Shallan's Childhood Secret (Theory Time!)

[Realmatic Shadow]

21 hours ago, Agent34 said:

So even if Lin had an affair she's still a half sister to them.

we also have:

Quote

Questioner

Is Shallan's father her actual father?

Brandon Sanderson

Ah! People asked if her mother were her mother. No one's asked yet if her father were her father... Yes, it was her father. Yes, I will give you that, yes. Her mother and father as presented in the stories were actually her mother and father.

Words of Radiance Philadelphia signing (March 21, 2014)

So any possible affairs couldn't have been the parent for Shallan. Though I do think there is some basis for a theory along the lines of "Only Shalland and Heleran were actually children of Lin and his wife, the other three children came from the affair her mother was having" and that this could somewhat play into what her next truth is.

 

[Govir]

On 9/9/2020 at 9:25 PM, Commander Azure said:

That would be a great idea IF Brandon hadn't said that there's no way to travel back in time.

"But everything is connected in the Spiritual Realm" TM

 

What could be worse than killing (I don't like using the term murdering for these cases) your mother and father...

On 9/30/2020 at 0:15 PM, mathwin said:

Last one should be something unjustified, like killing the new baby because it was annoying or took attention away.

This would also explain why Shallan's mother would be willing to kill her own child.  If, say, six-year-old Shallan soulcast the baby into crystal one day, no one would have any clue what had happened.  Shallan would at best tell wild stories about a sea of beads and a cold sun that would make no sense to anyone.  Then a few years later, Shallan's mother learns from her Skybreaker that Shallan had actually done it - that might be enough.

Ok, you've convinced me (that this would be worse than killing your parents).

However, I would think that her brothers would at least remember a younger child.

[AniaX he/him]

 

On 26/8/2020 at 2:29 AM, Zelly said:

I'm guessing she did something innocent as a child, but with terrible consequences.  Like lightweaving an illusion to trick someone, except it went all wrong and set in motion the downfall of her family.

I'm sad that the impression is that whatever the deeper truth is, it's apparently painful.  Like, even more painful than murdering her own parents.  Is this just Shallan or all Lightweaver truths/oaths not just a reflection about themselves, but a dark one?   It'd be nice for her final truth to be something like, "Despite my deeds I'm not a bad person."

Her final trhuth will be "I am Shallan Davar" and then Veil and Radiant will disapear. 

I don't have proof but either have doubts.

[Bremen]

7 hours ago, AniaX said:

 

Her final trhuth will be "I am Shallan Davar" and then Veil and Radiant will disapear.

I am not an expert by any means, but my understanding is that treatment for DID involves integrating the different personalities.  Instead of disappearing the personalities will become merged into one.

Or to put another way, in an earlier chapter when asked which is the real personality she replies that none of them are.  When the truth is that they are all part of the real her.

Of course this depends on how accurately Brandon wants to write her condition.

[Wyndleblade she/her]

While I would be perfectly happy with a mild reveal for Shallan’s past, wild theorizations are fun. Feel free to judge, but at least hear me out.

Shallan is Vendel reborn(who is formless)

 

How this could be possible:

               Vev, tormented by oaths she broke, the land she helped destroy, and the hero she left behind, searched for a way to forget all what she had done. What would be more devastating to a woman whose traits are healing and caring than to cause destruction. Death was not an option as it would take her back to Braize.  She went to the Nightwatcher and asked for a way to forget all that had happened. Nightwatchers solution—rebirth for Vev as a normal human.

 

Proof(are these a stretch? Yes!):

Mirror in Kolinar/Vendel portrait: A quote from Oathbringer 

Quote

She wore archaic clothing, a sleeveless, flowing gown that was more of a tunic, with a simple belted waist

 This is when she is talking with an unmade and looks in a mirror. Instead of seeing her own reflection she sees a dark haired woman with a white tunic. This is similar to Vev’s portrait in Oathbringer.

The Girl who Looked up:

What if it was a story about travel from Ashyn (where Vedel was born) to Roshar. Shallan takes note of it because some part of her remembers.

Pattern’s comment:

Pattern make a comment that if Shallan asked him to leave, he would and  another cryptic would take his place. The only other radiant whose spren has said that is Wyndle. That was because of her connection with Cultivation/Nightwatcher.

Madness:

I once read a post about how Shallan is actually mad, they contrasted it to what DID should really look like and how it was different. (Disclaimer: I have no experience on the subject so I cannot expand and for all I know that author is wrong)

Heraldic attributes:

Vev’s characteristics are healing and caring. I would not describe Shallan as particularly caring for those not in her family. As for healing she has definitely helped break her family apart (even if it was not on purpose).

Wit/Shallan relationship:

Wit seems shocked to see Shallan the first moment he lays eyes on hers. He knew Vev in previous desolations, he could have recognized her for who she was. Their continued relationship and some of his comments support him caring about Shallan more than others.

Nale did not kill her:

There was a good probability that the Skybreakers knew about her and did nothing. Nale would not want to send Vev back to Braize only to break and start another desolation. (Shallan’s mother was tipped off who inhibited her body and wanted to send the “traitor” Vev back Braize)

The return of formless:

Something is happing with the boons of the Nightwatcher. Dalinar regained his memories, Lift is growing older, and at the same time Shallan is starting to remember a part of her named formless.

 

Conclusion:

Let me make this clear. Shallan is not Vedel, she is Vedel reborn but her own person. Wit once told her needs to make Shallan stronger. Vedel was her past, Shallan is her future. She needs to realize that what Vedel has done does not define her.

[Dresden_Stormblessed]

Shallan is on the 4th Ideal now right? We saw in OB that she was Radiant with plate on.


My guess is that her haunting thoughts are linked to her saying the first Ideal of the Knights Radiant. She may have even not been that serious stating the words and then her mom found out and the entire house of Davar is falling because she wanted to become a Knight Radiant. I'm also akin to the possibility of having her broken the oaths to Pattern early on in the process. Maybe even someone else other than Pattern?

[LewsTherinTelescope]

 

14 hours ago, Wyndleblade said:

Instead of seeing her own reflection she sees a dark haired woman with a white tunic

Wasn't that when Sja-Anat appeared?

14 hours ago, Wyndleblade said:

What if it was a story about travel from Ashyn (where Vedel was born) to Roshar. Shallan takes note of it because some part of her remembers.

Personally, the Shinovar theory seems more likely to me.

14 hours ago, Wyndleblade said:

Pattern make a comment that if Shallan asked him to leave, he would and  another cryptic would take his place.

Probably because we know Cryptics don't really mind death, and they had already selected her, so they decided to just stick with her, I guess.

13 hours ago, Wyndleblade said:

I once read a post about how Shallan is actually mad, they contrasted it to what DID should really look like and how it was different.

I mean, that's probably because originally Brandon didn't intend it to be DID, just a normal coping mechanism exacerbated by having illusion magic. He's since changed it to real DID, including getting a beta reader with DID and digging through medical definitions.

14 hours ago, Wyndleblade said:

Vev’s characteristics are healing and caring. I would not describe Shallan as particularly caring for those not in her family.

Her sometimes matching, sometimes not matching the attribute doesn't really feel like evidence for it to me?

14 hours ago, Wyndleblade said:

Shallan’s mother was tipped off who inhibited her body and wanted to send the “traitor” Vev back Braize

Why would she work with Nale's people, then?

14 hours ago, Wyndleblade said:

Wit seems shocked to see Shallan the first moment he lays eyes on hers. He knew Vev in previous desolations, he could have recognized her for who she was. Their continued relationship and some of his comments support him caring about Shallan more than others.

I mean, probably partly recognizing she has a spren, partly perhaps having gone through some of what she has and wanting to help.

14 hours ago, Wyndleblade said:

There was a good probability that the Skybreakers knew about her and did nothing.

Is there? Once she regressed after killing her mother, there would have been no sign of it. And her mother's death is rather easily explained by the cover story of her father's.

14 hours ago, Wyndleblade said:

Something is happing with the boons of the Nightwatcher. Dalinar regained his memories, Lift is growing older,

a. Neither of those were actually from the Nightwatcher, both were Cultivation; b. Lift was never not growing older, she just plain didn't actually get what she asked for. And Cultivation told Dalinar it's been centuries since she visited a human, so unless she's lying (which she has no reason to do in this case), Vedel would not have been able to have visited her in time to become Shallan, and the Nightwatcher's boons have not been wearing off.

14 hours ago, Wyndleblade said:

Shallan is not Vedel, she is Vedel reborn but her own person

Is that even a thing that happens in the Cosmere? And would the NW even have the power to put her in a person not right there (Shallan's [still unnamed] mother)?

 

 

[LewsTherinTelescope]

9 minutes ago, Dresden_Stormblessed said:

Shallan is on the 4th Ideal now right?

Yep, Brandon's confirmed it.

9 minutes ago, Dresden_Stormblessed said:

We saw in OB that she was Radiant with plate on.

That one is... debatable. Radiant was the real person, but like, Radiant's appearance was still a Lightweaving over Shallan's body.

[Awakened Cremling he/him]

On 10/18/2020 at 10:17 PM, Kitch said:

I think it's going to end up being something with her relation to her mother/father/brothers. I wouldn't be surprised if she actually isn't related to her brothers, considering the emphasis put upon family with her chapters so far. Something along the lines that the real Shallan was killed, and "Shallan" was put in her place because of her bond, so that her family would have a radiant in the family.

Perhaps she discovers her mother in the garden with a lover (either the Skybreaker of some other) and that leads to her finding out her brothers are all not Lin's children and thus she is heir (a big deal in their culture). I don't think that would be traumatic enough by itself but if this is the key to unlocking other memories like if her mother was also not at all she wants/likes to remember but was every bit as abusive (perhaps emotionally instead of physically) as Lin was/became. Basically mostly agree with others posts about her romanticized memories of her early family life being a lie along with trying to think of what the "garden scene" was that she doesn't want to remember. Not sure exactly how an Unmade plays in other than perhaps some or all of the destructive behaviors were caused/amplified by an Unmade.

[Stormfather's Beard]

Something I think is important to remember about Shallan's truths is that they do not have to be important to the greater narrative, they are about self-discovery. It reflects how artists often use their art to explore the world around them and find and show "truth" through their media of choice.

Shallan's final truth, like the others she has said, are about her recognising the truth of herself. In the case of her father, it is recognising that she is strong enough/dangerous enough to kill someone if the need arises. This frees her later to defend herself against Tyn. In the case of her mother, it is recognising that by killing her mother, and letting her father take the blame, she is somewhat to blame for what happened to her family and that she cannot allow herself to hide behind others when she is responsible. From this she learns to find ways to take on responsibility. It isn't that she always succeeds at this, but she is learning to try and accept responsibility rather than leave it to others, even if she wants to. So she goes and deals with Re-Shephir for example. That's not to say she doesn't respect having back-up but she doesn't let someone else do all the work either. Her final truth is probably, like most victims of abuse, exactly what Wit says - that it is ok to accept the pain that is the product of that abuse, whilst also understanding that she didn't deserve it. Many abuse victims, particularly sexual abuse victims, *especially* victims who were children when they were abused, have strong held beliefs that their abuse was deserved, either because of something they had done, or because of who they were.  Shallan needs to understand that, assuming she was abused (highly likely - she reads just like DID in OB) that it wasn't her fault. Once she acknowledges this, she will start to integrate and the personas will start to merge. That being said, reintegration is slow and painful. I wouldn't be surprised if she never gets there, even in the back 5 (assuming she features in them). 

I suspect we won't see her get there this book. It takes years to help people get to the stage of understanding that they are not to blame for what was done to them. Shallan hasn't even recognised that abuse happened yet - she needs to understand that before she can accept that she wasn't to blame for it. 

The question I have is, who did it? My guess is one or both of the parents, or perhaps Helaran. It is less likely to be one of the other brothers because they were also likely abused - hence each of them is also damaged psychologically, although it is possible Balat was involved. I just think that is less likely - he probably destroys things because of something that he saw or was done to him. It is possible that the abuse happened under the influence of the Unmade.

I don't personally see any evidence that the children are not all the natural children of Lin and his his wife (do we know her name?). Nor do I think Shallan is anything other than herself (albeit with multiple personas she uses because that is how DID works). I'm not trying to clamp down speculation, but I would argue that the images she sees when fighting Re-Shepir reflect not who Shallan is, but who Re-Shephir *was*. After all, the Unmade must have existed (been "made") before they could be "unmade". They may have been spren rather than people, or perhaps cognitive shadows of the heralds or similar. Perhaps related to the heralds in life before being captured and twisted by Odium and turned into "anti-heralds". There is too little evidence but so far we have not seen any evidence of reincarnation (that I can think of) within the cosmere beyond the Returned (which as Zahel explains might not actually be true reincarnation). 

[LewsTherinTelescope]

12 hours ago, Stormfather's Beard said:

Lin and his his wife (do we know her name?)

Nope, Shallan's mother is still unnamed.

I agree with your post, and greatly hope that it's something like that instead of just "yet another family member Shallan killed as a kid". The latter would be more "dramatic", but imo also much more of a letdown with her arc (to me, anyway).

12 hours ago, Stormfather's Beard said:

perhaps cognitive shadows of the heralds

The Heralds are Cognitive Shadows. But yeah, some of them at least being people pre-Unmaking feels pretty likely to me, after the Re-Shephir thing in OB. 

[Stormfather's Beard]

8 hours ago, beewall said:

The Heralds are Cognitive Shadows. But yeah, some of them at least being people pre-Unmaking feels pretty likely to me, after the Re-Shephir thing in OB.

Yes I realise that I had written it very poorly - thanks! What I meant was perhaps better described as 'echoes' or 'mirrors', although it is very speculative on my part. Its a bit difficult to be sure about anything with the Unmade because there is so little canon information about them that is reliable. I'm not so hot on realmatic theory - sorry for being unclear. 

[LewsTherinTelescope]

11 minutes ago, Stormfather's Beard said:

Yes I realise that I had written it very poorly - thanks! What I meant was perhaps better described as 'echoes' or 'mirrors', although it is very speculative on my part. Its a bit difficult to be sure about anything with the Unmade because there is so little canon information about them that is reliable. I'm not so hot on realmatic theory - sorry for being unclear. 

Ah okay, yeah that makes sense. Yeah, it's hard to actually say much with much certainty on the Unmade, even though we've seen(ish) 6 lol. 

Edited November 2, 2020 by beewall

[Subvisual Haze]

Based on the new endpage artwork I think we have to entertain the possibility that she is descended from the Herald Chana.

[Govir]

47 minutes ago, Subvisual Haze said:

Based on the new endpage artwork I think we have to entertain the possibility that she is descended from the Herald Chana.

I've been getting this gut feeling in general (that she's somehow related to the Heralds). But we do know that her stated parents are her biological parents, so would it have been farther back?

Unless her mother was Chana...and that's why we don't know her name. Dun dun DUN! (this is a joke)

[JoyBlu she/her]

After much reflection on this thread about Shallan’s secret past I’m going to go with — Shallan was/is a Horneater Princess. It was right in front of us (or at least Kaladin) since tWoK. 

[TheOneKEA]

WELL!

I guess we’ll get to see dual wielded Shardblades from someone other than Nale. How exciting!

[+Bliev she/her]

On 9/2/2020 at 2:22 PM, Bliev said:

1. She "killed" Pattern/broke her oaths to him. On purpose. So after the trauma of killing her mother, she could have denounced her bond and because she wasn't far enough along, it didn't dead-eye Pattern, but did set him back? 

 

Well, I was kind of right. But not completely right. She did kill a spren, just not Pattern. lol

[Mmm]

This may be a stretch, but what if Shallan’s childhood secret was the rift in Elantris. We knew she had access to a seon and I could easily see a young child trying to soulcast a shining city to play in. Destroying a society would easily be worse than killing her spren or parents. 

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

4 hours ago, Mmm said:

This may be a stretch, but what if Shallan’s childhood secret was the rift in Elantris. We knew she had access to a seon and I could easily see a young child trying to soulcast a shining city to play in. Destroying a society would easily be worse than killing her spren or parents. 

Elantris took place a LONG time before SA.