significant stormlight which adds a hurdle to a non herald using it. Rather than just a you need to hold the sword

Well, you need to hold the sword, and you need to somehow learn it can do that, which is probably rather difficult, considering I doubt the Heralds ever told anyone about it.

42 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

Not if the honorblades grant the stormlight and not honor. If its the honorblades then everyone who holds the blade has unlimited stormlight, if they dont provide stormlight then efficiency is in the mix as non heralds can wield it.

But.... you can still use the Honorblade without making use of the conduit. Would efficiency not come into play, still?

48 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

Yes by a non herald who has to atain stormlight in the normal method. The shin have held the honorblades since they where abandoned so they would have know if the heralds could draw on huges amounts of stormlight and try this. 

They don't even know that you can summon one instantly. Why would they know about the conduit?

49 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

Yes, but the example wasnt are the honorblades like allomancy they where likened to a necrosil metalmind.

....and what does a nicrosilmind normally give...?

[Lemiltock]

40 minutes ago, beewall said:

It's not like bringing a few spheres along is that much of a pain.

Yes but the difference between enough spheres to fly and enough to fight is significant.

40 minutes ago, beewall said:

Why would Honor's mind be needed to draw from the Spiritual?

For the same reason the stormfather is needed for investiture through the highstorms. If nothing is required why doesnt wit just start surgebinding, afterall the investiture is just there in the spiritual realm

40 minutes ago, beewall said:

Well, you need to hold the sword, and you need to somehow learn it can do that, which is probably rather difficult, considering I doubt the Heralds ever told anyone about it.

Because the Shin didnt find that out by looking at what the heralds had done and trying to repeat it.

40 minutes ago, beewall said:

But.... you can still use the Honorblade without making use of the conduit. Would efficiency not come into play, still?

So the honorblade now has two seprate components and you need to not use one to consider it. Ocums razor applies here, if the honorbladea provided stormlight efficientcy would never be a question.

40 minutes ago, beewall said:

They don't even know that you can summon one instantly. Why would they know about the conduit?

The heralds didnt bond the honorblades in the same way that shardblades are now bonded so they had nothing to copy.

40 minutes ago, beewall said:

....and what does a nicrosilmind normally give...?

The stored alomantic invetiture. I.E. someone draws investiture from the spiritual realm and stores it in the necrosil metal mind, when the non alomancer draws the now unkeyed alomantic inveatiture. The person using the necrosil metalmind doesnt draw from the spiritual like a normal alomancer

[LewsTherinTelescope]

13 hours ago, Lemiltock said:

Yes but the difference between enough spheres to fly and enough to fight is significant.

Sure, but it's still a small enough amount Nale could carry it around easy.

13 hours ago, Lemiltock said:

For the same reason the stormfather is needed for investiture through the highstorms.

Which is the role the Honorblades would be playing.

13 hours ago, Lemiltock said:

So the honorblade now has two seprate components and you need to not use one to consider it. Ocums razor applies here, if the honorbladea provided stormlight efficientcy would never be a question.

I mean, we know from the Stormfather that the Honorblades are capable of more that people don't know about.

13 hours ago, Lemiltock said:

The heralds didnt bond the honorblades in the same way that shardblades are now bonded so they had nothing to copy.

I didn't say the Honorblades were copying anything?

13 hours ago, Lemiltock said:

The stored alomantic invetiture. I.E. someone draws investiture from the spiritual realm and stores it in the necrosil metal mind, when the non alomancer draws the now unkeyed alomantic inveatiture. The person using the necrosil metalmind doesnt draw from the spiritual like a normal alomancer

No, it stores Allomantic ability. Someone using one still has to burn metals and get power from the Spiritual to use Allomancy. 

[Lemiltock]

2 hours ago, beewall said:

Sure, but it's still a small enough amount Nale could carry it around easy.

Is it, Kaladin needs bags of gems to acomplish anything big (or a highstorm). And if he had not brought enough, or used then to get where he is needed, why would he not use more if he could tap directly into the spiritual.

2 hours ago, beewall said:

Which is the role the Honorblades would be playing.

I disagree here, Honor provided this,

Spoiler

like preservation did for Vin

 

2 hours ago, beewall said:

I mean, we know from the Stormfather that the Honorblades are capable of more that people don't know about.

This doesnt really lean either way, he is a spren and likely saw what the heralds did with honorblades and compared that to what the shin have done and consider it less. But it is possible.

2 hours ago, beewall said:

I didn't say the Honorblades were copying anything?

No but you said if they dont know how to do something. The Shin copied the heralds abilities. I.E. they picked up the Honorblade saw what the Heralds had done and tried to copy it. Given the heralds had no relience on Stormlight due to Honora conduit the Shin would have tried to replicate this. The Heralds however did not bond their blades in the way the shardbladea are bound (see talns dropping) so the next closest thing is a dead eye blade that requiers 10 seconds and hence the shin copied that trait (many years later once gems where affixed as originaly the shards could not)

2 hours ago, beewall said:

No, it stores Allomantic ability. Someone using one still has to burn metals and get power from the Spiritual to use Allomancy. 

No it drains the investiture stored, it still needs a metal, but the metalmind is drained while its used. If it drew from the spiritual it would not get drain, which it does, hence the investiture comes from whats stored in the metal mind. This also explains why the bands of mourning are much more powerful than any other necrosil metalmind, because Kalsier compounded and stored a huge amount of investiture in it. Which wax drained while using the powers he didnt have, proportional to how much he used.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

12 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

Is it, Kaladin needs bags of gems to acomplish anything big (or a highstorm). And if he had not brought enough, or used then to get where he is needed, why would he not use more if he could tap directly into the spiritual.

Well, Kaladin doesn't have an Honorblade, and if he did, he would not know he could enough to use it with Intent. 

13 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

I disagree here, Honor provided this,

  Hide contents

like preservation did for Vin

You think Honor was following them around and fueling them manually the whole time?

14 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

This doesnt really lean either way, he is a spren and likely saw what the heralds did with honorblades and compared that to what the shin have done and consider it less. But it is possible.

For meta reasons, I don't think Brandon would have him say "an Honorblade could make you more than just an unoathed Radiant, but almost a Herald", and have it not mean anything.

16 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

The Shin copied the heralds abilities. I.E. they picked up the Honorblade saw what the Heralds had done and tried to copy it. Given the heralds had no relience on Stormlight due to Honora conduit the Shin would have tried to replicate this.

Assuming that they knew the Heralds didn't need it. They knew of Radiants, they may have just assumed it was similar. Or perhaps they knew of it in the past and forgot about it. I mean, presumably in the past they didn't think 10 heartbeats were required, as they found the Blades long pre-Recreance. And yet, they now assume it needs 10 heartbeats. 

19 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

No it drains the investiture stored, it still needs a metal, but the metalmind is drained while its used

The Investiture stored is what grants the ability to burn a metal. This runs out as you tap it. But burning a metal still draws the power for the Allomantic effect from the Spiritual. 

[Lemiltock]

Just now, beewall said:

Well, Kaladin doesn't have an Honorblade, and if he did, he would not know he could enough to use it with Intent. 

No, he also cant draw stormlight directly from the spiritual. So presumably as honorblades use more stormlight Nale would require more, so he would use surgebinding less. If he had access to unlimited stormlight he wouldnt holdback on the amount of surgebinding.

Just now, beewall said:

You think Honor was following them around and fueling them manually the whole time?

Honor who is practically Omnipresent in the Roshar system (remember Dalinar can surgebind because the Stormfather is everywhere on Roshar) so not a huge concern for him to provide his power to his 10 generals while they fight odiums forces. 

Just now, beewall said:

For meta reasons, I don't think Brandon would have him say "an Honorblade could make you more than just an unoathed Radiant, but almost a Herald", and have it not mean anything.

Perhaps, but then doesnt that diminish the heralds. Why have stormlight be an issue that could be circumvented by holding an Honorblade. Especially given the Honorblades have played a big role in the conflict.

Just now, beewall said:

Assuming that they knew the Heralds didn't need it. They knew of Radiants, they may have just assumed it was similar. Or perhaps they knew of it in the past and forgot about it. I mean, presumably in the past they didn't think 10 heartbeats were required, as they found the Blades long pre-Recreance. And yet, they now assume it needs 10 heartbeats. 

The Shin gound it straight away so they saw the heralds.

Yes but they also didnt summon/dismiss them as this was worked out later by affixing a gemstone to the pommel and so they would have copied off of that and not the heralds, who disnt dismiss their blades.

Just now, beewall said:

The Investiture stored is what grants the ability to burn a metal. This runs out as you tap it. But burning a metal still draws the power for the Allomantic effect from the Spiritual. 

No, they store their allomantic investiture into the necrosil metalmind. The necrosil investiture is used up instead of the spiritual. You drain the investiture from the metalmind. And the amount you drain is proportional to the amount of power used. Wax says he would need to compound to add back into the metal mind, if they drew from the spiritual he could just pour the investiture into the metalmind. 

Something is being taken from the necrosil portion of the metalmind see below.

Quote

Pagerunner

When you tap the nicrosil portion of a medallion, will it run out over time? Or is it like a coppermind, where something discrete is taken, used, and returned?

Brandon Sanderson

Good question! Like a coppermind.

General Signed Books 2018 (Oct. 15, 2018)

 

[LewsTherinTelescope]

3 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

So presumably as honorblades use more stormlight Nale would require more, so he would use surgebinding less.

Except Nale's also a Fifth Ideal Radiant, which I would assume would be more efficient than Kaladin.

4 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

Honor who is practically Omnipresent in the Roshar system (remember Dalinar can surgebind because the Stormfather is everywhere on Roshar) so not a huge concern for him to provide his power to his 10 generals while they fight odiums forces. 

I suppose.

4 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

Perhaps, but then doesnt that diminish the heralds.

No? They're still immortal beings who are reborn into newly made bodies when they die, which is a rather big boost over anyone else.

5 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

Why have stormlight be an issue that could be circumvented by holding an Honorblade. 

Because there's barely any of them, and because the MCs likely won't learn it until late in their arcs.

7 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

Yes but they also didnt summon/dismiss them as this was worked out later by affixing a gemstone to the pommel

That's deadblades. So far as I'm aware, Honorblades don't have gems.

9 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

No, they store their allomantic investiture into the necrosil metalmind. The necrosil investiture is used up instead of the spiritual.

Do you have a source for this? In BoM, the definition of Investiture they give is "the innate ability to burn metals or tap metalminds", so when they say "Investiture", they mean ability, not kinetic Investiture.

[Lemiltock]

7 minutes ago, beewall said:

Except Nale's also a Fifth Ideal Radiant, which I would assume would be more efficient than Kaladin.

I did forget this portion, however it still stands he did not surgebind where it would have made his job significantly easier, and so he is limiting himself for some reason. The most likley is to preserve stormlight as he may need more later.

7 minutes ago, beewall said:

I suppose.

No? They're still immortal beings who are reborn into newly made bodies when they die, which is a rather big boost over anyone else.

This is due to them being cognitive shadows, which admitedly was done to them when tbey became heralds. I think it fits the champions of Honor to have a direct connection to his power than the honorblades having that connection.

7 minutes ago, beewall said:

Because there's barely any of them, and because the MCs likely won't learn it until late in their arcs.

Perhaps, or you could just include a drawback to using the Honorblades that doesnt then require you to retcon how things work because they didnt think of it.

7 minutes ago, beewall said:

That's deadblades. So far as I'm aware, Honorblades don't have gems.

Deadblades didnt either, they where added to give them the ability to dismiss and summon them. It would have been noted that the Honorblade laked a gem when Seth wielded it, or showed it to people as this would be something obviously different about it.

7 minutes ago, beewall said:

Do you have a source for this? In BoM, the definition of Investiture they give is "the innate ability to burn metals or tap metalminds", so when they say "Investiture", they mean ability, not kinetic Investiture.

I posted a WoB, yes they dont understand the relmatics perfectly, but their lack of understanding the mechanics isnt an argument for a different mechanic to take place. Metalminds work by storing and then redrawing investiture for use later, with items like the bands or mourning they are storing allomantic investiture rather than speed, or health etc

[LewsTherinTelescope]

8 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

however it still stands he did not surgebind where it would have made his job significantly easier, and so he is limiting himself for some reason.

I agree with this part.

8 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

The most likley is to preserve stormlight as he may need more later.

I do not agree with this part. Dude surely has access to a decent amount of money, and spheres do recharge relatively often. 

8 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

This is due to them being cognitive shadows, which admitedly was done to them when tbey became heralds.

The immortal part, sure. But the new bodies part seems to be something else.

9 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

Perhaps, or you could just include a drawback to using the Honorblades that doesnt then require you to retcon how things work because they didnt think of it.

a. it's not a retcon, it's an established mechanic in Cosmere books that you often have to know about an ability to use it, and that your perception of your powers limits said powers; b. there only being one of each order is a rather large limit.

11 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

It would have been noted that the Honorblade laked a gem when Seth wielded it, or showed it to people as this would be something obviously different about it

WoR 87. Kaladin does note that it's weird and has no gem.

Quote

For now, the fact that Szeth had not summoned his Blade back to him was enough. Either he was dead, or—as Syl had said—the strange weapon was no longer bound to him. Kaladin didn’t know how to tell. This Shardblade had no gemstone at the pommel to indicate.

 

15 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

I posted a WoB, yes they dont understand the relmatics perfectly, but their lack of understanding the mechanics isnt an argument for a different mechanic to take place.

Metals drawing from a metalmind when you burn them would be a much newer mechanic than Allomantic genes being added or strengthened.

16 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

Metalminds work by storing and then redrawing investiture for use later,

Correct. And the Investiture that these metalminds store is the part of your spiritweb allowing you to use Allomancy or Feruchemy, which under their definition of the term, is called "Investiture". (And would indeed be Investiture, as that's what the spiritweb is made of.)

Why would you need to burn metals if it stored raw Allomantic power?

[Lemiltock]

24 minutes ago, beewall said:

I agree with this part.

I do not agree with this part. Dude surely has access to a decent amount of money, and spheres do recharge relatively often. 

They do, but it is still limited and thus he wpuld only use what he needs to when he needs to. I.E. if he could accomplish something without surgebinding he would if it was not also using a limited resource as theres no cost  but surgebinding has opportunity cost associated with it (unless you can draw stormlight from the spiritual) in that surgebinding now prevents it later (at equal portions)

24 minutes ago, beewall said:

The immortal part, sure. But the new bodies part seems to be something else.

This is true and i agree it weird, it may be that they leave their bodies on roshar but we dont know enough and this is certainly different from the fussed.

24 minutes ago, beewall said:

a. it's not a retcon, it's an established mechanic in Cosmere books that you often have to know about an ability to use it, and that your perception of your powers limits said powers; b. there only being one of each order is a rather large limit.

Yes intent plays a part, but a mistborn cant intent to use feurochemy and have it happen, theres a limit to what intent can do. Awakening shows this the best, grab something vs grab something when thrown thats not me etc.

This is a limit, but given well have less than 10 core characters not really a limit, all the MCs get an Honorblade and can sudenly blow everything up with bulk surgebinding.

24 minutes ago, beewall said:

WoR 87. Kaladin does note that it's weird and has no gem.

I stand corrected, thanks for the link i missed this on my most recent reread

 

24 minutes ago, beewall said:

Metals drawing from a metalmind when you burn them would be a much newer mechanic than Allomantic genes being added or strengthened.

Newer doesnt mean they understand it better.

24 minutes ago, beewall said:

Correct. And the Investiture that these metalminds store is the part of your spiritweb allowing you to use Allomancy or Feruchemy, which under their definition of the term, is called "Investiture". (And would indeed be Investiture, as that's what the spiritweb is made of.)

They dont store your spirit web, they store the investiture used for purpose, when a normal metalmind is used they store their own things(health etc) which is converted to investiture and then they draw that investiture out and use it as it was store. They cant store weight and draw out speed.

24 minutes ago, beewall said:

Why would you need to burn metals if it stored raw Allomantic power?

To key the investiture, and this may be an intent thing here, not realise the investiture is already keyed. However when Wax uses the bands of mourning the specific abilities investiture is used, proportional to  how much he draws. If it just gave the ability the amount used would only be a function of time, not time and effort (for lack of a better word).

[LewsTherinTelescope]

3 hours ago, Lemiltock said:

They do, but it is still limited and thus he wpuld only use what he needs to when he needs to. I.E. if he could accomplish something without surgebinding he would if it was not also using a limited resource as theres no cost  but surgebinding has opportunity cost associated with it (unless you can draw stormlight from the spiritual) in that surgebinding now prevents it later (at equal portions)

There were definitely points where just a little Surgebinding would make it easier, of a small enough amount to not really matter.

3 hours ago, Lemiltock said:

it may be that they leave their bodies on roshar

Nah, it's confirmed new bodies get made. Which is... weird.

3 hours ago, Lemiltock said:

Yes intent plays a part, but a mistborn cant intent to use feurochemy and have it happen, theres a limit to what intent can do. Awakening shows this the best, grab something vs grab something when thrown thats not me etc.

Sure, Intent can only do what something is able to do. Under this theory, drawing from the Spiritual is something it can do, thus Intent can use it.

3 hours ago, Lemiltock said:

This is a limit, but given well have less than 10 core characters not really a limit, all the MCs get an Honorblade and can sudenly blow everything up with bulk surgebinding.

Well, the MCs currently have zero Honorblades, and the plot going to the place that has them is probably Book 5 stuff, so they probably won't even get them till near the climax, I feel.

3 hours ago, Lemiltock said:

I stand corrected, thanks for the link i missed this on my most recent reread

Heh, yeah, there's a lot of small details like this that get lost. Fair enough.

3 hours ago, Lemiltock said:

Newer doesnt mean they understand it better.

I mean, "that would be a new mechanic" was your argument.

3 hours ago, Lemiltock said:

They dont store your spirit web, they store the investiture used for purpose, when a normal metalmind is used they store their own things(health etc) which is converted to investiture and then they draw that investiture out and use it as it was store. They cant store weight and draw out speed.

Much of what metalminds store is actually part of the spiritweb, as shown by Hemalurgy being able to steal similar things. 

3 hours ago, Lemiltock said:

However when Wax uses the bands of mourning the specific abilities investiture is used, proportional to  how much he draws. If it just gave the ability the amount used would only be a function of time, not time and effort (for lack of a better word).

No, because he can tap more of it at once to get stronger Allomantic ability, and I believe he taps smaller amounts of it at times. I'll have to reread to be sure on the latter part though.