Kandra religion?

[rhavek he/him]

I’m still kinda new here, so apologies if this has been discussed before. I’ve been thinking about the kandra religion and their prophecies after my last reread of the Mistborn series. In WoA, OreSeur (TenSoon) tells Vin that the kandra have a prophecy that they will only be free of the Contract when all the humans are dead. While he states that the prophecies are metaphorical, I could easily see some kandra taking them literally. 

 So my first question is: did the kandra religion arise organically separate from the old Terris religion? Did the Lord Ruler know about it?
Secondly, I wondered if this is connected to the Set’s Faceless Immortals? Are they a splinter group of radicals who want to bring about the removal of humankind through a twisted interpretation? 

I’m curious what others think. Maybe I’m way off base!

 

 

Edited December 27, 2019 by rhavek
Forgot a word

[GoWibble he/him]

first, have you read the second era? That kind of has some spoilers if you haven't

[rhavek he/him]

Yeah, I’ve read read all of the Cosmere works. 

[StanLemon]

I personally think it started with the Terris religion but once the Second Generation came around, they started to have their own view of things, thinking they were superior to humans and hating the mistborn who could control them. I think those two factors mixed in with the original Terris beliefs and after centuries of posturing it became the Kandra religion in the books

[Karger he/him]

57 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

I personally think it started with the Terris religion but once the Second Generation came around, they started to have their own view of things, thinking they were superior to humans and hating the mistborn who could control them. I think those two factors mixed in with the original Terris beliefs and after centuries of posturing it became the Kandra religion in the books

This seems close to the truth.  Cultures evolve.

2 hours ago, rhavek said:

Secondly, I wondered if this is connected to the Set’s Faceless Immortals? Are they a splinter group of radicals who want to bring about the removal of humankind through a twisted interpretation? 

To the best of our knowledge those are not Kandra.

[Gilphon]

It's really hard for me to imagine that those Faceless Immortals could be Kandra. It would take a lot for there to be a whole bunch or rogue Kandra out there that Harmony's not aware of. And surely he'd let people know if he knew about them.

I mean... I guess if you found a bunch of Kandra who had never been put back together after the Catacendre, and filled them Trellium spikes? It's hard for me to imagine that Trell's been active for that long, though. 

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

On 12/27/2019 at 5:39 PM, Gilphon said:

It's really hard for me to imagine that those Faceless Immortals could be Kandra. It would take a lot for there to be a whole bunch or rogue Kandra out there that Harmony's not aware of. And surely he'd let people know if he knew about them.

I mean... I guess if you found a bunch of Kandra who had never been put back together after the Catacendre, and filled them Trellium spikes? It's hard for me to imagine that Trell's been active for that long, though. 

Trellagism predates Rashek’s ascension. And:

Spoiler

Trell is a minor White Sand character. This has been confirmed as intentional and is not a coincidence. White Sand predates everything else published, I believe.

 

[Gilphon]

Right, but modern Trellism is pretty different from Trellagism- and nor is it like Trell is just some guy; Trell is a shard. Ruin and Preservation would've noticed if another Shard was actively doing stuff back when they were around. Trell would've had to arrive right after Ruin died, and then just sit around avoiding Harmony's attention for 300 hundred years. It seems a lot more likely to me that Trell is arrived relatively recently and revived the pre-ascension religion.

Or, really what I think happened is that the ancient Trellagists were descendants from worldhoppers from Taldain, and the guy you're referring to exists and is named that to show us where the name comes from, and entity is calling itself Trell on Scadrial is not the same individual in any meaningful way. 

[Karger he/him]

2 minutes ago, Gilphon said:

Ruin and Preservation would've noticed if another Shard was actively doing stuff back when they were around

Would they.  If that shard kept a low profile I honestly doubt either shard would notice.  They were kind of occupied with each other.

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

13 minutes ago, Gilphon said:

Right, but modern Trellism is pretty different from Trellagism- and nor is it like Trell is just some guy; Trell is a shard. Ruin and Preservation would've noticed if another Shard was actively doing stuff back when they were around. Trell would've had to arrive right after Ruin died, and then just sit around avoiding Harmony's attention for 300 hundred years. It seems a lot more likely to me that Trell is arrived relatively recently and revived the pre-ascension religion.

Or, really what I think happened is that the ancient Trellagists were descendants from worldhoppers from Taldain, and the guy you're referring to exists and is named that to show us where the name comes from, and entity is calling itself Trell on Scadrial is not the same individual in any meaningful way. 

Ruin was trapped in the Pit, and so was limited in his awareness. Leras was dying and lacked proper clarity. And this has been the case for millennia. I doubt either was in much of a state to notice if another Shard was doing something subtly.

[Gilphon]

I'm pretty sure Ruin would notice at the point when Perservation's basically dead and he's just destroying everything. Certainly he'd be an idiot not be at least conscious of the possibility of other Shards stepping in, and surely a big chunk of investiture that doesn't belong to him or Preservation is gonna stick out like a sore thumb.

I almost feel pretty confident that while Ruin was sealed and Preservation was desperately trying to think of a plan to stop him for good, that kind of interference would be the kind of thing he'd check for. It's certainly not like holding back Ruin took his entire mental capacity; he was still making a point to personally speak with everyone who died on Scadrial.  

Though really it's hard for me to buy that a Shard could possibly miss the presence of another Shard under even the worst circumstances. Like maybe a newly ascended Harmony wouldn't initially realize that that big chunk of power that doesn't belong to him isn't supposed to be there, but that's still not being unaware of it's presence. Certainly Trell's presence is very obvious to Harmony by Era 2, what with it manifesting in the cognitive realm as red tendrils attacking everything. 

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

On 12/29/2019 at 8:34 PM, Gilphon said:

I'm pretty sure Ruin would notice at the point when Perservation's basically dead and he's just destroying everything. Certainly he'd be an idiot not be at least conscious of the possibility of other Shards stepping in, and surely a big chunk of investiture that doesn't belong to him or Preservation is gonna stick out like a sore thumb.

I almost feel pretty confident that while Ruin was sealed and Preservation was desperately trying to think of a plan to stop him for good, that kind of interference would be the kind of thing he'd check for. It's certainly not like holding back Ruin took his entire mental capacity; he was still making a point to personally speak with everyone who died on Scadrial.  

Though really it's hard for me to buy that a Shard could possibly miss the presence of another Shard under even the worst circumstances. Like maybe a newly ascended Harmony wouldn't initially realize that that big chunk of power that doesn't belong to him isn't supposed to be there, but that's still not being unaware of it's presence. Certainly Trell's presence is very obvious to Harmony by Era 2, what with it manifesting in the cognitive realm as red tendrils attacking everything. 

Leras had his plan BEFORE trapping Ruin. And any outside Shardic interference would have occurred much later. Looking into the Spiritual realm isn’t that simple, even for a Shard. Preservation was focused on saving Scadrial and defeating Ruin. 

Once Ruin was free, I think any other Shard would have left. If a Shard was there to begin with; its possible ‘Trell’ sent human agents first, to seed things. But I do think that the manipulation was going on earlier, although direct interference may have occurred later.

[Gilphon]

I mean, it's kind of besides the point once you get to that, isn't it? You need Trellium to successfully hide rogue Kandra from Harmony, and you can't get Trellium without direct interference. 

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

On 12/31/2019 at 2:41 AM, Gilphon said:

I mean, it's kind of besides the point once you get to that, isn't it? You need Trellium to successfully hide rogue Kandra from Harmony, and you can't get Trellium without direct interference. 

No, the metal could be imported from another world. It may not naturally occur on Scadrial at all.

@Gilphon I just found a WOB about the alternate ending to WOA. In that ending there were Shards present, one of which was Endowment. While the ending was scrapped (due to not working) some elements may still be cannon.

Edited January 1, 2020 by Kingsdaughter613