Forging Radiant Plate (Theory)

[Nellac]

Spoiler Warning: I use information from all three stormlight books along with a tiny bit from the mistborn series

 

 

 

So, I put part of this theory on another thread, but since then I've thought more about it and refined it a bit. In short, Radiants form a "proto-plate" by a combination of their surgebinding and their secondary spren. Bondsmiths then take this and forge it into true Shardplate.

 

So to get deeper into my theory, it was sparked by a quote from one of Dalinar's visons.

Oathbringer page 352

"I think something might be wrong with my armor!" Dalinar shouted to him "I can't make my helm retract!"

In response, the other Radiant made his vanish. Dalinar caught sight of a puff of Light or mist. Beneath the helm, the man had dark skin and curly black hair. His eyes glowed blue "Retract your helm?" he shouted "You haven't summoned your armor yet; you had to dismiss it so I could Lash you"

Oh, Dalinar thought. "I mean earlier. It wouldn't vanish when I wanted it to"

"Talk to Harkaylain then, or to your spren" The Windrunner frowned. "Will this be a problem for our mission?"

 

Now the thing that is interesting about this quote is that Dalinar is referred to go to someone else for help with his plate. Many people suggest that plate is a bond with the lesser spren of a given order. For example, windspren for windrunners, gloryspren for Bondsmiths, etc. As interesting a theory as this is, and I don't think it's too far off the mark, it doesn't make sense given the above quote. If the bond a radiant had to their plate was just between them and the spren why would they need someone else's help to fix it? I believe that the man mentioned in the quote, Harkaylain, was a Bondsmith.

To take a step back, I don't think Bondsmiths just magically whip plate out of the air. If they could do that, why not give regular people plate as well? I think that before a Radiant can get true Shardplate, they must make what I will dub "proto-plate." This proto-plate would be armor that was made out of a combination of that radiant's particular secondary spren and surges. We have seen something similar to this already on Shallan. Once a radiant had enough control over their proto-plate they could take it to a Bondsmith and create their full plate.

So, here's where I think we start to see the literal result of the name Bondsmith. I think these Radiants had the ability to create bonds between people and spren. Now, we've seen Dalinar reach all the way between realms and bring them together, but we also know this is a new ability. I believe that the Bondsmiths of the past could do something similar, but on a much smaller scale. Bondsmiths could take the essence of the lesser spren, which exists mostly in the cognitive realm, and combine it with the Radiant's surges, which comes from their use of investiture, which is from the spiritual realm, and combines them and brings them into the physical realm to create plate. 

Now, a couple of other things that could help this theory make more sense. One of the major differences between modern plate and shards is the ability to dismiss them. Modern blades can be dismissed just like those the radiants had, but plate can't. I think this is because the plate is more tightly linked to their spiritual signature. As we know, shardblades are dead radiant spren. Now, while these spren have been bonded in the past, they are distinct beings, likely with their own spiritual signature. This means it's not that far off for them to be able to recreate a smaller version of that bond with people, even when their dead. If I'm correct the major difference with Radiant plate is that it contains some of the radiant's investiture. Now we have seen from feruchemy that when investiture comes from a certain person it is permanently linked to them and cannot be used by others. This could explain how no one has found a way to dismiss modern shardplate. They can use the physical item, much like you could wear a feruchemist's bracelet, but they can't actually utilize the underlying abilities.

Another idea that I think makes this more likely is the fact that Modern shardplate is seen to be really similar across the board. We even see Dalinar use the gauntlet from Adolin's suit in TWoK. Now, if each order made their plate a different way, or just by their surges and lesser spren, it would seem plate should look very different depending on the order it came from. I propose that the reason they look the same is because they are made of the same material. When you really get down to it spren are just collections of Honor and Cultivations power given sapience. In this way all lesser spren are the same substance, just in different shapes. I would relate this to metal ingots used in forging. Each type of spren is a type of ingot. They are all made of the same material, say iron, but some are circular, others are squares etc. When the Bondsmith forges them together with the radiant's power the shape they were in before doesn't matter, only the material. Since all spren are effectively the same material, it makes sense that all plate would look extremely similar, regardless of the order it came from.

 

I know this is a lot of theorizing, but given the lack of actual information we have on these topics i figured I'd at least give it a shot. I'll be the first to admit I'm no master realmatic scholar so if you have thoughts/ideas on why this would/wouldn't be correct or tweaks that need to be made let me know.

 

[Honorless he/him]

Okay so far we have:

1) secondary spren theory

Each Order has a secondary spren type, which are less sentient, such as Windspren for the Windrunners & Gloryspren for the Bondsmiths

2) Surges theory

That each Order crafts their Plate from their own Surge

3) (incomplete) Plate manifestation theory

That Shardplates are a natural result of the Nahel Bond+Surgebinding somehow, and the Plate is formed directly from Investiture

4) Bondsmiths theory ^

tl;dr: Bondsmiths forge Plates for the Radiants

Most of the other theories involve the secondary spren in some manner

 

(thought I'd keep track)

[Ixthos Luke/Luke]

5 hours ago, Honorless said:

Okay so far we have:

1) secondary spren theory

Each Order has a secondary spren type, which are less sentient, such as Windspren for the Windrunners & Gloryspren for the Bondsmiths

2) Surges theory

That each Order crafts their Plate from their own Surge

3) (incomplete) Plate manifestation theory

That Shardplates are a natural result of the Nahel Bond+Surgebinding somehow, and the Plate is formed directly from Investiture

4) Bondsmiths theory ^

tl;dr: Bondsmiths forge Plates for the Radiants

Most of the other theories involve the secondary spren in some manner

 

(thought I'd keep track)

To be fair, I think some theories are a combination of these ( or all of them), so should theories that are a mixture - like as you note the secondary spren theory being a part of others - count as their own type, or as subtypes? :-P

[Naurock]

8 hours ago, Nellac said:

Bondsmiths could take the essence of the lesser spren, which exists mostly in the cognitive realm, and combine it with the Radiant's surges, which comes from their use of investiture, which is from the spiritual realm, and combines them and brings them into the physical realm to create plate. 

One problem for your theory is it's been hinted that Jasnah already has her plate. At the Battle of Thaylen Field Adolin sees something around Jasnah for a second, after Amaram's soldiers mysteriously were sent flying. Also, earlier in Oathbringer, while Shallan tells Jasnah she's a Radiant now Jasnah asks her where her plate is. 

8 hours ago, Nellac said:

Another idea that I think makes this more likely is the fact that Modern shardplate is seen to be really similar across the board. We even see Dalinar use the gauntlet from Adolin's suit in TWoK.

Shardplate forms to the wearer. Kaladin took a helm and used it as a glove during Adolin's duel.

Quote

As he ran, Kaladin dropped his broken spear and shoved his hand into the helm from the bottom. He’d learned something about Shardplate—it attached itself automatically to its bearer. He’d hoped it might work for the helm now, and it did—the inside tightened around his wrist. When he let go, the helm remained on his hand like a very strange glove.

 

[Ciridae]

@Nellac I think this may be my favorite Shardplate theory, makes a lot of sense to me. At least the part that Harkaylain was a Bondsmith, and was involved in creating Plate.
What also fits is what you describe as proto-Plate, we see both Jasnah and Dalinar with the geometric glowing outlines around their bodies.  Definitely seems like the precursor to Plate, but something else needs to happen to make it full Plate.

@Naurock I dont know if we can say for certain that Jasnah has full Plate yet. Does she refer to herself as a full Radiant at any point? I cant remember, but if she does, then I would agree with you. Might be that she doesn’t even consider herself to be a full Radiant. I think we’ve only seen the glowing outlines on her so far. (And I think the flying people Adolin sees were her using Transportation, not her physically throwing them around with Plate, but that’s unrelated).

Edited January 28, 2020 by Ciridae

[Naurock]

1 hour ago, Ciridae said:

I dont know if we can say for certain that Jasnah has full Plate yet.

We don't know because it's been RAFO'd.

Quote

Questioner

Has Jasnah come up with her armor? Because there's a part where they say that geometric shapes were kind of disappearing and it wasn't like someone changing like they normally would.

Brandon Sanderson

I will RAFO that for now.

Skyward San Francisco signing (Nov. 8, 2018)

Jasnah keeps secrets very well and it was written with the soldiers being thrown entirely off screen and the shapes disappearing as Adolin sees her. As to what she was saying to Shallan was Jasnah attempting to prove to Shallan that she has more to learn. Jasnah still knows more than most.

It may have been transportation as you theorize. But how do you explain the surge of transportation causing geometric shapes around her? We've seen her use transportation from Shadesmar to the Physical Realm

Quote

The air in front of him blurred, as if heated in a ring near the ground. A streak of light spun about the ring, forming a wall five or six feet high. It faded immediately—really, it was just an afterimage, as if something glowing had spun in the circle very quickly.

I don't have the Oathbringer eBook, or else I'd quote that for comparison. The geometric shapes sounds more like Shardplate, but to be fair the three different lashes don't all look the same.

[Karger he/him]

Going one step further mistborn spoilers

Spoiler

With identity feruchemy perhaps you can bypass this problem and get the plate working again. 

I wonder if in SA4 one of the ghoostbloods figuring this out and with the right ancestry or device suddenly manifests plate!

[RShara she/her]

1 hour ago, Naurock said:

We don't know because it's been RAFO'd.

Jasnah keeps secrets very well and it was written with the soldiers being thrown entirely off screen and the shapes disappearing as Adolin sees her. As to what she was saying to Shallan was Jasnah attempting to prove to Shallan that she has more to learn. Jasnah still knows more than most.

It may have been transportation as you theorize. But how do you explain the surge of transportation causing geometric shapes around her? We've seen her use transportation from Shadesmar to the Physical Realm

I don't have the Oathbringer eBook, or else I'd quote that for comparison. The geometric shapes sounds more like Shardplate, but to be fair the three different lashes don't all look the same.

But there's also this one

Quote

Questioner

It's very subtle, but at the end of Oathbringer, when Jasnah goes to find Shallan on the battlefield, she goes to grab Shallan, Shallan's over here as Radiant. She has Shards *inaudible*?

Brandon Sanderson

That's a Read and Find Out. I'm being very coy on Shardplate, even though you have seen characters with it in the books before. Because I want to wait until I can do some reveals in viewpoint character.

I will tell you this: You have indeed seen people with Shardplate multiple times in the books. Or at least, the soon aftermath of someone.

FanX 2018 (Sept. 6, 2018)

I don't know what would qualify as "Soon aftermath" other than the lines fading around Jasnah.

[Naurock]

Thanks @RShara, I had forgotten about that WoB. 

[Pathfinder]

4 hours ago, Naurock said:

One problem for your theory is it's been hinted that Jasnah already has her plate. At the Battle of Thaylen Field Adolin sees something around Jasnah for a second, after Amaram's soldiers mysteriously were sent flying. Also, earlier in Oathbringer, while Shallan tells Jasnah she's a Radiant now Jasnah asks her where her plate is. 

Shardplate forms to the wearer. Kaladin took a helm and used it as a glove during Adolin's duel.

 

Interesting WoB below regarding using transportation

 

Questioner

So, Jasnah has the same shape appear around her as when she first appears out of Shadesmar at the end of that-- At the end of the second book, when she appears out of Shadesmar, she has the same shape appear around her as she does in the last battle, but we never see her do anything (this is about Transportation) And we saw people flying away beforehand. Can you-- Does Transportation allow you to push other people. Similar to Lashings, but kinda differently. I'm just wondering if you can use it on other people, basically? 

Brandon Sanderson

You can, but it's not what you’re thinking. 

Oathbringer Chicago signing (Nov. 21, 2017)

[Karger he/him]

1 hour ago, RShara said:

I don't know what would qualify as "Soon aftermath" other than the lines fading around Jasnah.

43 minutes ago, Naurock said:

Thanks @RShara, I had forgotten about that WoB. 

This may well be true but first of all that perpendicularity is going on and so all sorts of things are happening that normally could not and also I would not underestimate Brandon's ability to put something past all of us.

[SanderFan69]

I think this is interesting because we never actually see any of the 4th ideal skybreakers with shardplate. If your theory is correct, then it would make sense since there would have been no bondsmith to forge together the armor for them. Or maybe skybreakers get their plate at their 5th oath and this might have something to do with why none of them have attained the 5th ideal in years.

[Frustration]

21 hours ago, SanderFan69 said:

I think this is interesting because we never actually see any of the 4th ideal skybreakers with shardplate. If your theory is correct, then it would make sense since there would have been no bondsmith to forge together the armor for them. Or maybe skybreakers get their plate at their 5th oath and this might have something to do with why none of them have attained the 5th ideal in years.

I personally am of the opinion that rules that apply to one order do not apply to all, Bondsmiths don't have blades, Lightweavers only have one true oath, and I also think that Skybreakers get plate on the 5th ideal, Lightweavers, Truthwatchers, and Dustbringers get blades before third Ideal.  

[Nellac]

20 minutes ago, Booknerd said:

Lightweavers, Truthwatchers, and Dustbringers get blades before third Ideal.  

What is your source for this statement? We see Shallan having it before third ideal, but she's different because she swore oath and then went back and restarted the process so this could just be a side affect. As for the others, I'm assuming you are talking about Renarin and Malata. We have seen these two use blades, but we don't really know where they are in their oaths so can't say whether they've sworn the third or not.

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, Nellac said:

What is your source for this statement? We see Shallan having it before third ideal, but she's different because she swore oath and then went back and restarted the process so this could just be a side affect. As for the others, I'm assuming you are talking about Renarin and Malata. We have seen these two use blades, but we don't really know where they are in their oaths so can't say whether they've sworn the third or not.

well yes exactly. Also I have a hard time believing Renarin had time to say Thee Ideals between WoR and OB 

[Pathfinder]

21 minutes ago, Booknerd said:

well yes exactly. Also I have a hard time believing Renarin had time to say Thee Ideals between WoR and OB 

Well the first oath seems to be easy enough to swear, and counts if you mean it. You don't have to say it (life before death, etc). Renarin was having future sight as of WoR for awhile, so he theoretically could have sworn that oath at around the beginning of WoR. By the end with the climax of WoR he could have sworn the third oath, which would be why when they explore Urithiru he has a shardblade. Just throwing out an idea. Nothing concrete. 

[ScavellTane]

I'm thinking Lightweavers make shardplate. 

[Nellac]

15 hours ago, ScavellTane said:

I'm thinking Lightweavers make shardplate. 

Why them in particular?

[ScavellTane]

As yet, Lightweavers are the only Radiant that have the ability to fully 'encase' a person in stormlight.

[Nellac]

4 hours ago, ScavellTane said:

As yet, Lightweavers are the only Radiant that have the ability to fully 'encase' a person in stormlight.

Are you sure about that? In oathbringer it is hinted that Yasnah has something reminiscent of plate. Also, that doesn't really make sense given the state of the radiants. The lightweaver's as an order don't seem to be like the quartermasters of the radiants. Also, what do you define as "encasing"? It could be said that when someone is lashed they are encased in stormlight because it's covering them and making them glow. You could also just use the lashing that sticks things together and completely cover someone with it. One more thing, if lightweavers can just make plate, why don't they make some for the common people as well? If I'm not correct, which is absolutely a possibility, I find it more likely that each order gets their plate differently then the lightweavers make all the plate.

Edited February 4, 2020 by Nellac