Disintegrating Soulcasters

[Karnage]

I was reading Kaza's interlude (Aimia), there I notice that she says that her Soulcaster is different because it can only make one essence, smoke. I was thinking that since there is no balance between three essences that, that is the reason why Kaza is dissolving. I was thinking that that is the reason why people aren't suspicious of Jasnah having a soulcaster (not sure if we know the timeline of when she started "using a soulcaster" though).

What are y'all thoughts?

[Quantus he/him]

Nah, anyone overusing a soulcaster risks that condition, called Savantism, even if it's one with multiple Essences; it's matter of the constant use of Investiture warping their spiritweb  Soulcaster fabrials that can use multiple Essences are far less common, but not unknown by any means.  The biggest reason that most people are suspicious of Jasnah is the fact that she's a professed non-believer and Soulcasters are otherwise only ever used by Ardents.  Or they were like Mr T, and were In The Know enough to suspect she was actually Radiant and not just using a fabrial.  

[Karger he/him]

Savantism is kind of like the spiritual form of addiction.  If you use something too much your body and soul become dependent on it.  It is possible with all forms of magic.

[+Q10fanatic]

I believe the soulcasters in Kholinar during the siege (that Azhure hid away) are trying to resist the effects of savantism by taking turns using the soulcaster. Even then, they are starting to show the effects.

[Mat he/him]

1 hour ago, Karger said:

Savantism is kind of like the spiritual form of addiction.  If you use something too much your body and soul become dependent on it.  It is possible with all forms of magic.

Like with Spook in the later Era 1 Mistborn books

[Karger he/him]

Just now, Matrim's_Dice said:

Like with Spook in the later Era 1 Mistborn books

Among others but he is the most obvious example.

Edited May 14, 2020 by Karger

[Hen she/her]

I'm pretty sure she's dissolving because all she makes is smoke, If a soul caster were to make only stone, they would slowly turn into stone. Regardless, soul casting changes the body. Soul casting Radients like Shallan and Jasnah don't have these effects because of their Nahel bonds. I think that when Normal ardents soul cast, they take power from the infused gemstones yes, but it needs something else too, and because they lack the Nahel bond, the soul casting is forced to draw from the Ardents body, effectively destroying it. Elsecallers and Lightweavers of course have the Bond, and so their bodies are unaffected because the energy needed to soul cast can be given through their Bonds. (This is a theory of mine I don't know if it holds up against cosmere cannon but yea)

[oldwomanjosiah]

In Kaza’s interlude she describes the process of soul casting as “picking at [the stone’s] memories,” and notes: “She nearly gave in herself. How wonderful would it be to no longer fear? To soar into infinity on the air?” (Oathbringer Hardcover Page 561). To me this indicates that for some reason the fabrial machine, while directed by her mind, is also acting upon her spirit. Her will for the stone to change in the passage is also noted to be reinforced by another: “commanding and powerful, attracted by her request for aid.” Shallan does not note any reinforcing will like this either of the times she soulcasts, which makes me think that it is this introduction of a third party, controlled in a relatively crude manner, that makes the use of a soulcaster fabrial machine have this effect on a person.

[Naurock]

What @Quantus said. We saw other Soulcasters in WoR.

Quote

That included the five Soulcasters. Each stood with right hand to breast, displaying a sparkling fabrial across the back of the palm. One of the ardents glanced at Adolin. Stormfather—that gaze wasn’t completely human, not any longer. Prolonged use of the Soulcaster had transformed the eyes so that they sparkled like gemstones themselves. The woman’s skin had hardened to something like stone, smooth, with fine cracks. It was as if the person were a living statue.

 

[Nellac]

So, this brings up an interesting question. What if an ardent had a soulmates with two opposite attributes? Say like fire and water base liquids or air and stone. Would these cancel each other out or would the ardent become half of both? Or would they be something in the middle like steam for fire/water and a mini sandstorm for air/stone?

[PiedPiper she/her]

2 hours ago, Nellac said:

So, this brings up an interesting question. What if an ardent had a soulmates with two opposite attributes? Say like fire and water base liquids or air and stone. Would these cancel each other out or would the ardent become half of both? Or would they be something in the middle like steam for fire/water and a mini sandstorm for air/stone?

I think maybe the ardent would become half of both -- although it could be that one is used more than the other, so that one is the dominant essence and the ardent becomes mostly or all of that one and less of the other -- or maybe there's a third essence that the Soulcaster can do and it overpowers the first two.

That makes me wonder something else, though: if a Soulcaster's specialty is an Essence such as blood, which doesn't really hold form, how does it manifest when that person begins to transform into their Essence?

Edited May 17, 2020 by PiedPeterPiper

[Karger he/him]

2 hours ago, Nellac said:

So, this brings up an interesting question. What if an ardent had a soulmates with two opposite attributes? Say like fire and water base liquids or air and stone. Would these cancel each other out or would the ardent become half of both? Or would they be something in the middle like steam for fire/water and a mini sandstorm for air/stone?

We don't know.  It is possible that one could mitigate the effects of the other but I do not think you could avoid the damage entirely. 

[Hen she/her]

On 5/17/2020 at 11:47 AM, PiedPeterPiper said:

That makes me wonder something else, though: if a Soulcaster's specialty is an Essence such as blood, which doesn't really hold form, how does it manifest when that person begins to transform into their Essence?

Well, smoke doesn't hold a form either, but Kaza still turns into smoke, the smoke just floats away. I think its similar with the other gas/liquid essences, so if part of a blood soulcasters cheek turned into blood, it would just drip down their jaw or go into their mouth or something. The edges of the hole, with for Kaza were slightly translucent, would be blood red, or simply without skin, so if it were on their fingertips, you could see the bone and muscle of the edges of their fingers. 

[PiedPiper she/her]

6 hours ago, Hentient said:

Well, smoke doesn't hold a form either, but Kaza still turns into smoke, the smoke just floats away. I think its similar with the other gas/liquid essences, so if part of a blood soulcasters cheek turned into blood, it would just drip down their jaw or go into their mouth or something. The edges of the hole, with for Kaza were slightly translucent, would be blood red, or simply without skin, so if it were on their fingertips, you could see the bone and muscle of the edges of their fingers. 

The crucial difference between blood and smoke, though, is that blood obeys gravity (not that some doesn't technically also obey the rules, but you know what I mean). Would the person then just be constantly dripping blood wherever they went, then? Sounds like it would be fun to go clothes shopping.

[Hen she/her]

36 minutes ago, PiedPeterPiper said:

The crucial difference between blood and smoke, though, is that blood obeys gravity (not that some doesn't technically also obey the rules, but you know what I mean). Would the person then just be constantly dripping blood wherever they went, then? Sounds like it would be fun to go clothes shopping.

Yea. I Would guess that they would drip blood only after they have recently soulcast something into blood, so it doesn't just happen randomly. I also think that's why we don't really see blood soulcasters. They don't really seem to have a big purpose (I guess waters important, but we haven't really seen a shortage of water) and so are relatively rare, or they just stay away from people as much as they can. 

[Aminar]

2 hours ago, PiedPeterPiper said:

The crucial difference between blood and smoke, though, is that blood obeys gravity (not that some doesn't technically also obey the rules, but you know what I mean). Would the person then just be constantly dripping blood wherever they went, then? Sounds like it would be fun to go clothes shopping.

I would assume it would clot rather quickly. They'd just have constantly scabbed over holes that would occasionally open up and "bleed". 

[oldwomanjosiah]

It’s also interesting to note that soulcasters seem to have been made primarily in akinah at some point, as opposed to as a side product fo the abandonment of the nahel bond like the swords and armor, and it is thus rather unlikely that a soulcaster with as little use as a blood soulcaster would be made often.

[PiedPiper she/her]

16 hours ago, Hentient said:

Yea. I Would guess that they would drip blood only after they have recently soulcast something into blood, so it doesn't just happen randomly. I also think that's why we don't really see blood soulcasters. They don't really seem to have a big purpose (I guess waters important, but we haven't really seen a shortage of water) and so are relatively rare, or they just stay away from people as much as they can. 

 

14 hours ago, Aminar said:

I would assume it would clot rather quickly. They'd just have constantly scabbed over holes that would occasionally open up and "bleed". 

I bet it's some combination of the two -- and also, if you do need water, you can soulcast away from other people, as opposed to something like stone where you need a wall in a certain place. Thanks, guys!

[Hen she/her]

15 hours ago, Aminar said:

I would assume it would clot rather quickly. They'd just have constantly scabbed over holes that would occasionally open up and "bleed". 

I didn't think about clotting. I would hope that because of the investiture that wouldn't happen. Thats just wishful thinking though because a blood soul caster who doesn't have scabs would look so much cooler. 

[Aminar]

10 minutes ago, Hentient said:

I didn't think about clotting. I would hope that because of the investiture that wouldn't happen. Thats just wishful thinking though because a blood soul caster who doesn't have scabs would look so much cooler. 

I don't think they're constantly invested(as that would leave them resistant to lashings and shardblades) but the way I imagine it using a Soulcaster would likely reopen the bleeding. 

But I do wonder how the whole survival with holes in the body works. I would assume they've got an ongoing connection with the Cognitive Realm given the way its all described, but that doesn't cover everything. They do still have to eat and breathe from what we've seen and the damage does seem to be in superfluous areas. 

[Hen she/her]

Pretty sure Kaza had gotten to a point where she didn't need to eat as much? 

In her interlude She says 

Quote

"That nausea mixed with a faint sense of hunger. Food was something she often forgot about these days, as her body needed less of it now." Oathbringer pg. 560, Hardcover

So she still needs food, just less than normal. But yea It seems like, at least for her, the smoke started in less vital areas. Like her fingertips. Though the whole in her cheek kinda blows that theory.

Their survival might be linked with their connection with the cognitive realm, as she's accepted that she doesn't need to eat, it makes it more real in the Physical realm? Things like that. Similar to how, when someone accepts an injury is part of them, It's harder to heal.

[Aminar]

53 minutes ago, Hentient said:

Pretty sure Kaza had gotten to a point where she didn't need to eat as much? 

In her interlude She says 

So she still needs food, just less than normal. But yea It seems like, at least for her, the smoke started in less vital areas. Like her fingertips. Though the whole in her cheek kinda blows that theory.

Their survival might be linked with their connection with the cognitive realm, as she's accepted that she doesn't need to eat, it makes it more real in the Physical realm? Things like that. Similar to how, when someone accepts an injury is part of them, It's harder to heal.

Even the cheek isn't as vital as say, into her lung. It's a really survivable loss, just annoying and discomforting. 

[PiedPiper she/her]

1 hour ago, Hentient said:

So she still needs food, just less than normal. But yea It seems like, at least for her, the smoke started in less vital areas. Like her fingertips. Though the whole in her cheek kinda blows that theory.

Their survival might be linked with their connection with the cognitive realm, as she's accepted that she doesn't need to eat, it makes it more real in the Physical realm? Things like that. Similar to how, when someone accepts an injury is part of them, It's harder to heal.

It makes me wonder if there are laws in certain countries about how long Soulcasters live -- at some point, it's kinder to kill them, isn't it? It'd be a really interesting reflection of Rosharan cultures, seeing the different laws in place (if any) about that.

[Aminar]

33 minutes ago, PiedPeterPiper said:

It makes me wonder if there are laws in certain countries about how long Soulcasters live -- at some point, it's kinder to kill them, isn't it? It'd be a really interesting reflection of Rosharan cultures, seeing the different laws in place (if any) about that.

I think generally speaking they naturally just give in when it's time, given what we've seen. Especially given how vital a resource the Soulcasters are, I imagine they're otherwise given a pretty easy life with a lot of bonuses. 

[Gilphon]

Actually, this touches on a question I've always had about Kaza's situation; was she actually disintegrating, or she just turning into smoke? Which is to say, was she constantly losing mass, or was the smoke that used to be part of her fingers continuing to hang around near her hand?