RoW Chapter 9 Discussion

[Subvisual Haze]

Quote

“Moash did something to me,” he said. “Put me into some kind of trance.”

“I don’t think he did, Kaladin,” she whispered. “How did he know about the Honor Chasm? And what you nearly did there?”

“I told him a lot of things, back during better days. In Dalinar’s army, before Urithiru. Before…”

I think Syl is onto something here.  Kaladin's rebuttal is kind of wishy washy, but I think there's a good chance Kaladin never told Moash (or anyone else) about his almost suicide, indicating that an Unmade was messing with him.

[Master Silver]

Whatever Shallan's "Formless" persona is, I think it might be terrifying. Whatever trauma shattered her as a child, that then attracted Pattern, Formless might have been her perfect way of becoming whatever she needed in any situation. Whoever she was previously was shattered, and so she changed to perfectly fit any and all situations, and if that included executioner, Formless was a full Knight Radiant that would leave a pile of bodies in her wake. Just had a thought, what if Shallan was created by swearing the 5th ideal (who you would choose to be). I would love if this gets resolved during this book for Shallan. I also would love to see Kaladin have a lasting win for a change.

Edited September 1, 2020 by Master Silver

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine he/him]

24 minutes ago, Eternal Khol said:

The way i see it is, in the context of a Heat Fabrial

 

say the spren is manifested 25% using Zinc (not at all sure if thats how it works, but lets say it does) and then its attribute is expressed at 50% using Pewter.
that Heatrial, will theoretically only be outputting 12% of its total possible strength.(the spren is only manifested a quarter of the way, and its only running at half power. So half of 25% is 12.5%)

but if you manifested the Spren as fully as you can using zinc and expressed its attribute as much as possible using Pewter, then you should be getting 100% output out of that heatrial(assuming everything runs efficiently and there are no other modifiers to enhance the strength of the output)

I think this is mostly right, the way I see Zinc and Brass working is Zinc by drawing forth a particular spren causes the phenomena that they are associated with to manifest, while brass pushing away the spren causes the opposite of the phenomena to be expressed. Both are used as control systems, like potentiometers (like little volume knobs) to control the strength at which the desired effect manifests, and pewter and tin would be added into the control system to amplify or diminish the effect.

The ecology of Roshar doesn't really have tropical or dessert areas, but I see inverse Heatrials being a prime export to Southern scadrial, especially if the spren leaving Roshar problem is solved and if the Rosharan AC units can be run off of medallions. General AC would probably pretty quickly displace personal temperature control.

1 hour ago, Gilphon said:

It sounds like the Honorspren are uncomfortable with what Navani's doing, but aren't going as far as to condemn it outright. That's a stance that leaves open the possibility of spren with more extreme views existing. Are we dealing with the spren equivalent of an animal rights activist? 

I think the Navani spanreed communication is proof of another secret society on Roshar, namely PETS, People for the Ethical Treatment of Spren. Or possibly SETS, Spren for the Ethical Treatment of Spren.

We'll know if its PETS or SETS, depending on whether Navanni gets Red paint dumped on her at Urithiru or in Shadesmar. I honestly hope that this doesn't tempt Brandon to adda Dobby character, yeesh what an annoying side plot that was in Harry Potter.

I have to say, I'm a little disappointed that fabrials manifest in Shadesmar as just spren frozen in place with their eyes closed, and that we got so little description of this interesting phenomenon. Does the fabrial itself appear in Shadesmar? If so do the captive spren just hover in position above the fabrial, or do they hover and maintain their orientation to the fabrial when you move it around in Shadesmar?

Like if Navanni brought her painrial into shadesmar, would a painspren be sticking out of it with its eyes closed, or does the fabrial just not materialize and a pain spren is just hovering near Navanni?

Also, not much information on how the 4th Bridge is actually flying, just some handwavium bits about it being obvious from the principles already established and a repeat of the isolating force along planes.

Don't get me wrong, it was a fun chapter, just a little disappointed in the superficial gloss of explanation, but it's a  big book, there's still plenty of time to explain these mechanics better.

I really liked Syl turning into the 4th Bridge, she's adorable!

[Eternal Khol he/him]

7 minutes ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

Both are used as control systems, like potentiometers (like little volume knobs) to control the strength at which the desired effect manifests, and pewter and tin would be added into the control system to amplify or diminish the effect.

Exactly.

zinc and brass allow you to define a range of power.

Pewter and Tin allow you to select a point within that range

[Georion]

20 minutes ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

I have to say, I'm a little disappointed that fabrials manifest in Shadesmar as just spren frozen in place with their eyes closed, and that we got so little description of this interesting phenomenon. Does the fabrial itself appear in Shadesmar? If so do the captive spren just hover in position above the fabrial, or do they hover and maintain their orientation to the fabrial when you move it around in Shadesmar?

Like if Navanni brought her painrial into shadesmar, would a painspren be sticking out of it with its eyes closed, or does the fabrial just not materialize and a pain spren is just hovering near Navanni?

Also, not much information on how the 4th Bridge is actually flying, just some handwavium bits about it being obvious from the principles already established and a repeat of the isolating force along planes.

 

I think it's not all fabrials but Soulcasters that behave like that, so i guess no her Painrial wouldn't?

 

Also, regarding the 4th Bridge, there was like a page+ explanation about the mechanism powering it, chapter 3 I believe. 

edit: typo

Edited September 1, 2020 by Georion

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine he/him]

5 minutes ago, Eternal Khol said:

zinc and brass allow you to define a range of power.

Pewter and Tin allow you to select a point within that range

Hmm, I think it's maybe a little different. I think Brandon is building this system to mimic electronics, I think he is saying that Zinc and Brass are essential because they function like variable resistors connecting the source of power (stormlight) to the phenomena producing component of the Fabrial, the spren. So by themselves they would cause an effect, but diminishes and amplifiers could be built into the control cage (really just a circuit) to amplify or dimish the triggered phenomenon. This would be like the difference between a pair of headsets with a volume control knob (that has no amplification to the signal) versus a speaker with an amplifier.

[KidWayne he/him]

29 minutes ago, Master Silver said:

Whatever Shallan's "Formless" persona is, I think it might be terrifying. Whatever trauma shattered her as a child, that then attracted Pattern, Formless might have been her perfect way of becoming whatever she needed in any situation. Whoever she was previously was shattered, and so she changed to perfectly fit any and all situations, and if that included executioner, Formless was a full Knight Radiant that would leave a pile of bodies in her wake. Just had a thought, what if Shallan was created by swearing the 5th ideal (who you would choose to be). I would love if this gets resolved during this book for Shallan. I also would love to see Kaladin have a lasting win for a change.

I love this idea, but isn't Shallan a bit young for all that? Are you suggesting that she is actually some old crone who has simply lightweaved herself as a young girl with no memory of how to use her abilities? Wouldn't her experimentation in WoR have found that out? What about the need for stormlight and the occasions where she has run out of it? 

If this isn't right, how has such a young woman already lived enough of her life to have made it to a 5th ideal full KR?

[Ailvara]

So happy to see more and more evidence towards what we've been saying since the end of OB - and more people realizing it. I'm even happy many still disagree, otherwise I'd feel like Brandon has made things way too obvious.

4 hours ago, Harbour said:

Shallan's deeper secrets than even killing her father and mother. He life being lie. Formless.

Can't wait for her to start living her true life. It's bound to get deliciously messy before she does though.

2 hours ago, DeployParachute said:

But...but...Adolin knows Shallan is the real one. He knows her. That's what OB ending told me. And Adolin is never wrong!

In all seriousness though, I thought that after 3 years of not reading Stormlight, and stepping away from Brandon's work for a while that I would be over my distaste for the way Shadolin was done. (I still have not done a full reread of OB, and no reread of of the other books either). But nope, this chapter just brought it all back to me. I'll cop to that, I'll own it. I'm massively @#$-hurt over it, and it has become clear that time has not changed that fact. I don't know how I'm going to read a book where half the plot is going to involve a major journey of two characters whose interactions with each other trigger a mild form of revulsion in me. But, you know, that's my problem to figure it out, and it's not the end of the world if I don't. I'll just know its time for me to bow out of this series.

IKR? Just compare Shallan clinging to Adolin and smelling his shirt to how lovingly Navani thinks of Dalinar.

Brandon can do it, he just chose not to.

3 hours ago, Rainier said:

As for the other....

I've been saying this since WoR, so it's nice to get some confirmation in black and white.

High five.

2 hours ago, Honorless said:

"main Shallan" also a mask confirmed!

The question remains, what will Adolin do once he realizes this. Or Shallan once she truly faces this. It's not like he and "the rest of her" seem married or in love in any way.

[Subvisual Haze]

I like that Navani is basically a lore obsessed reader stand-in.  Gotta find that one plot detail so I can make my perfect integrated theory of how the magic works.

Kaladin continues to be a painfully accurate depiction of living with depression.  It sounds like he's been low level depressed for the whole timeskip.  Poor Kal, at the very least he needs someone he trusts to confide in.

Quote

“Please,” she whispered. “Tell me what to do. I can’t understand this about you. I’ve tried so hard. I can’t seem to make sense of how you feel or why you feel that way.”

“If you ever do figure it out,” he said, “explain it to me, will you?”

damnation that hits hard.

[the_archduke]

Shallan and Adolin are two young lovers who show all signs of still being very much in love.  It is not at all surprising that they act differently than Dalinar and Navani who are both much older and both on their second marriages.

The resolution to this character arc could easily be that Shallan chooses to be Shallan and doesn't let the past trauma define her.

[Kered he/him]

Sibling is a hive mind representation of a the "unthinking animal" spren. And it's sending sassy emails to Navani cus it doesn't want to "wake up" again and she's getting closer to the answer.  

*Removes tinfoil*

Edited September 1, 2020 by Kered

[Sandra she/her]

5 hours ago, Harbour said:

Shallan's deeper secrets than even killing her father and mother. He life being lie. Formless.

Is Shallan secretly some ancient creature with erased memory? Is she Sibling? Is she Unmade herself? Is she Cultivation's vessel or something? I think we need to search something in that direction.

Formless sounds an awful lot like a Kandra to me... But I hope that's not the case. I like your suggestions better! 

[+Wax he/him]

1 minute ago, Sandra said:

Formless sounds an awful lot like a Kandra to me... But I hope that's not the case. I like your suggestions better! 

Kandra swearing ideals and attracting spren..?  

[FollowYourMuse she/her]

4 hours ago, The_Truthwatcher said:

The person specifically mention a new fabrial.

The language doesn't seem to be a Sleepless. On the other hand, many spren talk in weird ways.

Not all Sleepless will be fluent in Alethi or the Women's Script.
I think Sleepless is a good bet, but so could be Siah Aimians, or a Spren. 

5 hours ago, Gderu said:

So we have confirmation that soulcasters are made with higher spren. This seems at odds with the fact that they were made during the time of the radiants. I'm guessing they were made in a humane way somehow, perhaps with the consent of the spren. Also, the fact that the spren have their eyes closed seems important. Could this be how the Sibling is slumbering? If so, what fabrial is he powering now?

 

4 hours ago, Ptolema said:

So on Shadesmar, Soulcasters basically look like Radiant spren hovering around with their eyes closed.

3 hours ago, Innovation said:

And we saw Radiants use them. I can’t imagine why Radiants would use trapped space to spren, at least some of the orders wouldn’t. 

My speculation is that like the Singers forms, and Oathgate Spren that previously fabrials were an oath or bargain between people and spren not a capture, something broke the Soulcaster ones much as the bond to Radiant spren was broken. 

4 hours ago, Agent34 said:

Outside of what happened with Moash last chapter it all feels like his depression and trauma, honestly. 

52 minutes ago, Subvisual Haze said:

I think Syl is onto something here.  Kaladin's rebuttal is kind of wishy washy, but I think there's a good chance Kaladin never told Moash (or anyone else) about his almost suicide, indicating that an Unmade was messing with him.

I agree that much of it is Depression, PTSD, but also that Odium is using that against him. 
Syl points out that Moash knew things he shouldn't have, Moash's words are Odiums, It is the same ploy used on Amaram manipulating his own honor and guilt to get him to give the pain away. After all Odium would be looking for a new Champion, or to eliminate one. 

 

4 hours ago, Karger said:

The one personality we have not yet seen is the one in WoR.  Shallan's child alter.  What is after all more formless then a child?

I agree, something broke Shallan at a very young age, before she killed her parents, something we have only small hints about. That event caused her to forget and suppress her memories and first ideals, and what her connection to pattern was. There are all the signs of trauma and abuse, both with her and all of her brothers. 

 

 

[Eternal Khol he/him]

1 hour ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

Hmm, I think it's maybe a little different. I think Brandon is building this system to mimic electronics, I think he is saying that Zinc and Brass are essential because they function like variable resistors connecting the source of power (stormlight) to the phenomena producing component of the Fabrial, the spren. So by themselves they would cause an effect, but diminishes and amplifiers could be built into the control cage (really just a circuit) to amplify or dimish the triggered phenomenon. This would be like the difference between a pair of headsets with a volume control knob (that has no amplification to the signal) versus a speaker with an amplifier.

Thats almost exactly what i said, you just tossed in some electrical talk

 

and i dont think zinc and brass would produce an effect by themselves.(well, it would effect the spren in the gem but not make any physical effect)

navani says “A pewter cage will cause the spren of your fabrial to express its attribute in force—a flamespren, for example, will create heat.”

indicating that the pewter is needed to create the heat. And the “express its attribute in force” part is key.

in other words shes saying “a pewter cage will cause the flamespren to create heat”

before that there was no heat being created.
if you just used zinc or brass, youd just have a stronger or weaker manifested trapped spren.

 

the “cage” is just all of the metals attached to the gemstone. Attach a piece of zinc and you have a stronger manifested spren.

attach a piece of Pewter and you have heat.

attach both, and you have boosted heat

Edited September 1, 2020 by Eternal Khol

[Sandra she/her]

29 minutes ago, Wax said:

Kandra swearing ideals and attracting spren..?  

Who knows... Hoid did it too. But I don't like that possibility. It's just that the word formless reminded me a lot of Kandra. 

[jamskinner]

5 hours ago, PrinceGenocide said:

Holy...... Yeah.  I never even thought about  how a cryptic would bond with a healthy child , till the second ideal too .

Ooof it would something if Shallan is a construct. But I don't think so. 

Maybe she killed her twin and took her place.  

[Sandra she/her]

44 minutes ago, jamskinner said:

Maybe she killed her twin and took her place.  

That sounds like the ending of a good horror movie... 

 

6 hours ago, PrinceGenocide said:

Holy...... Yeah.  I never even thought about  how a cryptic would bond with a healthy child , till the second ideal too .

Ooof it would something if Shallan is a construct. But I don't think so. 

Shallan is a construct/persona. She even says so several times herself. 

[Karger he/him]

3 hours ago, Honorless said:

Did they get the schematics from someone? Taravangian? During the invasion? Re-Shephir?

Or maybe they are both based on the same universal principle.  Odium can probably see that with his expanded mind and give directions.

3 hours ago, Subvisual Haze said:

I think Syl is onto something here.  Kaladin's rebuttal is kind of wishy washy, but I think there's a good chance Kaladin never told Moash (or anyone else) about his almost suicide, indicating that an Unmade was messing with him.

He told Teft during his WoKs recruitment speech.

Edited September 1, 2020 by Karger

[the_archduke]

Tinfoil hat time.  Shallan calls the hidden alter Formless.  Is this in any way related to the Singers?  Didn't Rlain and other singers refer to the Parshmen as formless ones?  Maybe the deep secret is that Shallan can hear the rhythms due to a singer ancestor?  This is completely crazy I know.

[jamskinner]

4 hours ago, Agent34 said:

Because they are separate people.

People?

[Karger he/him]

1 hour ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

Also, not much information on how the 4th Bridge is actually flying, just some handwavium bits about it being obvious from the principles already established and a repeat of the isolating force along planes.

Brandon said he did not want to explain that all at once.

22 minutes ago, Sandra said:

Shallan is a construct/persona. She even says so several times herself. 

That not how DID works.  I am nothing resembling an expert and yet I can say that with complete confidence.

15 minutes ago, jamskinner said:

People?

Alters are people in most of the ways that matter.  May as well call them that. 

[Master Silver]

1 hour ago, KidWayne said:

I love this idea, but isn't Shallan a bit young for all that? Are you suggesting that she is actually some old crone who has simply lightweaved herself as a young girl with no memory of how to use her abilities? Wouldn't her experimentation in WoR have found that out? What about the need for stormlight and the occasions where she has run out of it? 

If this isn't right, how has such a young woman already lived enough of her life to have made it to a 5th ideal full KR?

Not that Shallan is an old crone, but that after her initial trama, and attracting Pattern, she literally became whoever she needed to not experience trauma, and maybe her family took advantage of this. The mom seems to have known something of Radiants, perhaps so did her dad. But the way Maraze calls her "little knife" makes me wonder if her dad used her as his little knife while she held the Formless personality. Her parents could have even made her think it was some twisted game. Make them sleep little knife. Somewhere, someone talks about the dangers of Cryptics (it might be Jasnah), but the way whoever it is talks about the humming of Cryptics I found extremely disturbing.  

[+Child of Hodor]

2 hours ago, Subvisual Haze said:

I think Syl is onto something here.  Kaladin's rebuttal is kind of wishy washy, but I think there's a good chance Kaladin never told Moash (or anyone else) about his almost suicide, indicating that an Unmade was messing with him.

Yeah, Moash has supernatural help. Unmade is a good call. Dai-gonarthis, the black fisher? 

"Let me no longer hurt! Let me no longer weep! Dai-gonarthis! The Black Fisher holds my sorrow and consumes it! "  

https://coppermind.net/wiki/Unmade#Dai-Gonarthis

Moash heard a voice telling him to give up his pain etc. during OB. Could have been the beginnings of an Unmade working on him that now works through him in RoW..

Quote

Let go, Moash. something deep within him whispered. Give up your pain. It's all right. You did what was natural.

You can't be blamed. Stop carrying that burden. 

Let go. 

- OB CH. 54

 

Edited September 1, 2020 by Child of Hodor

[Karger he/him]

4 minutes ago, Master Silver said:

 Her parents could have even made her think it was some twisted game. Make them sleep little knife. Somewhere, someone talks about the dangers of Cryptics (it might be Jasnah), but the way whoever it is talks about the humming of Cryptics I found extremely disturbing.  

You could do a lot with a child who had Lightweaver powers.  Sounds very dangerous.  Someone bothers you, make them hear something that is not there, see things created by the mind of a child, stumble into rooms filled with blood...  Very creepy.