Shallan's bisexuality

[Shardsplinter he/him]

Silverstars

Every time Shallan thinks about Jasnah it's so gay which is #relatable, @BrandSanderson did you realize how bi you wrote her?? Either way, thank you.

Brandon Sanderson

This wasn't directly on my mind while writing, but looking back, I think it was in my subconscious. I'm flattered to hear it.

General Twitter 2016 (Sept. 26, 2016)

So, until now I felt like Shallan might be simply admiring Jasnah and besides this or other WoB there was no canon for her bisexuality. Which is why this episode really excited me, I mean, that Adolin-Veil banter was amazing. And asking her husband (or her alter'salter's) how Dakhnah's breast feel....just great!

So, what do you think: do we officially(in-book Canon) have our first bisexual protagonist???

 

Edit: I'm a huge fan of Shadolin, but we need a girl to ship Veil with ASAP!!!

Edited September 22, 2020 by Shardsplinter

[Stormtide_Leviathan]

Formless is just personification of her comphet, confirmed

[Karger he/him]

I mean Veil at least seems well aware of the attractiveness of the women around her.

Quote

“Adolin dear, swing a Herdazian in a crowded room, and you’ll hit six women you courted.” She narrowed her eyes at the newcomer. “Those aren’t real, are they? She pads, right?”

 

[+Oltux72 he/him]

24 minutes ago, Karger said:

I mean Veil at least seems well aware of the attractiveness of the women around her.

You can't be an effective con-artist without some realism in that department, nor a visual artist.

[Karger he/him]

7 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

You can't be an effective con-artist without some realism in that department, nor a visual artist.

True.  Contrary to the opinion of ever side character in a comedy there really is no way to tell without asking.

[Subvisual Haze]

Veil is just Shallan's id.  Libidinal desires and uninhibited speech.

[Rai she/her]

This chapter read as a pretty explicit confirmation of bi Shallan/Veil IMO honestly... like even before her DID developed Shallan has had some interesting descriptions of Jasnah since TWoK that seemed pretty. Not heterosexual to speak quite frankly. 

The comments Veil were making seemed to be a bit more than just making observations as a con artist. It really came across as explicit attraction (the comments about the legs???? and then the breasts????!!!!!!!) and like Subvisual Haze mentioned, Veil has tended to be more open about her desires than Shallan. 

Edited September 23, 2020 by Rai

[Karger he/him]

48 minutes ago, Subvisual Haze said:

Veil is just Shallan's id.  Libidinal desires and uninhibited speech.

That is not true.  Veil is perfectly capable of subtlety.  She went undercover for months.  Also alternate personas don't work like that.  Veil is just a more outgoing and uninhibited person then Shallan.

Edited September 23, 2020 by Karger

[Subvisual Haze]

4 minutes ago, Karger said:

That is not true.  Veil is perfectly capable of subtlety.  She went undercover for months.  Also alternate personas don't work like that.  Veil is just a more outgoing and uninhibited person then Shallan.

A "person" that Shallan purposefully created 1-2 years ago (and we watched her do it!  First as a role to play and then losing herself in the role)?  A person that she can suppress with intent?  A person that all of her other persons are aware of and share memories with

[Karger he/him]

Just now, Subvisual Haze said:

A "person" that Shallan purposefully created 1-2 years ago (and we watched her do it!  First as a role to play and then losing herself in the role)? 

That is not how alters work.

Just now, Subvisual Haze said:

A person that she can suppress with intent?

Sometimes.

1 minute ago, Subvisual Haze said:

A person that all of her other persons are aware of and share memories with

Veil does not seem to have Shallan's trauma.

[+Bliev she/her]

I’m so glad others read it this way! It definitely feels like Veil is bi or pan in the way she interacted with Adolin in the pub. I’d say that veil is Shallan at her more uninhibited, but not an undisciplined id—more of who Shallan imagines she could be if she were unrestrained by the culture in which she was raised. 

[EggArdent she/her]

On 9/22/2020 at 6:37 PM, Karger said:

Veil does not seem to have Shallan's trauma.

yes, I think veil is starting to try to make shallan face those traumas behind her back or at least help her cope with whatever happened, thats what I got from the last part of chapter 13 anyways.

[Gilphon]

So. I fully believe that Brandon was not intentionally writing her as bisexual during WoK or WoR. I do, however, also believe that sometimes writers can do things accidentally, and that Shallan has several scenes that read better if you assume she's bisexual. 

Now. At the time of that WOB, Brandon would've been well into the process of writing OB. Probably late enough into that it is unlikely to have had a major impact on how he wrote her. 

But that's definitely not the case for RoW. It is totally possible that now that it has been brought to his attention that he accidentally wrote Shallan as bi, he has chosen to intentionally write her as bi. I don't really think it'll ever rise above subtext, though- I think it's likely to stay as stuff like what was in this chapter.

Edited October 1, 2020 by Gilphon

[Greywatch she/her]

I think what this chapter has is more than subtext; this is just text.

[Rai she/her]

Yeah, like... Veil literally said she likes dumb girls because they're easy to impress, in response to Kaladin talking about how everyone likes smart girls (romantically speaking). I don't think it gets more explicit and textual than her shouting "I'm bixesual!" from the rooftops because, again, she literally says that she likes women this chapter. Especially in the context of Brandon mentioning years ago that he didn't intend to write her as bisexual but sees it in hindsight, this seemed like an intentional confirmation of her sexuality to me. 

Edited October 1, 2020 by Rai

[the_archduke he/him]

Shallan is happily married to Adolin.  She internally comments on how much she enjoys her marital activities with Adolin.  She specifically has told Adolin that, regardless of how Veil may talk or act, the Three have set a line that will not be crossed when it comes to intimacy with anyone other than him.  Her only other romatic attractions have been with Kabsal (male) and Kaladin (also male).

So, notwithstanding how Veil may talk or act, what evidence is there that Shallan is anything other than happily heterosexual?

As Shallan has said (of Veil and Radiant) she might occasionally be them, but they are not her.

 

-edit- Additional though I just had.

Could Veil's ogling of women be a choice for Adolin's benefit?  Adolin was understandably upset when Veil was mooning over Kaladin.  If Veil is no longer interested in men, could that be a subconscious effort to reassure her husband that she wouldn't consort with any other man?

Edited October 1, 2020 by the_archduke
additional thought

[Greywatch she/her]

38 minutes ago, the_archduke said:

Shallan is happily married to Adolin.  She internally comments on how much she enjoys her marital activities with Adolin.  She specifically has told Adolin that, regardless of how Veil may talk or act, the Three have set a line that will not be crossed when it comes to intimacy with anyone other than him.  Her only other romatic attractions have been with Kabsal (male) and Kaladin (also male).

So, notwithstanding how Veil may talk or act, what evidence is there that Shallan is anything other than happily heterosexual?

As Shallan has said (of Veil and Radiant) she might occasionally be them, but they are not her.

 

-edit- Additional though I just had.

Could Veil's ogling of women be a choice for Adolin's benefit?  Adolin was understandably upset when Veil was mooning over Kaladin.  If Veil is no longer interested in men, could that be a subconscious effort to reassure her husband that she wouldn't consort with any other man?

If you'll allow me to correct your definition, you seem to have mistaken "bisexual" with "polyamorous"; and "heterosexual" with "monogamous". Bisexual people are as capable of being (and preferring to be) monogamous as straight people. Married people don't lose their orientation, and vows don't erase attraction.

[FeatherWriter she/her]

44 minutes ago, the_archduke said:

Shallan is happily married to Adolin.  She internally comments on how much she enjoys her marital activities with Adolin.  She specifically has told Adolin that, regardless of how Veil may talk or act, the Three have set a line that will not be crossed when it comes to intimacy with anyone other than him.  Her only other romatic attractions have been with Kabsal (male) and Kaladin (also male).

So, notwithstanding how Veil may talk or act, what evidence is there that Shallan is anything other than happily heterosexual?

As Shallan has said (of Veil and Radiant) she might occasionally be them, but they are not her.

 

-edit- Additional though I just had.

Could Veil's ogling of women be a choice for Adolin's benefit?  Adolin was understandably upset when Veil was mooning over Kaladin.  If Veil is no longer interested in men, could that be a subconscious effort to reassure her husband that she wouldn't consort with any other man?

I mean, the original speculation regarding Shallan being bi was because there were a lot of interactions and descriptions in WoK with Jasnah that easily read as Shallan having a crush. In all honesty, Shallan doesn't really ever express attraction to Kabsal, it's just that he expresses attraction toward her, which she finds both flattering and a bit frightening.

I think, as we said, that probably wasn't Brandon's original intent, but hey authorial intent changes! And when Silver sent that tweet, Brandon acknowledged that the reading was valid and now, it seems, is moving to make that reading more explicitly canon. The bi Shallan reading started long before Veil even existed.

Sure, Veil has an easier time talking about finding people attractive or flirting because she's a darkeyed, streetwise con woman. She's rough and tumble, she drinks Horneater white, she asks salacious questions about the pretty girl across the bar. Shallan the lighteyed Highprincess, as a person, is far less likely to say things like that in a public setting. She's got to be a little more reserved and refined, because that's who she is.

But it doesn't change the fact that it was Shallan who was always all flustered about how gorgeous and perfect and well-endowed her mentor in Kharbranth was. The one who said that Jasnah "opened a box of storms in [her]" and all that. 

I will say, I really like that Shallan and Veil seem to have the kind of relationship with Adolin where they talk about former crushes or who they find attractive. Even in a light, teasing sort of way to make Adolin blush about his old girlfriends. I think it's much healthier for a relationship to be able to discuss things like that rather than acting like monogamy means you're never allowed to find anyone else attractive for the rest of your life. 

[Karger he/him]

Veil might also have a different sexual orientation then Shallan.  There would definitely be precedent.

[Stormtide_Leviathan]

19 hours ago, the_archduke said:

Shallan is happily married to Adolin.  She internally comments on how much she enjoys her marital activities with Adolin.  She specifically has told Adolin that, regardless of how Veil may talk or act, the Three have set a line that will not be crossed when it comes to intimacy with anyone other than him.  Her only other romatic attractions have been with Kabsal (male) and Kaladin (also male).

So, notwithstanding how Veil may talk or act, what evidence is there that Shallan is anything other than happily heterosexual?

As Shallan has said (of Veil and Radiant) she might occasionally be them, but they are not her.

 

-edit- Additional though I just had.

Could Veil's ogling of women be a choice for Adolin's benefit?  Adolin was understandably upset when Veil was mooning over Kaladin.  If Veil is no longer interested in men, could that be a subconscious effort to reassure her husband that she wouldn't consort with any other man?

Shallan is happily married to Adolin, but that has exactly 0 effect on whether or not she's bi since a bi person can be happily married to a guy. And the idea that she's bi has been kicking around since book one, since her interactions with Jasnah were read by many as a crush, to which brandon said he didn't intend this but it was a valid interpretation.

So between this chapter and that, there's definitely evidence she could be something other than happily het.

 

Is it possible that veil is ogling other women for Adolin's benefit? It's possible that's what he's going for, I suppose, but frankly I'd be pissed at brandon if that's what's happening and I like to think he's better than that. It is way, way too common for people to think bi women are just doing it for men's attention, which is just. Not true, and is an idea that harms so many bi people. Plus, sexuality isn't a choice and while Shallan's magic DID complicates things a little it doesn't seem like she has enough control over her alters to make one of them gay. Plus, sexuality being a choice is way too prevalent an idea and I like to think Brandon wouldn't perpetuate it even if it would make slightly more sense in this particular narrative than it does in reality

Edited October 2, 2020 by Stormtide_Leviathan