RoW Chapter 8 Discussion

[+robardin he/him]

1 minute ago, Czernobog said:

The Black Fisher as a name is very similar to depression often being described as the black dog. I like this notion. 

As well as Jezrien-as-Ahu suggesting it as the first reason for Dalinar to be seeking solace with him in alcohol in one of the Oathbringer flashbacks.

"I like the pain in your eyes. Friendly pain. Companionable pain. ... Which one got to you, little child? The Black Fisher? The Spawning Mother, the Faceless?"

[agrabes]

My thoughts on Renarin - I think this may be more of a normal Truthwatcher kind of thing.  We know that different orders have different "flavors" of abilities.  Like the difference between Bondsmith and Stoneward tension.  I think this may be the Truthwatcher's version of Illumination.  It would fit with the order too.  Lightweavers use Illumination to create illusions and distractions.  Truthwatchers use Illumination to show the truth.

In this scene, Moash is creating a lie and trying to convince Kaladin of something that isn't true with all his nihilistic BS.  Renarin, as a Truthwatcher, is able to dispel the illusion, show Kaladin that it isn't the truth.  He uses Illumination to show Moash the truth - that he could have been a good man and a hero if he had made better choices.  That it was not inevitable that everyone ends up in endless pain and Moash could have chosen a different path.  It hurts Moash, because he knows it's true that most of his pain and struggles are self inflicted and that's why we see him ask Odium to take the pain.

Edited August 25, 2020 by agrabes

[+robardin he/him]

11 hours ago, xinoehp512 said:

Renarin's done it before, sort of. IIRC, there was a scene somewhere with Adolin where he healed him- and in the process, showed him a 'perfected' version of himsef.

Yes, but that was while directly healing Adolin - the first time, in fact, while hugging him.

I don't think Renarin was healing Moash, or touching him - and it wasn't just Moash who saw his "perfected" self, and the warm white light (that Moash shielded his eyes against), but Kaladin as well.

Remarkably, Renarin himself didn't seem to act like anything extraordinary had happened. Maybe we'll find of why in the next few chapters. Could it be that he... Didn't... Even... Know?

 

 

9 hours ago, agrabes said:

My thoughts on Renarin - I think this may be more of a normal Truthwatcher kind of thing.  We know that different orders have different "flavors" of abilities.  Like the difference between Bondsmith and Stoneward tension.  I think this may be the Truthwatcher's version of Illumination.  It would fit with the order too.  Lightweavers use Illumination to create illusions and distractions.  Truthwatchers use Illumination to show the truth.

In this scene, Moash is creating a lie and trying to convince Kaladin of something that isn't true with all his nihilistic BS.  Renarin, as a Truthwatcher, is able to dispel the illusion, show Kaladin that it isn't the truth.  He uses Illumination to show Moash the truth - that he could have been a good man and a hero if he had made better choices.  That it was not inevitable that everyone ends up in endless pain and Moash could have chosen a different path.  It hurts Moash, because he knows it's true that most of his pain and struggles are self inflicted and that's why we see him ask Odium to take the pain.

Oh, totally agree it was very Truthwatcher-y. But as for it possibly being (as I suspect) a Renarin-specific version of it, due to Glys' "special touch", we had mention already that other Truthwatchers "of the standard type" could do illusions like Shallan could, right? But not Renarin. No, maybe he does that ball of light trick... And this.

And I wonder if Renarin's apparent obliviousness to its effect was part of it, or just Renarin being Renarin?

[Subvisual Haze]

1 hour ago, mosaab said:

there is a theory circulating in reddit that Dai-Gonarthis the unmade was involved in Moash's sales pitch

Yeah I definitely think it makes sense that there's Unmade involvement here.  Moash's words were awful, but the degree and speed to which they affected Kaladin and "blocked" Syl from speaking to him makes me think an Unmade was messing with his head and exacerbating his emotions.

You could read an interesting Spiritual balance occurring in this scene.  Moash and the unmade manipulate Kaladin to confront the darkest version of himself.  Renarin in turn makes Moash see the alternate better version of himself.  Light and dark.

[Harfyn]

I think what Renarin did was a product of a Truthwatcher Resonance (progression + illumination) as well as the influence of Glys, which makes it like, doubly weird. He was using illumination in a way we haven't seen (what you could progress to become), while also being able to overcome the influence of Odium in that room. I think the numbness/void that Moash felt was helping push Syl away, and Renarin's particular connection to Odium through Glys was able to overcome it.

On another note - I liked that we got more of Shallan's internal discussion of her own sanity. Good to see that Veil wants to push Shallan towards recognizing the deeper secret, but what could it be? I have a million ideas:

• Unmade influence?
• Some other family trauma (another sibling, perhaps? Shallan is running out of family)
• Ghostbloods
• Some kind of abuse
• Something with Helloran (maybe he left for a reason other than friction with Lin)
• Something she soulcast at a young age - we see her shy away from Soulcasting in OB - maybe it's connected to this last truth?
• SoH? Maybe... Restares is involved? Grasping at straws here
• "The girl who looked up" - What is something Shallan could have done that symbolized her "Looking up" at a young age? This could be the thing she blames herself for most

Edited August 25, 2020 by Harfyn
some more ideas

[+robardin he/him]

11 minutes ago, Subvisual Haze said:

Yeah I definitely think it makes sense that there's Unmade involvement here.  Moash's words were awful, but the degree and speed to which they affected Kaladin and "blocked" Syl from speaking to him makes me think an Unmade was messing with his head and exacerbating his emotions.

You could read an interesting Spiritual balance occurring in this scene.  Moash and the unmade manipulate Kaladin to confront the darkest version of himself.  Renarin in turn makes Moash see the alternate better version of himself.  Light and dark.

I like this take, it is hot

[Master Silver]

Wow...so glad there was more in that chapter with Kaladin and Moash. I think this was the bottom for Kaladin, and he is going to take time off once he gets back to Urathiru. I also believe that this attack by Moash, was orchestrated by Odium (obviously)...but from the Diagram. Renarian saves Kaladin here, and it will have ripple effects. So instead of Bridge 4 collapsing at the death or betrayal of Kaladin, all of them will continue to carry the Bridge together. I also think that the oaths serve as a defense against the words of Odium. In this exchange, Kaladin forgot "life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination." But his current oaths don't seem to be enough. So he needs to swear the next idea, and perhaps this acknowledgment of and acceptance of not being able to always save the ones you love will in an ironic twist allow him to save Moash. Like, "I will not despair when I fail to protect the those I love, and will save the ones I can." And then  Kaladin fights and nearly kills Moash. Moash as he is dying admits Kaladin is right and swears ideals 1 through 3.  

Also, I am hoping that Moash's time in bridge 4 allows him to do what Amarain couldn't which is see through the lie of Odium and have a redemption arc, not ending in a death like Boromir from Lord of the Rings. 

[Rainier]

2 hours ago, Shardsplinter said:

So, guys, I'm really not seeing the pattern as to when can you heal a long-term injury with Stormlight. I know it depends on how you view yourself spiritually but so far we have:

Lopen: a charachter confident of himself and that considers his lack of an arm a defining part of himself ( or at least his many jokes and coments make it seem like such) is able to grow hack the arm through streanght of will?. I just can't see him as not having accepted yet this part of him. Maybe his confidence from the first time he saw Kal absorb Stormlight on the fact that he once would too helped him change the way he saw himself.

Gaz: a charachter who could never accept that a missing eye was part of his identity was able to grow it back.

But then:

Rysn: a charachter that has always seen herself as intrepide, some kind of adventurer or explorer, with the dream of travelling the world as he master merchant sees a disabilitie that would make all of that at the very least unlikely as part of her identity? ( maybe she thinks subconsciously that she deserves it because of the decitions she took on the Reshi island)

What do u think? Is this all making more sense to everybody else?

One of these is not like the others. Lopen and Gaz bonded spren, Rysn did not. I would say that explains as much as it needs to.

[Harfyn]

1 minute ago, Master Silver said:

Also, I am hoping that Moash's time in bridge 4 allows him to do what Amarain couldn't which is see through the lie of Odium and have a redemption arc, not ending in a death like Boromir from Lord of the Rings.

I'd say Boromir's death was a redemption - his last moments are him realizing he was wrong, helping the hobbits, and accepting Aragorn . I actually think that's the only kind of redemption arc I would accept for Moash. He realizes what he could have been and sacrifices himself to hold off the enemy or something along those lines. If he is redeemed and survives... it would feel cheap. (unless it was done in a really brilliant way, which could totally happen)

[Gilphon]

2 hours ago, Shardsplinter said:

So, guys, I'm really not seeing the pattern as to when can you heal a long-term injury with Stormlight. I know it depends on how you view yourself spiritually but so far we have:

Lopen: a charachter confident of himself and that considers his lack of an arm a defining part of himself ( or at least his many jokes and coments make it seem like such) is able to grow hack the arm through streanght of will?. I just can't see him as not having accepted yet this part of him. Maybe his confidence from the first time he saw Kal absorb Stormlight on the fact that he once would too helped him change the way he saw himself.

Gaz: a charachter who could never accept that a missing eye was part of his identity was able to grow it back.

But then:

Rysn: a charachter that has always seen herself as intrepide, some kind of adventurer or explorer, with the dream of travelling the world as he master merchant sees a disabilitie that would make all of that at the very least unlikely as part of her identity? ( maybe she thinks subconsciously that she deserves it because of the decitions she took on the Reshi island)

What do u think? Is this all making more sense to everybody else?

PS Healing urself and being healed by another radiant with the surge of progression might also be slightly different (I don't think so but unless there's an in book or WoB specifically saying so it's still a fact to take into account)

 

I have suspected for awhile that the surge of Progression operates on a totally different principle from Stormlight healing. That progression is about accelerating natural growth and regeneration, whereas Stormlight restores a person to how they think they're supposed to be. Which would explain why time since the injury is a factor in progression, but it isn't with Stormlight.

[Master Silver]

14 minutes ago, Harfyn said:

I'd say Boromir's death was a redemption - his last moments are him realizing he was wrong, helping the hobbits, and accepting Aragorn . I actually think that's the only kind of redemption arc I would accept for Moash. He realizes what he could have been and sacrifices himself to hold off the enemy or something along those lines. If he is redeemed and survives... it would feel cheap. (unless it was done in a really brilliant way, which could totally happen)

Yeah, that is what I mean. Boromir's redemption came with him laying down his life to protect Merry and Pippin. I'd much rather Moash take Talin's place getting tortured to by the Radiants time. I think that would be acceptable. And probably Jezrian's spot, since he has his blade. I do find it curious that, even though everyone knows that it is Jezrian's honor blade, it is still identified by many as the blade of the Assassin in White. 

Edited August 25, 2020 by Master Silver

[Eluvianii he/him]

I didn't for a single second consider that Moash might be suggesting suicide to Kaladin and after reading this thread... I still don't.

I don't know about you guys but to me it felt like he was describing his own experience to Kal. Giving away his pain, stepping into the void. He says he should stop existing, yeah, because he would be devoid of emotions, just like Kal saw in Moash's eyes. It's like not being there at all. That way everything is easier. Overall this scene felt like standard Odium recruitment mixed with Moash actually caring about Kaladin, in his own way. He knows Kaladin well, and he wants him to stop hurting, and what better way than this magic method he himself discovered a year ago? If it wasn't for Renarin, I'd say there's no way back for him, he opened a small door to his redemption, but I think it's unlikely he'll get an entire arc for that. Right now, as a villain, he's amazing. I think he just turned into one of my favorite characters. He'll probably turn back the moment he dies though, or he'll die taking a lethal blow for Kal in a decisive battle.

And the atmosphere, Storms! the atmosphere. I know Brandon isn't one for deep prose but that scene was just so perfect. The house crumbling above. The faint glow of Stormlight disappearing completely as Kaladin falls apart. Moash talking calmly, slowly, emotionlessly. Syl desperately screaming in the background. It was amazing! On of the best scenes in the series so far imo.

Also, Pattern, how I missed you, buddy.

Shallan is in for a bumpy ride. We're seeing both Kaladin and Shallan will probably reach their lowest point this book, but Shallan has to cope with it while solving a world-changing mystery on her own. This is not gonna be nice.

About Gaz, yeah, I think he just saw himself as a man with two eyes the whole time and jumped at the chance to get the missing one back. Lopen probably is so, I don't know, carefree? easygoing? volatile? that he had accepted having only one arm, but could just as easily accept that he could get it back once he discovered Stormlight. That man is just too good at accepting constant changes, while others like Kaladin would entirely reconstruct their view of themselves after one of them. Hence, why he sees the slave brand as a part of him.

Ialai's secret compartment reminds me of puzzle-solving in horror games. Particularly Resident Evil. "What do you mean you have to know that guy's love for animals to open a door to the sewers?"

Edited August 25, 2020 by Eluvianii

[Rainier]

1 minute ago, Eluvianii said:

I didn't for a single second consider that Moash might be suggesting suicide to Kaladin and after reading this thread... I still don't.

I'm with you on this one. I don't read that as egging him on to suicide. I read it as encouraging him to join with Odium.

 

2 minutes ago, Eluvianii said:

Also, Pattern, how I missed you, buddy.

Shallan is in for a bumpy ride. We're seeing both Kaladin and Shallan will probably reach their lowest point this book, but Shallan has to cope with it while solving a world-changing mystery on her own. This is not gonna be nice.

Shallan has to cope with her lowest point, and also somehow avoid doing to Pattern what Kaladin did to Syl. My favorite abstract mathematical concept is at high risk for as long as she keeps pretending she's three people.

 

3 minutes ago, Eluvianii said:

Ialai's secret compartment reminds me of puzzle-solving in horror games. Particularly Resident Evil. "What do you mean you have to know that guy's love for animals to open a door to the sewers?"

It seemed...too easy. "Pattern, find a pattern." "OK, found one." "Great! We're done here, mystery solved, good work everyone!"

[Lightspine]

For some reason, brain went directly to the spheres Lirin stole from Wistiow when I read the description of Renarin's light as diamond-like.

Just spent a while flipping through Way of Kings to find this. Chapter 31 Kaladin flashback: (the townfolk confront Lirin asking for Wistiow's spheres)

Quote

Kal's father snorted. He ducked into the room. Kal cried out, moving back as Lirin threw open the cabinet where he kept the spheres. He grabbed the large glass goblet that he stored them in; it was covered with a black cloth.

"You want them?" Lirin called, walking to the doorway, passing Kal.

"Father?" Kal said, panicked.

"You want the light for yourself?" Lirin's voice grew louder. "Here!"

He pulled the cloth free. The goblet exploded with fiery radiance, the brightness nearly blinding. Kal raised his arm. His father was a shadowed silhouette that seemed to hold the sun itself in its fingers.

The large goblet shone with a calm light. Almost a cold light. Kal blinked away tears, his eyes adjusting. He could see the men outside clearly now. Where dangerous shadows had once loomed, cringing men now raised hands. They didn't look so intimidating; in fact, the cloths over their faces looked ridiculous.

Note: the goblet is full of diamond broams.

And from today's chapter:

Quote

Light exploded into the room.

Clean and white, like the light of the brightest diamond. The light of the sun. A brilliant, concentrated purity.

Moash growled, spinning around, shading his eyes against the source of the light—which came from the doorway. The figure behind it wasn’t visible as anything more than a shadow.

Moash shied away from the light—but a version of him, transparent and filmy, broke off and stepped toward the light instead. Like an afterimage. In it, Kaladin saw the same Moash—but somehow standing taller, wearing a brilliant blue uniform. This one raised a hand, confident, and although Kaladin couldn’t see them, he knew people gathered behind this Moash. Protected. Safe.

The image of Moash burst alight as a Shardspear formed in his hands.

“No!” the real Moash screamed. “No! Take it! Take my pain!” He stumbled away to the side of the room, furious, a Shardblade—the Blade of the Assassin in White—forming in his hands. He swung at the empty air. Finally he lowered his head—shadowing his face with his elbow—and shoved past the figure in the light and rushed back up the tunnel.

Kaladin knelt, bathed in that warm light. Yes, warmth. Kaladin felt warm. Surely… if there truly was a deity… it watched him from within that light.

While there's a few parallels in how the light is described in these scenes, what I find most interesting is the contrast between the cold light of Lirin and the warm light of Renarin. I think this is at least partially intentional, especially since they both take place in Hearthstone. Brandon is making a literary comparison between how Lirin and Renarin ward away Kaladin's fears. Lirin's light is the cold confidence of the surgeon. He sees the truth with brutal objectivity, and it is his voice that tells Kaladin "Move on to someone you can help, his father seemed to say. This one is dead." There's nothing wrong with this worldview, but it's not what Kaladin needs. He's been hearing these words his whole life, but he's never been able to accept things the way that Lirin does. And that is because of how cold Lirin is, bordering on dispassionate—something that the parshwoman running Hearthstone notes as well. Lirin's cool composure is a turn-off for Kaladin, who sees his philosophy as uncaring. Lirin's light shines on the people of Hearthstone and makes them look foolish. It scolds them. 

What Kaladin needs is warmth and comfort. Where Lirin would chastise Kaladin for failing to "let go" and move on from failure, Kaladin needs somebody to hug him and tell him that it's okay to mess up. Renarin's light shines on Moash and Kaladin and reveals their stronger selves. It uplifts them.

Edited August 25, 2020 by Lightspine

[Gilphon]

Random thoughts:

• And that gives us a fourth metal that imitates its Allomantic effect when used in Fabrials. Interestingly, this suggests that an Alerter isn't a true type of fabrial, but rather an add-on; you wrap a fabrial in bronze to give it an alerter effect in addition to whatever it was already doing. There's probably only so much room to apply metals to a single gem, though, so you might have to give up the 'volume controls' offered by Zinc and Brass or the 'off-switch' provided by Aluminium to make that work.
• I hope Navani's about to start talking about why the type of gem is important. Like, we've always known that the type of gem is important, but the only information we have about why is the soulcasting properties, which tell us nothing about what's going on in other Fabrials. Like why do spanreeds require rubies? Why do chasmfiends need emeralds?
• I had been assuming that the Warcamps were built by the Listeners, but Shallan was just thinking that they were far older than that. And certainly those little carvings of the Silver Kingdoms doesn't seem like the kind of architectural feature the Listeners would've constructed. It implies, to me, that the warcamps predate the shattering of the plains. Which... what? What is going on here?
• If Kaladin found that offer tempting, he's clearly in extremely bad shape.
• Renarin using what appears to be non-corrupted Truthwatcher Illumination! Man, his powers sure don't stop being confusing. 

[Lightspine]

1 minute ago, Gilphon said:

• I hope Navani's about to start talking about why the type of gem is important. Like, we've always known that the type of gem is important, but the only information we have about why is the soulcasting properties, which tell us nothing about what's going on in other Fabrials. Like why do spanreeds require rubies? Why do chasmfiends need emeralds?

Heliodor's Essence is sinew, and it soulcasts meat and flesh, so maybe that's why it's good for an alerter fabrial that seeks out people? I mean, people are mostly flesh.

For the others though, uhhh no idea.

[Raphaborn]

8 minutes ago, Lightspine said:

Heliodor's Essence is sinew, and it soulcasts meat and flesh, so maybe that's why it's good for an alerter fabrial that seeks out people? I mean, people are mostly flesh.

For the others though, uhhh no idea.

In the Fabrials section of the Ars Arcanum, Khriss mentions Heliodor being used for people, phenomena and objects. The reason for heliodor then must be different from the Essence. Flamesprens are captured by emerald instead of ruby, for example. Maybe even for both. I imagine that this spren x gemstone correlation uses criteria that we don't know anything about yet.

Edited August 25, 2020 by Raphaborn

[Michael Portz he/him]

16 minutes ago, Lightspine said:

Renarin's light shines on Moash and Kaladin and reveals their stronger selves. It uplifts them.

Upvoted, although I think Renarin's light did everything else but uplift Moash. Being confronted with his stronger self forces him to admit everything he has done wrong, which pains him to no end and which he feels he can not bear:

Quote

“No! Take it! Take my pain!”

Funny (and significant?) that right before this he tried to persuade Kaladin to give his (Kaladin's) pain to him (Moash):

Quote

“I can take away the pain, Kal. Isn’t that what you want? An end to your suffering?”

 

[+honorblades he/him]

Loved this chapter more than I thought I would actually, oh boy.
 

I definitely think there was some direct Odium influence when Moash is talking to Kaladin. The part that sticks out to me is how Kaladin is seemingly unable to hear Syl, it strikes me as similar to this part in OB: 

Quote

The Stormfather’s weeping faded as Odium somehow shoved the spren away, separating them

Could be an Unmade’s influence as well, as others have said. 

and then, of course, Renarin’s glorious entrance, what a perfect foil for Moash in that scene. I wonder if this is the particular moment that causes Dalinar to transfer Kaladin off of active duty?

 

I’m also thinking Renarin’s “perfect self” ability (sounds a heck of a lot like allomantic Malatium actually) will be able to help Kaladin progress in his Oaths, or perhaps help out with his depression so that he can progress through the Oaths on his own? 

[Lightspine]

9 minutes ago, Michael Portz said:

Upvoted, although I think Renarin's light did everything else but uplift Moash. Being confronted with his stronger self forces him to admit everything he has done wrong, which pains him to no end and which he feels he can not bear:

Fair point! Trying to uplift Moash certainly seems to destroy his security instead.

16 minutes ago, Raphaborn said:

In the Fabrials section of the Ars Arcanum, Khriss mentions Heliodor being used for people, phenomena and objects. The reason for heliodor then must be different from the Essence. Flamesprens are captured by emerald instead of ruby, for example. Maybe even for both. I imagine that this spren x gemstone correlation uses criteria that we don't know anything about yet.

Ah, my bad, I should have checked. Thanks for the correction! I too am hoping to learn more in this department.

[Gilphon]

So I think it's clear that something supernatural is going on with Moash's mental state. I had been assuming it was being directly done by Odium, but Dai-Gonarthis being responsible also makes sense. However, I feel pointing out that the first place we saw Moash talking like this was Kholinar. So if it's Dai-Gonarthis' doing, that would mean there were four Unmade doing stuff in Kholinar. That's a lot of resources for Odium to throw at a single city.

[Innovation]

4 minutes ago, Gilphon said:

So I think it's clear that something supernatural is going on with Moash's mental state. I had been assuming it was being directly done by Odium, but Dai-Gonarthis being responsible also makes sense. However, I feel pointing out that the first place we saw Moash talking like this was Kholinar. So if it's Dai-Gonarthis' doing, that would mean there were four Unmade doing stuff in Kholinar. That's a lot of resources for Odium to throw at a single city.

Maybe Dai-Gonarthis was just in the general area, like the Thrill is in Alethkar. Or maybe Dai-Gonatthis is just enhancing something that was already there. 

[+honorblades he/him]

16 minutes ago, Innovation said:

Maybe Dai-Gonarthis was just in the general area, like the Thrill is in Alethkar. Or maybe Dai-Gonatthis is just enhancing something that was already there. 

I’m very eager to see if Dai-Gonarthis is a simple force like the Thrill or if they are more aware.. I am leaning towards sentience though. 

[IcaroRibeiro he/him]

The scene of Renaring exploding the room with light and warming Kaladin was almost poetic

 

Very good job Sanderson

[Gilphon]

1 minute ago, _edgedancer said:

I’m very eager to see if Dai-Gonarthis is a simple force like the Thrill or if they are more aware.. I am leaning towards sentience though. 

So according to Hessi, Nergaoul, Moelach and Ashertmarn are the only mindless Unmade. Hessi did make it clear that she knew next to nothing about Dai-Gonarthis, so we can't be 100% confident that she's right, but she did suggest that it was responsible for the destruction of Aimia, which doesn't sound like Mindlessness to me.