I registered to ask you about a possible inconsistency regarding Gavilar

[Georion]

Hello everyone!

I have a very nit-picky observation/ question, so I thought about posting it on reddit, but at the same time, I thought maybe it's the right reason to sign up for this forum.

Re-reading the Way of Kings I found something that bothered me even on my previous read, and that is the inconsistency surrounding Gavilar’s reputation as a swordsman and duelist, and his later loss of appetite for these activities.

In the Way of Kings, but I’m reasonably sure that in the next two books as well, there are several mentions about Gavilar being a master swordsman, someone who like and engaged in dueling. On the other hand, we are told about 0 such duels, yet we are told on numerous occasions that Dalinar was the fighter and the duelist, while Gavilar was the leader. Presumably in their effort to conquer Kholinar and becoming Highprince, Gavilar did his fair share of fighting, we know almost nothing about these years, but we do see quite a few glimpses of the unification wars, yet at that point Gavilar is already transitioning more and more towards being only a political leader, and maybe a war-strategist, but certainly not a duelist. Few quotes:

“It was said few men could rival Gavilar Kholin’s swordsmanship” – Szeth – Way of Kings- Prologue

Not an exact quote “You didn’t duel a Highprince. It just wasn’t something that’s done” – Adolin – Way of Kings  (There are also references in the series, that it wouldn’t be proper for a king or leader to duel someone below his station)

Not an exact quote: “He started to refuse duels, you know… near the end” Elhokar to Dalinar – Way of Kings. (Sadeas has a similar comment also in Way of Kings.

“Gavilar had been the leader, the momentum and the essence of their conquest, but Dalinar had been the warrior. Their opponents had surrendered to Gavilar’s rule, but the Blackthorn, he was the man who had scattered them, the one who had dueled their leaders and slain their best shardbearers” – Dalinar – Way of Kings” – Assault of the Tower plateau

In the Dalinar flashbacks in Oathbringer, I clearly remember that when Tanalan (leader of the Rift) was challenged to a duel, it was obvious Dalinar would be the one taking him on, and then Tanalan asked what if he kills Dalinar? And the answer was “then Sadeas gets a crack at you”. So the option of Gavilar dueling an enemy leader, (Highprince and/or shardbearer) isn’t even entertained, and this was way back in the year 1141, towards the end of the unification wars, so towards the end of the period where we could reasonably expect Gavilar to engage in a duel. Elhokar wasn’t even born yet (only in 1147), not sure if Gavilar was already king, or just Hihgprince and the de facto leader of the Alethi, being the leader of the coalition poised to unite Alethkar.  

The second Rift uprising was in 1163, Gavilar stayed at home and sent Dalinar once again to deal with it. The timeline of the early wars is fuzzy, but we have at least the exact time for the Rift uprisings.  

Gavilar may have been a duelist in the early year, before Elhokar was born. But in the time Elhokar could remember, he was already king, and hasn’t been doing any in-person fighting on the battlefield in years. So, if he’s not challenging enemy shardbearers, who could he have dueled?  It’s fairly clearly stated that challenging a Highprince was a very rare occurrence, challenging a King should be even more so by that logic. Maybe his closest allies could challenge him for friendly duels, but Dalinar and Sadeas certainly make no such remark; some of the other Highprinces maybe? Wouldn’t that be strange, a former enemy, whom he defeated in the unification wars, challenging him for a “friendly duel”. He could have dueled ardents for sport, I guess, but he would be the one challenging in those situations.

All in all, I know this is a next level nitpick, but I think Gavilar couldn’t have possibly had many duels in the lifetime of his son, so it could be noticeable for Elhokar that his father lost his appetite for sword-fighting "near the end".

What do you think? Am I missing something?

Edited May 25, 2020 by Georion

[AonEne he/him]

Welcome to the 17th Shard! This is definitely the place for nitpicky questions - we’re brimming with the pedants of the fandom (I mean that in the best way). 

I’m not the best for timeline questions, but it seems pretty likely to me that, as you suggested, he fought friends or ardents. He did participate in the war, as well - Dalinar was Dalinar, of course, but Gavilar is pretty clearly shown to be a fighter himself in those battles. 

[Honorless he/him]

Gavilar was a good fighter, he lost his appetite because he found something more important

Have you read Oathbringer?

[Georion]

14 minutes ago, R J said:

Gavilar was a good fighter, he lost his appetite because he found something more important

Have you read Oathbringer?

I have, though I dindt reach there with my re-read. I'm not saying Gavilar wasn't a good fighter, I'm saying that there is a slight contradiction / timeline inconsistency. Elhokar was born after the unification wars, so after Gavilar did most of his in-person fighting. During his son's lifetime there were several smaller conflicts, the largest being the 2nd Rift uprising. Gavilar didnt even participate in that, he remained home with his family (Elhokar was a small child at this point).

As i said he might have challenged his friends or ardents for duels (though we arent told specifically) but who could have challenged him? Almost nobody, certainly his enemies didnt.

Yet Elhokar seems to remember his father "refusing duels near the end". So that implies he had seen his father being challenged for duels, and accepting them earlier on, but almost nobody could challenge king Gavilar, so there's my nitpick. 

Edited May 25, 2020 by Georion

[AonEne he/him]

1 minute ago, Georion said:

Yet Elhokar seems to remember his father "refusing duels near the end". So that implies he had seen his father being challenged for duels, and accepting them earlier on, but almost nobody could challenge king Gavilar, so there's my nitpick. 

There are other options. ‘Refusing’ could mean that he simply shunned them by no longer challenging others. Or that he didn’t want to do practice duels with Dalinar, who I’m sure was the type to ask. 

[Paleo he/him]

Welcome to the forums, @Georion! Don't be surprised that your topic was moved, but it's a little more appropriate in the Stormlight Archive subforum for spoiler reasons

[Honorless he/him]

Maybe Gavilar followed the same Calling as Adolin as a Duelist

[GoWibble he/him]

So that is why he died... lack of practice... not that szeth was using magic or anything

[+Harrycrapper]

I think there's a distinction to make here. There's a difference between being a professional duelist and a good fighter. As we see in Adolin's POVs, dueling isn't always about fighting for honor or high stakes like Plate and Blade. It's a calling and like a sport with rules and specific strategies. Gavilar might have been a professional duelist like Adolin and maintained a high rank in the listings, but let his place lapse in his later years. Now the duels that Dalinar fought that your referred to weren't all formal duels, they were 1v1 fights on the battlefield. There were no rules except it seems most men seem to leave the people with Plate/Blade to fight alone. Those are the type of fights to leave to Dalinar because he was much better at fighting dirty and that way they weren't risking Gavilar. Just because Dalinar fought the important fights in the war doesn't mean Gavilar couldn't have been dueling for sport like Adolin does. 

 

[Aminar]

Elhokar was in his early-mid twenties when his father died. "The End" seems to have started for Gavilar before the Great Shell hunts. The first suggestion is the flashback where Adolin was born. Not only does Gavilar talk about Uniting Alethkar a whole lot, but he says, "Words are Important." and talks about missing when people were Radiant. That was ~23 years before Way of Kings, 17 years before his death. I suspect he'd already started having the visions by then, but wasn't truly the kind of man to become a Radiant. Strength before Weakness is not the Alethi way. Jasnah had just struggled with her "Lunacy" which may have been the first steps towards her Radiance. Elhokar was 6 or 7 at this point. Old enough to remember his father dueling, but also seeing his father change. Even the flashback before that has Gavilar talking about the need for unity when he tells Dalinar about the Rift rebelling. Dalinar didn't become a Radiant until he'd moved on from Uniting Alethkar and towards preparing for a desolation, something Gavilar never really did. His approach was to create more conflict not less.

Edited May 25, 2020 by Aminar

[Mist she/her]

Welcome to the Shard!

[+Q10fanatic]

We have seen that reputations are fairly static things in this period of Rosharan history. Dalinar spends all of Oathbringer trying to overcome his reputation for being a savage fighter, even though it has been more than a decade since his personality shifted to Bondsmith-appropriate piety. Perhaps Gavilar benefitted from his old reputation as the conquering fighter?

Also, he came this close to defeating Szeth 1v1. That speaks to his skill level as well. Maybe he was deserving of his reputation?

Another possibility is that the shardplate allowed him to maintain his fighting prowess far longer than his body would otherwise be able to unaided. With shardplate lending strength and speed, Gavilar's instincts came through still. Without shardplate, maybe we would have seen only a man past his prime.

[Karger he/him]

On 5/25/2020 at 5:11 AM, Georion said:

“You didn’t duel a Highprince. It just wasn’t something that’s done” – Adolin – Way of Kings  (There are also references in the series, that it wouldn’t be proper for a king or leader to duel someone below his station)

Unless you want to make a big deal about it.  Also Adolin is from a different generation where things are done differently.

On 5/25/2020 at 5:11 AM, Georion said:

“It was said few men could rival Gavilar Kholin’s swordsmanship” – Szeth – Way of Kings- Prologue

Alethi men would not respect a leader unskilled in personal combat.  He probably carefully maintained and curated that reputation.  Gavilar was actually a good duelist but I am guessing he chose his duels strategically and only did so as often as necessary.

On 5/25/2020 at 5:11 AM, Georion said:

He started to refuse duels, you know… near the end” Elhokar to Dalinar – Way of Kings. (Sadeas has a similar comment also in Way of Kings.

Their are different types of duels that happen for different reasons.  Elhokar may have been referring more to the fact that he stopped confronting people physically.

On 5/25/2020 at 5:11 AM, Georion said:

then Sadeas gets a crack at you”. So the option of Gavilar dueling an enemy leader, (Highprince and/or shardbearer) isn’t even entertained, and this was way back in the year 1141, towards the end of the unification wars, so towards the end of the period where we could reasonably expect Gavilar to engage in a duel. Elhokar wasn’t even born yet (only in 1147), not sure if Gavilar was already king, or just Hihgprince and the de facto leader of the Alethi, being the leader of the coalition poised to unite Alethkar.  

Gavilar had declared himself king.  However he only had political control over around half of the Alethi princedoms.  Considering that his death would undo all of his friends' work then him attacking an equally dangerous opponent before his equally skilled friends at least soften him up a bit is impractical.

On 5/25/2020 at 5:11 AM, Georion said:

All in all, I know this is a next level nitpick, but I think Gavilar couldn’t have possibly had many duels in the lifetime of his son, so it could be noticeable for Elhokar that his father lost his appetite for sword-fighting "near the end".

I agree that this particular inconsistency is notable and fairly real however I think it also a reasonable inconsistency that would develop.  People saw Gavilar differently and this colored their perception of his actions.  I do think he engaged in friendly duels or at least weapons demonstrations(with ardents or personal friends) that he stopped bothering with as much toward the end of his life because he was busy with the sons of honor.  What Elhokar might mean was something along the lines of "he refused to take the time to duel."

Also Welcome to the shard.

Edited May 26, 2020 by Karger

[Fiedal]

Wasn't implied in oathbringer, that Dalinar wasn't the best duelist He mentions that he never was able to best one of his swordmaster ardents. Alot of what we see of how Dalinar fights seems quite dirty and brutal: he might have brushed up against dueling rules and/or conventions  in a formal setting. Adolin  talks about the differences between dueling and fighting on the battlefield in words of radiance.

I took from this that Gavilar and Sadeas were the duelists of the trio, and Dalinar's only interest in dueling was an outlet to experience the thrill as he got older.

I think its also said in words of radiance that Sadeas defeated a high prince in a duel and requested a boon from Gavilar, I find it interesting that it was not Dalinar in this account.

Edited May 29, 2020 by Fiedal

[Karger he/him]

16 minutes ago, Fiedal said:

Wasn't implied in oathbringer, that Dalinar wasn't the best duelist

Welcome!  Dalinar claims to have not been much of a duelist.  He also thinks that dueling in general is too sanitized so he does not care for it much.  However one of the ways Gavilar got rid of people he did not like was having them challenge Dalinar so he was at least effective if not up to Adolin's standards.

18 minutes ago, Fiedal said:

I think its also said in words of radiance that Sadeas defeated a high prince in a duel and requested a boon from Gavilar, I find it interesting that it was not Dalinar in this account.

I do as well although there may have been political reasons why Sadeas was chosen or perhaps Dalinar was not present.  Additionally Dalinar generally drank heavily at feasts so having him challenge another man to a duel might not have been a good idea.