Kaladin and Shallan’s stagnation and continued regression

[Vasherin]

Does anyone else find it very frustrating that both Shallan and Kaladin’s issues seem to be never ending? While on one hand it’s a more realistic depiction of real life issues in that they are rarely resolved in one fell swoop, as a storytelling device I am beginning to find their struggles way too repetitive.
 

It’s maybe not so pronounced with Kaladin. His story and internal monologue is very repetitive regarding each of his hold ups but they at least seem to be dealt with in a realisation that ends up with him swearing a new ideal before another takes its place. At first he was just downtrodden and hopeless, then he had a complex regarding who deserved his protection. Both of these things directly correlated to his oaths. This is why everyone assumes his fourth ideal will be related to his current obsession with not being able to save absolutely everyone. As an overall arc I think this is fine. However, reading his thoughts at the start of RoW is so tedious for me right now. He goes round and round in circles and the exact same concerns can be brought up three or four separate instances in the same chapter. 
 

Shallan’s troubles are less excusable to me. I think her DID storyline started off as a logical interpretation and a smart way to display her talents as a lightweaver and their associated risks. I thought it was beginning to drag towards the end of Oathbringer and I’m dismayed to see that there’s no real end in sight. Which would be fine in my opinion if she weren’t on the cusp of regressing even further. I am assuming that her mysterious fourth persona will end up being the Ghotbloods’ other operative and I think there’s potential for that to be interesting. The fact that this is tied to yet another terrible secret from her childhood, however, is infuriating to me. We know that she killed both of her parents and was justified in doing so in both cases. I struggle to see how she could have done anything that would affect her more as a young child. Not only that but the fact that there’s a bigger, unresolved trauma in her past cheapens Words of Radiance for me. Why didn’t Shallan’s flashback book address the biggest issue from her past?That makes zero sense to me.

I’m sorry to be so negative about a story that I love, I am just really tired of reading the same chapter from an internal perspective over and over again. Again, I realise that it’s a somewhat realistic depiction of mental health issues and I’m sure the overall resolution for both characters will be all the more satisfying for the tedium endured. As a reader though, I’m bored of it and I really think that Shallan all of a sudden having another, darker secret is not good writing. 
 

Is anyone else feeling similarly? Or does someone have a different perspective that can help me see these developments (or lack thereof) in a more positive light?

Edited October 24, 2020 by Vasherin

[Cheat Commando he/him]

2 hours ago, Vasherin said:

The fact that this is tied to yet another terrible secret from her childhood, however, is infuriating to me. We know that she killed both of her parents and was justified in doing so in both cases. I struggle to see how she could have done anything that would affect her more as a young child. Not only that but the fact that there’s a bigger, unresolved trauma in her past cheapens Words of Radiance for me. Why didn’t Shallan’s flashback book address the biggest issue from her past?That makes zero sense to me.

I very much agree with this point right here. When Veil said, "Shallan, you gotta deal with this other thing from your past," I was very confused. But on the other hand, something had to attract Pattern to her initially, so there's gotta be something there, something that hasn't been revealed to us.

I think the drudgery we're feeling has to do with the fact that we're reading this at a rate of one chapter a week. Once we get the book in our hands, we can speed read over the parts we do not enjoy so much, getting to the parts we do want, until we get to the big reveal and find out that Shallan's 2nd big secret actually makes sense and we realize we should reread her parts of the book again and pay attention this time.

This is my hope at least. I trust Brandon Sanderson to deliver a quality story. These chapters are laying the ground work for the rest of the book; they are NOT the book. I fully expect to reach the end of this book and say, "Oh! I get why this wasn't revealed in Words of Radiance." I trust Brandon, as the amazing author that he is, to work his magic well.

Hope this helps.

[Shard of Reading he/him]

7 hours ago, Vasherin said:

Is anyone else feeling similarly?

Let's just say I want to slap Kaladin and give him a talking to about how NONE OF THIS WAS YOUR FAULT AND YOU DID EVERY THING YOU COULD, SO GET OVER IT PLEEEEASE!!!!!!

[Lemiltock]

So what youre saying is you would really rather that Brandon not so accuratley depict depression or trauma. Because the issues you raise with Kaladin are what depression is, and just because someone has had horrible trauma (Shallan) does not mean they cant have more, or worse trauma, its not a bag of everyone gets one traumatic event, some people have multiple horrific things happen to them and others have none.

 

As for the more possitive light, Shallans truths are things about her that shes been lieing about, would you rather her final truth be I like chocolate when the others have been so significant? 

Kaladin was born with depression and has had a rough life, you dont just shake those things off and feel happy. From a story telling perspective, Kaladin has been working towards understanding his brand of honor, who to protect, what is right, can a person kill to protect. At each stage hes found deeper questions rather than a simple yes. This is far more satisfying in my mind than if at the end of WoK Kaladin gained magic powers, got a simple answer to his life long questions and suddenly the world was perfect. Journey, before Destination in my opinion

Edited October 24, 2020 by Lemiltock
Answered original q

[Vasherin]

1 hour ago, Lemiltock said:

So what youre saying is you would really rather that Brandon not so accuratley depict depression or trauma. Because the issues you raise with Kaladin are what depression is, and just because someone has had horrible trauma (Shallan) does not mean they cant have more, or worse trauma, its not a bag of everyone gets one traumatic event, some people have multiple horrific things happen to them and others have none.

 

As for the more possitive light, Shallans truths are things about her that shes been lieing about, would you rather her final truth be I like chocolate when the others have been so significant? 

Kaladin was born with depression and has had a rough life, you dont just shake those things off and feel happy. From a story telling perspective, Kaladin has been working towards understanding his brand of honor, who to protect, what is right, can a person kill to protect. At each stage hes found deeper questions rather than a simple yes. This is far more satisfying in my mind than if at the end of WoK Kaladin gained magic powers, got a simple answer to his life long questions and suddenly the world was perfect. Journey, before Destination in my opinion

That’s not what I’m saying. I’m just saying that it’s not making for an interesting read for me right now.
 

I am on board with what you’re saying about Kaladin and accept that it makes sense from a storytelling perspective even if I think the point is hammered home too often. It’s frustrating to read but the pay off will probably be worth it.
 

Shallan being in the exact same position as she was at the beginning of Words of Radiance in regards to actively avoiding memories of a childhood trauma is just not good writing in my opinion. Not to retread what I’ve said but it retroactively lessens the impact and purpose of Words of Radiance in my mind. I’m not saying it’s a flaw in how her trauma is depicted but I just think that moving the goalposts at this point is lazy at best and a rehash at worst. 
 

The characters in this book have had plenty of internal conflict and I understand that it’s a running theme and pretty much a prerequisite for radiance. I am just finding it exhausting to read about at this point. A brief respite while they deal with more external issues would be appreciated. There are also other ways for their internal issues to manifest rather than the same thing happening multiple times.
 

At the end of the day Brandon might well blow my mind with Shallan’s past to the point that I can forgive the cheap tactic and I’m sure Kaladin’s 4th ideal will be suitably epic (or, preferably though improbably, his descent into becoming Odium’s champion). I just had to speak my mind on this because I’m really not enjoying this aspect of RoW so far. 

[ftl]

Shallan's been making progress! It's slow, but it's definitely progress! She's in a very different place right now (with Veil, Radiant, and Shallan) than she was at the end of WoR. Better in some ways. Still struggling in others.

I agree that I think the last truth about her childhood is going to end up being significantly different than the previous two. The most recent two were all about how she, as a child, dealt with her horribly broken household - defending herself against her mother and defending her family against her father.

But we never learned - why, exactly, was the Davar household so storming horrible? There's got to be more there. I don't know what that "more" is, but I'm going to guess it's something different than the previous two truths, so it won't feel like a rehash (and it won't be.)

It's just always hard to see from Shallan's point of view chapters, precisely because she's so "good" at repressing things she doesn't want to deal with, so anytime it feels she's dealt with something she immediately goes "Yep, that's the only thing that was interesting, I'm fine now!"  when she most definitely is not fine. 

[Karger he/him]

You are of course entitled to think what you want.  However both Shallan and Kaladin have made very real progress.  The fact that they are both in danger of and worried about regression is a very realistic part of life.  In the end what happens is up to Brandon and I think we should wait until RoW is actually published before making a decision.

[Wandering Investor]

No, you're not alone. I feel Kaladin and Shallan's story arcs are leaning more into drama than fantastical. Because it's Brandon, I'm confident that the payoff will be worth it, but it is a bit of a slog/frustrating to go some of the beginning chapters. I'm sure that'll change once we get into the meat of the story. 

As someone who has dealt with depression, Kaladin picking himself up was inspiring, and him regressing was, well, depressing, albiet realistic. And I think it plays into a theme Brandon is aiming for, which is that despite the magical oaths, the radiants are still themselves. 

And I was similarly disappointed that Shallan had another painful memory that she was still ignoring. Will have to wait and see on that one.

[Diomedes]

I for one, am glad Sanderson has not resolved this plot.

They both were not at a good place at the end of OB. It would have been really frustrating to open this book to find out their issues have been sorted off screen. 

[Malim he/him]

When it comes to Shallan, I actually don't see it as a regression or more of the same.  Her truths so far have been about things she has done, but I think her final truth, the deepest secret, is something that was done to her.  Something so terrible that it started the whole slide.  I suspect that it was something that Helaran did to her.  My only caveat is that if it's what I'm thinking, it might be too dark for Brandon's style, but it is something that has been identified as the root cause of many (not all) cases of rl DID.  We'll have to see how it plays out.

[+Child of Hodor]

59 minutes ago, Wandering Investor said:

And I was similarly disappointed that Shallan had another painful memory that she was still ignoring. Will have to wait and see on that one.

When Veil mentioned yet another awful secret I thought “Oh, this is her whole arc, I guess. She must have 5 secrets one for each book /ideal. She must have been a full radiant at like 10 and forgot it all.”

Be nice if her 5th ideal was achieved another way. 

It’s hard to top killing your parents in two separate events. Did she murder her baby sibling who has never been mentioned by the rest of her family because it’s too painful? 

Running out of awful things she plausibly could have done as a kid while still keeping her a protagonist people want to succeed. 

I will say I like that Shallan is different from a year ago. I wouldn’t call it progress or regress, she just gets by or The Three do which is interesting.

[IcaroRibeiro he/him]

Shallan arc is becoming less and less convincing and from a narrative perspective is not cool establish her flashbacks in book 2 only to now state she actually has even deeper secrets not explained in her own book

But at least her psychological issue entertains (is anyone really not liking her multiple personality jokes? I find the writing really fun) and is working well as plot-device. She has a clear arc and direction and all things considered she truly feels like a key character in the big scheme of things

Kaladin plot at this point is just miserable circle of pain and suffering, it has not being fun for quite sometime already, his chapters were already my least favorite in Oathbringer and I'm sure they will be again in ROW. I also understand what Sanderson wants to do with him and I respect his decision as an author, I just hope this boy find some happiness in his life he does not deserve, really looking forward for him to overcome his darkness 

Edited October 25, 2020 by IcaroRibeiro

[Lemiltock]

3 hours ago, Vasherin said:

That’s not what I’m saying. I’m just saying that it’s not making for an interesting read for me right now.
 

I am on board with what you’re saying about Kaladin and accept that it makes sense from a storytelling perspective even if I think the point is hammered home too often. It’s frustrating to read but the pay off will probably be worth it.
 

Shallan being in the exact same position as she was at the beginning of Words of Radiance in regards to actively avoiding memories of a childhood trauma is just not good writing in my opinion. Not to retread what I’ve said but it retroactively lessens the impact and purpose of Words of Radiance in my mind. I’m not saying it’s a flaw in how her trauma is depicted but I just think that moving the goalposts at this point is lazy at best and a rehash at worst. 
 

The characters in this book have had plenty of internal conflict and I understand that it’s a running theme and pretty much a prerequisite for radiance. I am just finding it exhausting to read about at this point. A brief respite while they deal with more external issues would be appreciated. There are also other ways for their internal issues to manifest rather than the same thing happening multiple times.
 

At the end of the day Brandon might well blow my mind with Shallan’s past to the point that I can forgive the cheap tactic and I’m sure Kaladin’s 4th ideal will be suitably epic (or, preferably though improbably, his descent into becoming Odium’s champion). I just had to speak my mind on this because I’m really not enjoying this aspect of RoW so far. 

 

12 minutes ago, IcaroRibeiro said:

Shallan arc is becoming less and less convincing and from a narrative perspective is not cool establish her flashbacks in book 2 only to now state she actually has even deeper secrets not explained in her own book

But at least her psychological issue entertains (is anyone really not liking her multiple personality jokes? I find the writing really fun) and is working well as plot-device. She has a clear arc and direction and all things considered she truly feels like a key character in the big scheme of things

Kaladin plot at this point is just miserable circle of pain and suffering, it has not being fun for quite sometime already, his chapters were already my least favorite in Oathbringer and I'm sure they will be again in ROW. I also understand what Sanderson wants to do with him and I respect his decision as an author, I just hope this boy find some happiness in his life he does not deserve, really looking forward for him to overcome his darkness 

Ill quote you bth because i feel you grasping on the same underlying issue. Brandon very early established 5 oaths, and that for lightweavers 4 of these are hard truthes about the radiant. How then is Shallan having another secret either a suprise or poor writing? As others have pointed out this truth may be about something done to her not by her.

 

Also i will note, this is epic fantasy, was Rands growth finished in book 2? Did Frodo not change through out  LOTR, character development is as intrinsic to epic fantasy as the fantastical elements.

[NameIess]

I have been loving everyone's chapters in the RoW preview chapters, and I feel that Kaladin might actually be making progress with his depression, instead of just ignoring it. Shallan feels a little repetitive, I guess, but I fully trust that Brandon will be able to pull it off well. I could honestly see Shallan's final oath being that she had a happy childhood, or that she isn't a monster. I feel like a big part of why it feels like the characters aren't making progress is that we get only one chapter a week.

[IcaroRibeiro he/him]

17 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

Ill quote you bth because i feel you grasping on the same underlying issue. Brandon very early established 5 oaths, and that for lightweavers 4 of these are hard truthes about the radiant. How then is Shallan having another secret either a suprise or poor writing? As others have pointed out this truth may be about something done to her not by her.

But the fact she has hidden truths is not the problem, what I find quite annoying is the fact we already look at her past, the moment to reveal her secrets in past was book 2, and she used it to progress until the third ideal. There is no requirement of the truths to be exactly related to the past, I thought Shallan 4th and 5th ideals would be focused on her current actions and decisions and her past was finished for good. Just like Dalinar past was quite finished in last book and his next oaths are more likely related with his current actions

Edited October 25, 2020 by IcaroRibeiro

[Lemiltock]

8 minutes ago, IcaroRibeiro said:

But the fact she has hidden truths is not the problem, what I find quite annoying is the fact we already look at her past, the moment to reveal her secrets in past was book 2, and she used it to progress until the third ideal. There is no requirement of the truths to be exactly related to the past, I thought Shallan 4th and 5th ideals would be focused on her current actions and decisions and her past was finished for good. Just like Dalinar past was quite finished in last book and his next oaths are more likely related with his current actions

Perhaps her final truth is linked with current events and to share it in the flashbacks from book 2 would spoil it. The flashbacks are not a complete history, their flashbacks to key events, not the characters history, there are countless things missing from Dalinars or even Kaladins flashbacks.

[Harbour he/him]

Not judging Brandon's choices, but at some point (especially in OB) mental health stuff in the books really started to mess not only with Kaladin and Shallan characters but with my enjoyment from reading it.

Its cool and all that he decided to deal with such a hard themes, and he does good job with its depiction, yet my enjoymenet from reading unending cycles of Kaladin depression started to fade away.

At certain points mentall health problems started to overshadow their personalities. Which is, i guess, realistic, but again, isnt good for reading experience (at least, to me, because i know there are people who value this kind of stuff and it really greatly helped them, which is blessing). Im talking purely from enjoyment/entertainment angle here. Because while the fantasy book better have some good messages, morality and help people, they are also ment to be entertaining and bring enjoyment.

Like to me Shallan's fragmentation didnt feel interesting to read at all and i think her split made her personalities equally weak. Cool nod at reality but not fun to read about.

I still question was it the right choice to bring this type of problems from begin with in the context of entertainment and satisfaction from reading fantasy series.

He could have stop with personality flaws Kaladin and Shallan have already had without mental health problems, like, Kaladin overly judgemental nature, hot headness and stubbornes, which he could have kind fight and fix over the course of events, and Shallan learning how to trust people and herself. Something like that.

In a sense, the fight against depression is infinite cycle and fight with the shadow and i dont know if its even should take place in the fantasy books as the major flaw for protagonist. Basic rules of hero arcs dictate that he must have come through full cycle and become better and succeed in the end, but depression, which is the large part of Kaladin, will never fade away, leaving the feel of failure in the end. Which in its turn hurt the feeling of satisfaction after hero succeeded in the very end.

In the end i trust Brandon that he will make me totally cheering for Kaladin in the end of Book 5 and leave to be completely satisfied with the end of his character arc and destination, even if he will still have the same waves of dark grim depression till he die from old age.

[Vasherin]

9 hours ago, Lemiltock said:

 

Ill quote you bth because i feel you grasping on the same underlying issue. Brandon very early established 5 oaths, and that for lightweavers 4 of these are hard truthes about the radiant. How then is Shallan having another secret either a suprise or poor writing? As others have pointed out this truth may be about something done to her not by her.

 

Also i will note, this is epic fantasy, was Rands growth finished in book 2? Did Frodo not change through out  LOTR, character development is as intrinsic to epic fantasy as the fantastical elements.

I just find it very weird that “Shallan’s book” didn’t deal with the most traumatic moment from her past. I understand it from the point of view of escalating the truths as she progresses. However, from a narrative stand point it doesn’t make any sense to me.
 

Lightweavers are unique in speaking truths rather than Ideals and so I think it would have made a lot of sense to keep her flashback book until book 5. Of course that might not have made sense from a narrative perspective. Either way I just find it messy the way it’s worked out.
 

I’m definitely not arguing that the characters shouldn’t develop but Shallan going from “repressing past trauma” to “repressing a different past trauma” isn’t the most riveting of developments. 

[Blightsong he/him]

I don't think Kaladin's viewpoint has been repetitive at all. Yes, he's been depressed the whole time but his inner struggle has gone from denial, to anger, to acceptance in a way that's been very satisfying and relatable to me personally. His character hasn't stagnated at all this book imo, it's actually grown more in these chapters than in all of OB in my opinion.

It's also been apparent to me since book 2 that there was more to Shallan's early past than anything to do with her mother's death, this was hinted at in the flashback scene with Hoid. Then all throughout OB Pattern brought this up. Seems pretty well set up to me narratively as well as realistically, as one of the biggest symptoms of DID is amnesia.

But that's just my opinion. We'll have to see how this all goes in the full book, especially the Shallan stuff.

Edited October 25, 2020 by Blightsong

[Potus]

It would have been to jarring if they got over all their issues in the year between books 3 and 4. Plus, if we had learned every single dark secret that Shallan has during book 2 then what's the point of her character after that? She'd be all cured and mentally healthy, with no character flaws. 

[Greywatch she/her]

This is definitely to each person's taste; personally, this isn't something that particularly bothers me? I found I enjoyed them all the same as before. If not for threads like these, it would never occur to me that people aren't enjoying themselves (anymore?).

[Honorless he/him]

Real life people stagnate and regress. This just felt more realistic to me. Character struggles are just as interesting to me as magical showdowns.

[RazeU]

I think both cases will definitely be resolved in this book. I may be wrong... but I would guess most individual story lines will be tied up to allow the 5th book to more easily focus on the larger story in a more traditional sense of story telling. I will also say it’s entirely possible Brandon can blend these issues better than I can see a way to imagine. 

[agrabes]

I think it's an incorrect assumption to say that Shallan definitely has another secret in her past.  I'm not saying it's impossible either.  I just don't think it's a given that she either did something bad or had something bad happen to her in addition to what we saw in her WoR flashbacks.  I personally think her remaining truth(s?) must be something about herself - her character.  Not events that happened in her life.

My personal opinion/guess is that the secret she struggles with is that her family was never as happy as she makes it out.  I've been rereading the series leading up to OB and picked up on what I thought was an interesting piece of information.  When Shallan talks with Wit as a child, he asks her to imagine the thing she wants most.  After some prodding, she produces an image of her family all happy and healthy together - which implies that having a happy family is her greatest desire and her being a Lightweaver and Wit being Wit, it also implies that the idea of her family being happy is a lie.

Shallan tells herself deep down that before she killed her mother, her family was happy and prosperous.  She believes it was only after she killed her mother that things went bad.  She believes that she is the one who caused her family's misfortunes.  She hates herself for it.  She blames everything on herself.  She even tells Pattern that she hates herself in early OB.  She completely defines herself in terms of her childhood trauma that she believes she caused.  The secret (which isn't really a secret and was basically already revealed in WoR) is that her family was not happy even before her mother's death.  Nothing was Shallan's fault - she didn't destroy her family.  This isn't a secret from us, but it is a "secret" from Shallan herself.  Something she won't allow herself to remember, because remembering it would change her entire identity and self image.

I think we're being set up for it to be revealed in RoW.  Her brothers are with her again.  At some point, she'll reveal that she killed their mother.  And then her brothers will say something like "Good riddance, she was even worse than Father."  Hearing that will start her down the path of releasing her suppressed memories of life with her mother.

[Aon Tia she/her]

On 24/10/2020 at 5:58 PM, Vasherin said:

However, reading his thoughts at the start of RoW is so tedious for me right now. He goes round and round in circles and the exact same concerns can be brought up three or four separate instances in the same chapter. 
 

I think his pov does become a little tedious but going round and round in circles with the same thoughts in your head again and again is according to me, a very accurate way to describe someone who has depression. I don’t mind that in the least. He knows that he is repeating the same in his head and is also frustrated with himself for not being able to let go of the same dark thoughts. 
 

On 24/10/2020 at 5:58 PM, Vasherin said:

The fact that this is tied to yet another terrible secret from her childhood, however, is infuriating to me. We know that she killed both of her parents and was justified in doing so in both cases. I struggle to see how she could have done anything that would affect her more as a young child.

Yes it is a wonder that what worse things could she have done than killing both her parents. But have you never wondered what she did in the first place to attract a cryptic! She was surrounded with lies and deceit even before she killed her mother, that is why she attracted pattern! Of course there was more to unearth. 
 

I would have been very infuriated if there was nothing more to learn of her past. That would leave a lot unaddressed. 
 

On 24/10/2020 at 5:58 PM, Vasherin said:

Not only that but the fact that there’s a bigger, unresolved trauma in her past cheapens Words of Radiance for me. Why didn’t Shallan’s flashback book address the biggest issue from her past?That makes zero sense to me.

I did not expect that she will have no other issues when we never learnt why she became a lightweaver in the first place. 
 

On 24/10/2020 at 8:35 PM, Cheat Commando said:

This is my hope at least. I trust Brandon Sanderson to deliver a quality story. These chapters are laying the ground work for the rest of the book; they are NOT the book. I fully expect to reach the end of this book and say, "Oh! I get why this wasn't revealed in Words of Radiance." I trust Brandon, as the amazing author that he is, to work his magic well.

I totally agree. 

 

On 25/10/2020 at 3:45 AM, Vasherin said:

That’s not what I’m saying. I’m just saying that it’s not making for an interesting read for me right now.

I think that it is just the beginning of the book. It is very common device to have major characters feel out of sync and struggle to only have them come out that much more stronger in the end. 
I think by the time we will have finished the book, we will have loved it. 
Remember how down Kaladin was in   part 1 of twok and by the time book ended.