RoW Chapter 14 Discussion

[Aon Tia]

42 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

What is there to lose?

I have a feeling that Robarien’s efforts to understand the mystery of sibling is going to be instrumental in Navani’s actually solving this mystery. 
So I think they may have a lot to lose. 

[Karger]

9 hours ago, Sandra said:

Knowing Brandon Sanderson, I would expect the plan of Raboniel to be carried out in the first or second arc of this book. 

Yes but I don't think we can expect success.  I think some sort of stalemate is more likely as that makes the conflict more interesting.

2 hours ago, Honorless said:

Doesn't it strike anyone as weird how Odium apparently just listened to the Fused congregation? I thought he'd have a more direct hand in things. He's giving them a lot more leeway than I expected.

That is certainly noteworthy.  However given how well he knows them giving them the illusion of autonomy while weighting the odds seems kind of like his MO.

[+Oltux72]

3 hours ago, robardin said:

Maybe a Fused can't even physically approach the column, much less remain in Urithiru, if the Sibling were up and running. Like, it's more than a Voidlight Surgebinding suppression thing but even a Voidlight cancellation thing (where the Fused perhaps need Voidlight to remain in their host body - Chirri-Chirri killed one simply by sucking out the Light ).

Apparently that was its function when it was fully active.

Yet that does not fix the main imbalance. To the Fused destroying Urithiru to keep it out of enemy hands would be acceptable. To the Knights Radiant that is not an option.

3 hours ago, robardin said:

The construction and founding of Urithiru is still mysterious but we can infer that it was continually in occupation by the Radiants since at least Nohadon's time until the Slumbering, and the Fused have never been able to assault it because of some kind of fabrial installed in it that is still functioning now even with the Sibling "essentially a deadeye". Right? Makes you wonder what the association between the two are.

No, not really. Even with the Sibling asleep and a traitor in Urithiru and almost no Knights Radiant Urithiru did not fall. Attacking it is just suicide. The Fused surely did not try often.

3 hours ago, robardin said:

A dying, possibly raving Honor recorded this message for a future Bondsmith: "Vex Odium. Convince him he can lose." But never said how.

He didn't know. And for Dalinar this has been a strategic mistake. It makes much more sense to negotiate while you still have strengths. He should have offered to release Odium on condition that he leave Roshar and never return or harm anybody there.

[Karger]

7 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

He didn't know. And for Dalinar this has been a strategic mistake. It makes much more sense to negotiate while you still have strengths. He should have offered to release Odium on condition that he leave Roshar and never return or harm anybody there.

Odium would never except that proposal. He needs to kill Cultivation and the Stormfather.

[Gderu]

8 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

He didn't know. And for Dalinar this has been a strategic mistake. It makes much more sense to negotiate while you still have strengths. He should have offered to release Odium on condition that he leave Roshar and never return or harm anybody there.

Odium wouldn't take the deal. The entire point of the battle by champions is that Odium could afford to lose time, while time is the most important thing a human can have. By leaving, Odium lets a new vessel take up Honor eventually, and he leaves Cultivation alone. If he knows that by not agreeing to the deal he will get another chance a couple hundred years ahead, why would he take the deal? He can try as many times as he wants with practically no consequences.

[Mulk]

it's an interesting thought Gderu.  If you're right, I think he's underplaying Cultivation's ability to possibly cause him harm.  The whole thing has the feel to me of Cultivation playing a longer game than Honor did or was capable of, especially where the Diagram is concerned.

The more I read the more I think the first arc ends with Rayse dying and someone else picking up the Shard.  Maybe Dalinar, maybe Moash, maybe someone else.  Depending on who it is, the new Odium would be the next round's villain, or someone else entirely, possibly Cultivation.

It would be really odd if someone figured out how to take care of Odium and then Splinter his Shard on Braize.

[+Harrycrapper]

 

20 hours ago, Rainier said:

He killed at least one Thunderclast.

We're also getting Vasher, either next week, or in two other preview chapters. I'm hoping when we see him it's because of Nightblood.

It seems I'm a little bit out of the loop on this one and I've seen several people saying we're getting Vasher next week. How do we know that?

[+Wax]

Just now, Harrycrapper said:

 

It seems I'm a little bit out of the loop on this one and I've seen several people saying we're getting Vasher next week. How do we know that?

BS has mentioned that chapter 15 has a scientist who acknowledges his mistakes.

[+Bliev]

39 minutes ago, Wax said:

BS has mentioned that chapter 15 has a scientist who acknowledges his mistakes.

yes, he directly confirmed Zahel in chapter 15 last night too on Reddit. *squee*

[Zelly]

Quote

“No,” said a third. “They have made great strides in understanding the prisons of spren, but they know little about the bond, the power of oaths, the nature of the tones of the world. 

YA'LL.  This sentence got me so excited about my crazy theory that music is like the underlying power of Roshar and maybe the cosmere.

Also, I'm loving the dangerous mad scientist vibe from Raboniel.  I can see Navani and her being an interesting duo.

[Rainier]

6 hours ago, Bliev said:

Last night Brandon said as much on Reddit! To wait for next week's chapter to see more of him. yay!

Also, he said so on his most recent livestream, which I mentioned in this thread on Zahel.

[NameIess]

6 hours ago, robardin said:

Maybe a Fused can't even physically approach the column, much less remain in Urithiru, if the Sibling were up and running. Like, it's more than a Voidlight Surgebinding suppression thing but even a Voidlight cancellation thing (where the Fused perhaps need Voidlight to remain in their host body - Chirri-Chirri killed one simply by sucking out the Light ).

Actually, Chiri-chiri didn't kill the fused like that. Rysn crossbowed it in the face, and it couldn't heal without voidlight.

 

Does anyone else get the feeling that Lirin is going to get something to do? In chapter three, Dalinar and Lirin have this conversation:

Quote

“This is a magnificent creation,” Lirin said. “Do you think it could quickly deliver a mobile hospital, staffed with surgeons, to a battlefield? The lives that could be saved that way…”

“An ingenious application,” Dalinar said. “Though Edgedancers generally do that job now.”

“Oh. Right.” Lirin adjusted his spectacles, then finally seemed to find a little respect for Dalinar. “I appreciate what you’re doing here, Brightlord Kholin, but can you say how long my people will be trapped on this vehicle?”

Anyone else think that the ordinary surgeons are going to get a chance to work after the attack on Urithiru renders the Radiant's powers unusable?

[+Harrycrapper]

22 minutes ago, Rainier said:

Also, he said so on his most recent livestream, which I mentioned in this thread on Zahel.

 

1 hour ago, Bliev said:

yes, he directly confirmed Zahel in chapter 15 last night too on Reddit. *squee*

Ah I see, haven't been able to keep up on his livestreams and catch up on his Reddit posts. A lot of good video games and the been getting released in the last 3 weeks and the new Dresden Files book. 

[Karger]

Apparently the nature of immortality and fused culture are going to be a huge deal in this one.  (Brandon mentioned it in his annotation that I completely missed).

[+Bliev]

2 hours ago, Karger said:

Apparently the nature of immortality and fused culture are going to be a huge deal in this one.  (Brandon mentioned it in his annotation that I completely missed).

Yeah I’m surprised I caught it this time. I usually forget completely. :-)

I loved his comment about living for thousands of years...how muddy your memory is after 1 year, or 10–what happens after millennia? What do you remember? Probably only the things you’ve reinforced with very strong emotions. 

[FollowYourMuse]

On 10/6/2020 at 2:21 PM, StormingTexan said:

This chapter was awesome. I am so glad we were able to see the Fused plan. It's been interesting to me to think of fighting a force that never really dies. This war could go on essentially forever and the Fused would have a much better chance of eventually winning a long term war. Now we see motivation to gain a sense of urgency from the fused. If only the KR knew it! 

Brandon so far is doing a great job crafting a team of villains. Sure we have big bad Odium but I really like seeing the individualism and separate motives of the Fused. This is getting exciting! 

I feel like Moash as many have guessed is being set up to be Odium's champion. I mean this has to end with him fighting Kaladin for the fate of humanity right? 

It is interesting the concern the Fused have for 4th ideal KR. They mention they will not be able to use the "suppressor" but I would also assume plate blocks their ability to use their stormlight draining  weapons as well. That would be bad for them and I can see why being more aggressive now is vital before more 4th ideal KR are around. 

Moash is being used to "kill" trap the heralds, I think Kaladin will not be the champion, if that battle will be in the next 5 books, after a 10- year gap it is more likely Lift, Renarin or Taln, but Szeth is also an option. Szeth would also be an option if that battle is in the 5th book.  

On 10/6/2020 at 7:30 PM, Schneeente said:

Hehe, if you knew how insistent some people become that his dad has zero influence on his depression But yeah, I would like to see Kaladin and his dad finally burying their conflict as well! 

His dad is not the one to help him, much of Kal's conflict comes from his dads attitudes on fighting. It would be Lirin coming to terms with and accepting that sometimes you have to fight.

On 10/6/2020 at 11:23 PM, Karger said:

Loosing control of Urithiru seems like a book five thing IMO.  Loosing control for prolonged periods would not really work twice as a method of upping the stakes.

 

On 10/7/2020 at 1:42 AM, Sandra said:

Knowing Brandon Sanderson, I would expect the plan of Raboniel to be carried out in the first or second arc of this book. 

Knowing Brandon, this is too much of a here is what is going to happen, when has he ever said oh here is our plan and have it go that way? 
 

[FollowYourMuse]

On 10/6/2020 at 4:15 PM, Schneeente said:

How so? The opposite is true. Someone who is willing to sacrifice literally everything, his movement, his luxury, sex, food, any pleasures if someone who is supreme selfless. That's what you want in a leader, someone who looks out for the greater good, not for his own advantage. 

The issue is they are not really sacrificing, the body they take over is sacrificed. 

[FollowYourMuse]

23 hours ago, Child of Hodor said:

Seems like there were two things going on with the Sibling. It was "withdrawing" before the strike happened causing Urithiru not to function properly which made it too hard to live there, which is why the Radiants abandoned it. Whatever "withdrawing" means the Sibling had to have been bonded to Melishi during the strike otherwise it would not have succeeded. The Recreance began very soon after the strike which created the rest of the deadeyes. Either Melishi broke their oaths or the strike itself damaged the Sibling causing them to be "dead".

I think this is sound, from what little we know, the timeline for the Sibling appears more like what we know of Syl, when Kaladin was struggling and near to breaking oaths she was withdrawing, and after her first bond broke she Slept. 
If Meleshi was contemplating things that would break his oath, and or moving in a direction in conflict, the Sibling would be withdrawing, and when Meleshi "died" or broke his bond the sibling went to "sleep".
 

[Schneeente]

1 hour ago, FollowYourMuse said:

The issue is they are not really sacrificing, the body they take over is sacrificed. 

Excuse me? Just to confirm, you are not sarcastic? 

[+Oltux72]

2 hours ago, FollowYourMuse said:

His dad is not the one to help him, much of Kal's conflict comes from his dads attitudes on fighting. It would be Lirin coming to terms with and accepting that sometimes you have to fight.

Lirin is not altogether wrong. If you wished to really protect everybody, you'd have to stop fighting. Fighting means killing.

Now, you may find Lirin's stance unrealistic. Yet we have to ask what exactly is his problem, for he draws logical conclusions. Kaladin cannot protect those he kills in a fight. Nor can he fight without killing. He'd put himself into a disadvantage betraying his people. Dalinar reminded him (though on the one enemy Kaladin had logical reasons for his approach). Thus the issue is not Lirin's reasoning, but his goal. It is not realistic to protect everybody. People have competing and incompatible goals and interests.
In the end you fight for somebody.

[+Bliev]

12 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Lirin is not altogether wrong. If you wished to really protect everybody, you'd have to stop fighting. Fighting means killing.

Now, you may find Lirin's stance unrealistic. Yet we have to ask what exactly is his problem, for he draws logical conclusions. Kaladin cannot protect those he kills in a fight. Nor can he fight without killing. He'd put himself into a disadvantage betraying his people. Dalinar reminded him (though on the one enemy Kaladin had logical reasons for his approach). Thus the issue is not Lirin's reasoning, but his goal. It is not realistic to protect everybody. People have competing and incompatible goals and interests.
In the end you fight for somebody.

yeah, I mean, this is precisely what Kal was dealing with in WOK, right? Syl and he were talking about how conflicted they felt killing the Listeners at that time. He's absolutely internalized much of Lirin's teachings, and still has. He still weeps for those he cannot save. He still does not accept when others make choices that put themselves in danger. He is in so many ways his father. But isn't that the way of many children? We become our parents in ways we don't quite understand, but eventually, if we're lucky, we come around to understanding later in life. I think both of them are reasonable. But they have to accept the other, regardless. 

Glennon Doyle (the author) has a chapter in her most recent book that says this:

Quote

Every time you’re given a choice between disappointing someone else and disappointing yourself, your duty is to disappoint that someone else. Your job, throughout your entire life, is to disappoint as many people as it takes to avoid disappointing yourself.

She says this is particularly true when it comes to disappointing your parents. I feel that this is particularly apropos for Kal and Lirin: Kal cannot avoid disappointing his father unless he disappoints himself. But the role of a parent is to accept that you've raised them up to make those decisions themselves, and your disappointment is about *you*, not them. I absolutely cannot wait to see them delve deeper into this. 

[Sandra]

3 hours ago, FollowYourMuse said:

Knowing Brandon, this is too much of a here is what is going to happen, when has he ever said oh here is our plan and have it go that way? 

I agree, I don't think the plan will be carried out the way she planned it either  

 

[+Oltux72]

56 minutes ago, Bliev said:

yeah, I mean, this is precisely what Kal was dealing with in WOK, right? Syl and he were talking about how conflicted they felt killing the Listeners at that time. He's absolutely internalized much of Lirin's teachings, and still has. He still weeps for those he cannot save.

Well, that is exactly contrary to what Lirin preaches. He would tell you that you have to know where you can make a difference and not to despair when you cannot.

56 minutes ago, Bliev said:

He still does not accept when others make choices that put themselves in danger.

Well, yes, Lrin disapproves of that, but the issue does arise precisely because Kaladin is leading a fighting force.

56 minutes ago, Bliev said:

He is in so many ways his father. But isn't that the way of many children? We become our parents in ways we don't quite understand, but eventually, if we're lucky, we come around to understanding later in life. I think both of them are reasonable. But they have to accept the other, regardless.

This mixes things up. Kaladin has distinct issues.

1. inabillity to cope with failure
2. inability to forget that the enemy does not deserve to be killed

Lirin does not have the first issue. He does have the second and his answer, albeit impractical, is absolutely logical. Nor is he the only one with this issue. Even Nale is suffering from it. He solved it by picking one set of rules and deciding accordingly. That is the Skybreaker solution. But a Windrunner has to understand as he progresses that he fights and kills not for justice (or a particular interpretation of justice), but because his or her foe is in team Odium.

[+Bliev]

52 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

This mixes things up. Kaladin has distinct issues.

1. inabillity to cope with failure
2. inability to forget that the enemy does not deserve to be killed

Lirin does not have the first issue. He does have the second and his answer, albeit impractical, is absolutely logical. Nor is he the only one with this issue. Even Nale is suffering from it. He solved it by picking one set of rules and deciding accordingly. That is the Skybreaker solution. But a Windrunner has to understand as he progresses that he fights and kills not for justice (or a particular interpretation of justice), but because his or her foe is in team Odium.

I interpret this a bit differently. I think Kaladin needs to learn from his father how to cope with the idea that you can't save them all, even as Lirin needs to understand that his son's vision of protection and saving is different from him--same values, different method. But I think they are very similar--SO dogmatic, SO invested. Lirin has learned to shut off that emotion--Kal has not. Both could use a healthy medium, I think. 

I think the distinguishing factor here is that Lirin doesn't think you can kill to protect--he thinks this is antithetical and it is not justified. Kal's order embraces the idea that sometimes protection requires violence. I think good people can sit on either side of that philosophy--but father and son will have to agree to disappoint the other, and still love one another, if they are to progress their relationship. 

 

[+Child of Hodor]

On 10/7/2020 at 10:49 AM, Karger said:

Yes but I don't think we can expect success.  I think some sort of stalemate is more likely as that makes the conflict more interesting.

That is certainly noteworthy.  However given how well he knows them giving them the illusion of autonomy while weighting the odds seems kind of like his MO.

Especially considering Odium seems to be blocking Singers like Venli from comprehending what the Nine are singing to Odium in their special song. It is very suspicious. We saw Odium torment Venli cognitively because she wasn't telling the story the "right way". He could be giving some Fused detailed instructions to carry out in the privacy of his golden room. 

On that note, this whole meeting turned on the "Lady of Wishes" showing up with a detailed plan for capturing Urithiru involving Taravangian and using the coalition's ignorance of Urithiru's nature and capabilities against them. The last thing Odium did onscreen in Oathbringer was order Taravangian to find out what the Alethi have discovered about "that tower".  It seems like this "Lady of Pains" was voted out or fired from the Nine by other Fused in the last desolation and meant to be kept asleep on Braize in the next cycle yet here she is with a brand new plan.   

Edited October 8, 2020 by Child of Hodor