So, which Order(s) don't have squires?

[Isilel]

Now that we have the new and more comprehensive Radiant Orders descriptions, which of them are likely not to have squires? Here is the new info for reference:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/424-the-ten-orders-of-knights-radiant/

From the books we know that Windrunners, Skybreakers, Lightweavers and Dustbringers (Dalinar's Purelake vision shows a Dustbringer with her squires) all have them and now, to my great surprise, the Bondsmiths were also confirmed. But personally, none of the new details about the Orders offer a clue about which of them lack squires. Well, the Willshapers, perhaps, with their focus on freedom? Though that would mean that Venli will have it even harder than I expected.

And speaking about the Willshapers focus, isn't it very odd that their spren, the Reachers have a very conventional, hierarchical ship's crew with a captain as seen in OB? This does clash a bit with the Order's image, IMHO.

[Honorless he/him]

Stonewards definitely have Squires, Edgedancers too probably.

Elsecallers and Willshapers is what I've been thinking. Maybe Truthwatchers as well.

Edited June 28, 2020 by R J

[+Oltux72 he/him]

2 hours ago, Isilel said:

And speaking about the Willshapers focus, isn't it very odd that their spren, the Reachers have a very conventional, hierarchical ship's crew with a captain as seen in OB? This does clash a bit with the Order's image, IMHO.

This has paralells. The Cryptics themselves are big into science and math, yet they seek the artistic types.

[ChiriChiri]

12 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

This has paralells. The Cryptics themselves are big into science and math, yet they seek the artistic types.

And much as Shallan spends all her time drawing, but a big chunk of it is focused on natural history. And all her annotations are pure scientific observation and hypothesis. It's almost like Lightweavers have multiple apparently conflicting aspects to their characters... ;-)

Do we definitely know for sure that there are some orders without squires?

Edited June 10, 2020 by ChiriChiri

[Notchbeard]

The direct quote from the book Words of Radiance is "Also, some orders were individualistic, while others - like the Windrunners - functioned in teams, with a specific hierarchy." There is never a quote that states Orders had NO squires but WoB have clarified that while all Orders are capable of having Squires for some it makes little sense to have them such as the Willshapers, Elsecallers, Bondsmiths and Truthwatchers. Brandon has even said that most squires serve for life as a squire, never becoming a full Radiant.

[Quantus he/him]

19 minutes ago, Notchbeard said:

The direct quote from the book Words of Radiance is "Also, some orders were individualistic, while others - like the Windrunners - functioned in teams, with a specific hierarchy." There is never a quote that states Orders had NO squires but WoB have clarified that while all Orders are capable of having Squires for some it makes little sense to have them such as the Willshapers, Elsecallers, Bondsmiths and Truthwatchers. Brandon has even said that most squires serve for life as a squire, never becoming a full Radiant.

WOB does say that some orders dont have squires, but I dont know of one saying they were all capable and just chose not to.  Can you point me to that WOB?

[Notchbeard]

14 minutes ago, Quantus said:

WOB does say that some orders dont have squires, but I dont know of one saying they were all capable and just chose not to.  Can you point me to that WOB?

My bad never read that direct quote that said some don't have them. The WoB about Hemalurgy being able to hack anyone into becoming a Squire to any order combined with the in book quote was what I mean by WoB clarification. However I was wrong :(.

[Karger he/him]

5 hours ago, Isilel said:

Dalinar's Purelake vision shows a Dustbringer with her squires)

I am pretty sure that that is an Edgedancer and none of the soldiers manifest radiant powers.

We know from the books that Windrunners, Skybreakers, and Lightweaver's have squires.  This new Bondsmith blurb indicates that they too gain squires.

I personally believe Jasnah though Shallan had manifested as her squire which would indicate that Elsecallers as well gain squires.  I also agree that Stonewards probably have squires as well(their focus on comradery and helping others).

This WoB uses the plural indicating at least two.

Quote

Argent

There is a person on the forums who noticed that Shallan has this awesome Memory thing going on, Jasnah seems to have a really powerful, kind of, geolocation thing going on, Kaladin is a really good fighter - are those just their traits, or is there something supernatural going on?

Brandon Sanderson

There is something supernatural going on. Each Order... Well, how about this. If you look at the scholar interpretations, there are some scholars who think that these things are not supernatural, in the past, and some who said they definitely are. But many, if you look, many Lightweavers had powerful mnemonic abilities.

Argent

So it's definitely tied to the Orders?

Brandon Sanderson

It's tied to the Orders. Now, I am not going to say that you've got them all 100% correct, but each Order, there are things that come with Order, things that do not add up from simple the "you get this power plus this power," there is something else going on. And I would say that for Windrunners, watch the number of squires and the power of the squires... is abnormal for the Windrunners.

Argent

And each Order's squires are somehow different from the other Orders'?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeeeaaaah... some Orders don't have them, [that] is the difference.

Argent

 But some have more?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah.

Words of Radiance Chicago signing (March 22, 2014)

I don't think it makes sense for the Willshapers to be squireless.  The work many of them do would require a lot of input from others and teamwork(like the DIY and design communities both often work in groups especially on their best work).  They are also right between Elsecaller and Stoneward on the chart and I believe both of them to have squires.  This leads me to believe that the Truthwatchers, Edgedancers, and Dustbringers are the most likely candidates.

[Quantus he/him]

2 hours ago, Karger said:

I am pretty sure that that is an Edgedancer and none of the soldiers manifest radiant powers.

We know from the books that Windrunners, Skybreakers, and Lightweaver's have squires.  This new Bondsmith blurb indicates that they too gain squires.

I personally believe Jasnah though Shallan had manifested as her squire which would indicate that Elsecallers as well gain squires.  I also agree that Stonewards probably have squires as well(their focus on comradery and helping others).

This WoB uses the plural indicating at least two.

I don't think it makes sense for the Willshapers to be squireless.  The work many of them do would require a lot of input from others and teamwork(like the DIY and design communities both often work in groups especially on their best work).  They are also right between Elsecaller and Stoneward on the chart and I believe both of them to have squires.  This leads me to believe that the Truthwatchers, Edgedancers, and Dustbringers are the most likely candidates.

I agree, but I think Dustbringers could go either way.  They are very self/internal focused which would lend itself to them being solitary and squireless.  On the other hand they sure sound like kung-fu monks seeking enlightenment, which means we could get a dustbringer guru on a mountain-top teaching a field of disciples.  This guru must have the magnificent eyebrows of a Thaylen (ideally all-white and with a matching beard) like the Kung Fu masters of old. 

Edited June 10, 2020 by Quantus
grammar...

[Karger he/him]

1 hour ago, Quantus said:

I agree, but I think Dustbringers could go either way.  They are very self/internal focused which would lend itself to them being solitary and squireless.  On the other hand they sure sound like kung-fu monks seeking enlightenment, which means we could get a dustbringer guru on a mountain-top teaching a field of disciples.  This guru must have the magnificent eyebrows of a Thaylen (ideally all-white and with a matching beard) like the King Fu masters of old. 

A disciple does not have to be a squire.  They could be lower level Dustbringers or even just trainees.  I do agree that our Thaylen guru must happen.

[Isilel]

5 hours ago, Karger said:

I am pretty sure that that is an Edgedancer and none of the soldiers manifest radiant powers.

 

Her armor was glowing red and she was moving frictionlessly through the water - definitely a Dustbringer. And a few soldiers with her were glowing with stormlight, therefore squires. 

I agree that craftsmen, builders, etc. are very reliant on cooperation and apprenticeships, so from this PoV the Willshapers not having squires would be odd. At the same time, I don't see how squires would fit with the freedom focus of the Order as explained in this new description, or, for that matter, why this philosophy would be particularly attractive to craftsmen specifically... And on the gripping hand their spren the Reachers live in conventional top-down hierachies on their ships, as seen in OB, which also doesn't fit. So, color me confused.

OTOH, I also don't see for which of the other Orders it would make sense to not have squires. In scholarship mentor - student relationships are very important too, so Truthwatchers should have squires, IMHO. Maybe the Elsecallers, with their focus on individual excellence? Yes, Jasnah did think that Shallan was becoming her squire at first, but did she have accurate sources about Radiant squires at her disposal? She may not have known that she couldn't have them.

@Oltux72: 

Mathematics and art aren't antithetical - on the contrary, iRL visual arts and music talents are adjacent to and overlapping with mathematical ones. Admittedly, less so in the modern arts than in the past, but Roshar is still at the stage where they are fairly tightly interwoven.

 

[Karger he/him]

Just now, Isilel said:

Her armor was glowing red and she was moving frictionlessly through the water - definitely a Dustbringer. And a few soldiers with her were glowing with stormlight, therefore squires. 

I have my copy open.  OK so you are right it is a Dustbringer...  Ohhh your right these soldiers glow as well.  Good catch.

5 minutes ago, Isilel said:

And on the gripping hand

Oh you read Mote as well?

6 minutes ago, Isilel said:

I don't see how squires would fit with the freedom focus of the Order as explained in this new description, or, for that matter, why this philosophy would be particularly attractive to craftsmen specifically...

They are free thinkers.  They like to find better ways of doing things.  I think silicon valley entrepreneurs. 

I think I am going with Truthwatchers and Edgedancers as the two without squires.  As we see from Lift Edgedancers are more "slippery" they move around, they help people, they enjoy helping people, but they tend to be fairly self reliant.  Truthwatchers seem more like theorists to me.  You get your basics in seminar or lecture classes and then you read for more advanced stuff and you start writing to test your own theories.  You might collaborate or not with others of your profession and both are fine.

[The Ryshadium]

Looking at the excel sheet that was just posted that reveals the "correct" values for the quiz, Elsecallers have a value of 100 for the lone wolf question. Truthwatchers are second highest with 89. That may be something to consider as I'm sure Brandon's team knows the orders well. They both seem to operate independently so far. Next highest his Dustbringers with 61, but we have seen squires already as was mentioned above. Truthwatchers and Elsecallers are my guess. 

Edit: 

Windrunners and Skybreakers have values of 10 and 0 respectively making them the most wolf pack leaning of the orders. We know that both of those orders have more squires than the others. 

Edited June 10, 2020 by The Ryshadium

[Karger he/him]

3 hours ago, The Ryshadium said:

Truthwatchers and Elsecallers are my guess. 

Sound reasoning.  We do not actually know that the two orders without any will be at all related.

[Cammac]

If you take Shallan only becoming Jasnahs ward through sheer perseverance, that could give a clue. Also I can see elscallers having scribes and scholars working with them rather than having squires.

Similar could be said for truthwathers, I think both of these orders wouldn't really need the people they work with to have any powers to get things done. Maybe even working on the same projects together ect.

Edited June 11, 2020 by Cammac
Typo

[SirNoSell]

On 6/10/2020 at 10:17 PM, Karger said:

I think I am going with Truthwatchers and Edgedancers as the two without squires

I think an argument can be made Edgedancers would have squires. 

I remember off the top of my head where Wyndle was saying something about Cultivation wanting to mould Lift into an ideal Edgedancer or something of the sort.

I just find it difficult to believe that an order that bond with 'cultivationspren' and are seen as 'regal' wouldn't have a close following enough to have squires. Cultivating others to elevate themselves to be their highest potential and care of others.

[Karger he/him]

Just now, BrightLordSwageas said:

I think an argument can be made Edgedancers would have squires. 

An argument could be made for all orders that we don't know about.  I just decided what I thought were the most likely but my opinion is based on a rather loose collection of information and beliefs that are not entirely verifiable.

2 minutes ago, BrightLordSwageas said:

I remember off the top of my head where Wyndle was saying something about Cultivation wanting to mould Lift into an ideal Edgedancer or something of the sort.

They chose her in part because "she is a child and we can mold her."

2 minutes ago, BrightLordSwageas said:

I just find it difficult to believe that an order that bond with 'cultivationspren' and are seen as 'regal' wouldn't have a close following enough to have squires. Cultivating others to elevate themselves to be their highest potential and care of others.

To me at least that seems too much like playing favorites.  Edgedancers should like all sorts of people and enjoy helping them at a personal level.  Not a lot of teamwork seems involved.