Mistborn vs Else

[Karger he/him]

21 minutes ago, Nameless said:

What I think @SwordNimiForPresident is getting at is that the Mistborn tosses the metal outside the bubble, then uses steel and iron to maneuver it into position, before repeatedly smashing it into the Radiants faceplate.

I have no idea if that would work and if it does work why have Wax and Wayne not done it?  It also has another problem.  It is going to be deflected even from just the throw and you will have to wait for it to fall to the position you want it to.  Also the radiant can easily counter by making a shardshield and running directly at you.

[Bigmikey357 he/him]

When someone generates a time bubble that bubble manifests centered on the caster, right? And the Cadmium bubble is bigger than the bendalloy bubble right?  So how can the Mistborn catch the Radiant in the speed bubble without being effected by that same patch of distorted time? Using the time bubbles doesn't make sense unless one is using the Allomantic Grenade method. That would work for taking out a Radiant but that's magical tool territory. 

edit: Ok Thinking about what one is trying to do with the time manipulation.  So are you guys proposing tossing up the Cadmium bubble as the  Radiant comes into range and then popping the bendalloy bubble inside that cad bubble, thus trapping the Radiant in slow time and the Mistborn is in normal time? Physical objects passing through that barrier are going to have a hard time.  Say you catch the Radiant within sword range in that pocket of slow time.  That sword isn't going to survive the time stream difference I don't think.  So what about projectiles?  They are going to be near impossible to aim, but even if you could push/pull metal from inside that bendalloy bubble the projectiles will still move in slow time. So put a bunch of projectiles in the air and try to aim them before dropping the bubble. When everything returns to normal time the Radiant is facing a shotgun blast worth of metal appearing before they could possibly react.  Well whatever the mistborn decides to do they must be quick, Bendalloy burns nearly as fast as Atium.

Edited April 2, 2020 by Bigmikey357

[NameIess]

15 minutes ago, Karger said:

I have no idea if that would work and if it does work why have Wax and Wayne not done it?  It also has another problem.  It is going to be deflected even from just the throw and you will have to wait for it to fall to the position you want it to.  Also the radiant can easily counter by making a shardshield and running directly at you.

Wax doesn't have iron, only steel. And the Mistborn can just put the projectile behind the Radiant.

14 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

When someone generates a time bubble that bubble manifests centered on the caster, right? And the Cadmium bubble is bigger than the bendalloy bubble right?  So how can the Mistborn catch the Radiant in the speed bubble without being effected by that same patch of distorted time? Using the time bubbles doesn't make sense unless one is using the Allomantic Grenade method. That would work for taking out a Radiant but that's magical tool territory. 

If the Radiant makes a big Cadmium (slow) bubble, then they can make a small bendalloy (fast) bubble around them. The bendalloy bubble cancels out the cadmium, leaving the Radiant slow.

[Karger he/him]

28 minutes ago, Nameless said:

If the Radiant makes a big Cadmium (slow) bubble, then they can make a small bendalloy (fast) bubble around them. The bendalloy bubble cancels out the cadmium, leaving the Radiant slow.

Leaving them in a bendalloy bubble thus not solving the original problem.

28 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Wax doesn't have iron, only steel. And the Mistborn can just put the projectile behind the Radiant.

That still might not work.  I don't know how iron and bendalloy interact but it stands to reason that it is not easily.

[Frustration]

2 hours ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

If plate can stand up to getting jackhammered then nothing can break it and Radiants are invincible. I suggested duralumin earlier as a means of breaking plate in one push. I have since updated that and now recommend breaking the plate with thousands of strikes from a single coin being pushed and pulled repeatedly. It doesn’t really need to be a coin either. It could just as easily be a ball bering or other hard metallic object.

Ball Bering would roll more so you just increased the problem. Plate is extremely resilient it takes multiple hits from weapons that cut stone like hot butter, additionally in order to actually get the force out of the push it has to connect which will cause it to move along the face plate and away from the previous hit. As to jackhammers, you'll notice that they are meant to be used on the surface beneath them, not adjacent, and provide the necessary force to break stone/other materials, repeated hits from insufficient force won't do anything it would take years of me poking my wall before I make a window.

[Karger he/him]

5 hours ago, Booknerd said:

Ball Bering would roll more so you just increased the problem. Plate is extremely resilient it takes multiple hits from weapons that cut stone like hot butter, additionally in order to actually get the force out of the push it has to connect which will cause it to move along the face plate and away from the previous hit. As to jackhammers, you'll notice that they are meant to be used on the surface beneath them, not adjacent, and provide the necessary force to break stone/other materials, repeated hits from insufficient force won't do anything it would take years of me poking my wall before I make a window.

All true.  If you want to do this method a think a d-push is the best option as even if you miss you will be thrown clear and might survive the next few seconds.

[SwordNimiForPresident the sword/that sword]

12 hours ago, Booknerd said:

Ball Bering would roll more so you just increased the problem. Plate is extremely resilient it takes multiple hits from weapons that cut stone like hot butter, additionally in order to actually get the force out of the push it has to connect which will cause it to move along the face plate and away from the previous hit. As to jackhammers, you'll notice that they are meant to be used on the surface beneath them, not adjacent, and provide the necessary force to break stone/other materials, repeated hits from insufficient force won't do anything it would take years of me poking my wall before I make a window.

We will have to agree to disagree. You seem to think steel pushes carry the same force as a slap, so there is no convincing you.

You also seem to be making the assumption that the Mistborn can only strike from directly in front of the Radiant causing the metal to deflect off of the angled faceplate. If the Mistborn has a brain, they can simply take two steps to the side and hit the helmet from a perpendicular angle.

Im honestly surprised people are arguing that a Mistborn can’t kill a Radiant that is effectively frozen in place and unable to act. Are the Stormlight books incredibly boring to you as a result of your belief that Radiants are invincible?

Edited April 3, 2020 by SwordNimiForPresident

[SwordNimiForPresident the sword/that sword]

13 hours ago, Karger said:

Leaving them in a bendalloy bubble thus not solving the original problem.

That still might not work.  I don't know how iron and bendalloy interact but it stands to reason that it is not easily.

I don’t see the problem. The Mistborn has a cadmium and bendalloy bubble up at the same time. This means that the Mistborn is standing in regular speed time and has a thin layer of slow time forming a shield around them. When the Radiant approaches, they will get trapped in the thin layer of slow time and be easy pickings for the Mistborn.

Deflection from the bubbles is not an issue. It’s only ever really a problem for Wax because he’s trying to shoot out of one. If he was pushing on metal that is already outside the bubble there would be no deflection. I’m actually curious about what happens when pushes cross time barriers. Since the person pushing is in sped up time does the push exert more force over time on the outside? Might be a good question for Brandon.

Back to or situation, the Mistborn can toss pieces of metal into the slow time and then just pick the one that is at the correct angle for a push. Everything in the slow time moves extremely slowly, so the Mistborn can just juggle the pieces with iron and steel without them crossing the barrier between bubbles again. I’m honestly surprised that I have to break it down this much.

[Frustration]

31 minutes ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

We will have to agree to disagree. You seem to think steel pushes carry the same force as a slap, so there is no convincing you.

I've  stated above that regular plate is only dented by 160+ pound war bows, which correct me if I'm wrong is around the average weight of men in the beginning of 2002 according to the CDC. And we're talking about people who don't have fast food yet so on average they are going to be lighter. And Shardplate being better than regular plate would take that in stride.

37 minutes ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

You also seem to be making the assumption that the Mistborn can only strike from directly in front of the Radiant causing the metal to deflect off of the angled faceplate. If the Mistborn has a brain, they can simply take two steps to the side and hit the helmet from a perpendicular angle.

Anywhere you hit you will have this problem, it's designed that way so that the plate re-directs arrows instead of stopping them completely. Simply by pushing an object against a angled surface it will deflect, and if the Mistborn somehow manages to get a perfect 90 degree shot the Radiant's head will move, changing the angle so it was pointless from the start.

41 minutes ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

Im honestly surprised people are arguing that a Mistborn can’t kill a Radiant that is effectively frozen in place and unable to act. Are the Stormlight books incredibly boring to you as a result of your belief that Radiants are invincible?

Stormlight and Shardplate together effectively make one Superman. The only way so far I know of to kill them is to just hit them with everything you have and eventually they will stop healing. Also I enjoy Stormlight better than most other series(excluding re-reads Brandon put's too much time on character conflict that the second time isn't near as interesting)

 

[SwordNimiForPresident the sword/that sword]

1 hour ago, Booknerd said:

I've  stated above that regular plate is only dented by 160+ pound war bows, which correct me if I'm wrong is around the average weight of men in the beginning of 2002 according to the CDC. And we're talking about people who don't have fast food yet so on average they are going to be lighter. And Shardplate being better than regular plate would take that in stride.

Anywhere you hit you will have this problem, it's designed that way so that the plate re-directs arrows instead of stopping them completely. Simply by pushing an object against a angled surface it will deflect, and if the Mistborn somehow manages to get a perfect 90 degree shot the Radiant's head will move, changing the angle so it was pointless from the start.

Stormlight and Shardplate together effectively make one Superman. The only way so far I know of to kill them is to just hit them with everything you have and eventually they will stop healing. Also I enjoy Stormlight better than most other series(excluding re-reads Brandon put's too much time on character conflict that the second time isn't near as interesting)

 

I’m not sure how the draw weight of a bow and arrow apples to the ballistics of coins, but I can say with a fair amount of certainty that a piece of metal that is being constantly accelerated along its entire flight path is carrying more force than an arrow. I’m also not sure why the average weight of a person factors into this.

A low angle impact will result in a ricochet rather than a deflection. The reason deflecting an arrow works is that arrows are bladed weapons that kill through cutting a large wound channel. Bullets create a wound channel by delivering a large amount of kinetic force on a small surface area. This is why we stopped using plate armor at the advent of fire arms. Comparing coins or any other random metal projectile to arrows is apples to oranges IMO.

As I said before, agree to disagree about plate. It is durable, not invincible. If I remember correctly the Parshendi used regular soldiers with stone hammers to break armor worn by the Alethi, but I don’t have a book handy to check. Coinshot > stone hammer > Shardplate.

edit: just to drive it home, you are basically arguing that a Mistborn could not kill a Radiant if they were lying unconscious on the ground in their plate.

Edited April 3, 2020 by SwordNimiForPresident

[Frustration]

2 minutes ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

I’m not sure how the draw weight of a bow and arrow apples to the ballistics of coins, but I can say with a fair amount of certainty that a piece of metal that is being constantly accelerated along its entire flight path is carrying more force than an arrow. I’m also not sure why the average weight of a person factors into this.

It's their weight that propels the coins

3 minutes ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

A low angle impact will result in a ricochet rather than a deflection. The reason deflecting an arrow works is that arrows are bladed weapons that kill through cutting a large wound channel. Bullets create a wound channel by delivering a large amount of kinetic force on a small surface area.

 The difference being?(not trying to be offensive here I'm not entirely sure what you mean)

5 minutes ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

This is why we stopped using plate armor at the advent of fire arms. Comparing coins or any other random metal projectile to arrows is apples to oranges IMO.

Rudimentary firearms and Plate co-existed, it wasn't until later that plate was forsaken in lieu of armor designed for bullets, and I would argue that even bullets aren't enough to crack plate

8 minutes ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

IAs I said before, agree to disagree about plate. It is durable, not invincible. If I remember correctly the Parshendi used regular soldiers with stone hammers to break armor worn by the Alethi, but I don’t have a book handy to check. Coinshot > stone hammer > Shardplate.

hammers and maces best use is blunt force trauma, namely against the head , breaking armor is something you see in movies but wouldn't happen under normal circumstances,

[SwordNimiForPresident the sword/that sword]

3 minutes ago, Booknerd said:

It's their weight that propels the coins

 The difference being?(not trying to be offensive here I'm not entirely sure what you mean)

Rudimentary firearms and Plate co-existed, it wasn't until later that plate was forsaken in lieu of armor designed for bullets, and I would argue that even bullets aren't enough to crack plate

hammers and maces best use is blunt force trauma, namely against the head , breaking armor is something you see in movies but wouldn't happen under normal circumstances,

It is their weight that propels the coin, however that weight is applied constantly and into a very small surface area.

A bullet that ricochets at a small angle still delivers most of its energy to the target. In something like plate, which shatters, you are better off delivering all of your force to a small surface area. That’s why the distinction between arrows and bullets matters. Arrow snap or twist or collapse on a hit where they can’t penetrate or deflect. This dissipates their energy over a large surface area and time frame (relative to other projectiles).

If you would argue that bullets aren’t enough to crack plate, you are wrong. As another poster linked earlier, Brandon has explicitly said that bullets can crack plate.

Hammers and war picks are explicitly designed to damage armor. Putting a large amount of kinetic force into a small surface area and a hard material gives the weapon exceptional ability to penetrate or dent metal armor. It’s really the same principal as a bullet applied to a hand weapon.  Maces can also be designed for this purpose if they are of the winged variety.

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

If you would argue that bullets aren’t enough to crack plate, you are wrong. As another poster linked earlier, Brandon has explicitly said that bullets can crack plate.

Those are highly specialized bullets and gun so I'd say that they don't count your standard firearm won't cut it.

2 minutes ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

Hammers and war picks are explicitly designed to damage armor. Putting a large amount of kinetic force into a small surface area and a hard material gives the weapon exceptional ability to penetrate or dent metal armor. It’s really the same principal as a bullet applied to a hand weapon.  Maces can also be designed for this purpose if they are of the winged variety.

war picks yes, and real warhammers(they look almost exactly like their normal cousins so shut up Thor) could be used that way but Parshendi stone hammers? no, not really. And things that would total standard plate shardplate eatss up so most would not be a problem, maybe special tools designed to be used by another shardbearer or only against shardbearers, but I don't see anyone able to just carry that around.

[StanLemon]

I'm just going to put my two clips in on the amount of force carried. A 9mm hits with about 5 to 6 times the force of an English longbow. Even a standard medieval crossbow hit with double the force of a longbow. A coin has repeatedly been shown to hit with enough force to instantly kill people which was rare even for an longbow unless it struck a super vital area. Now the average Mistborn doesn't push at the force of a bullet by any means, but I would assume that it's somewhere between a crossbow and bullet though I would guess crossbow would be closer.

Edited April 3, 2020 by StanLemon

[Karger he/him]

3 hours ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

I don’t see the problem. The Mistborn has a cadmium and bendalloy bubble up at the same time. This means that the Mistborn is standing in regular speed time and has a thin layer of slow time forming a shield around them. When the Radiant approaches, they will get trapped in the thin layer of slow time and be easy pickings for the Mistborn.

Except if bubbles are different sizes there is no garentee you will not still get the deflection pattern from both bubbles.  The only difference is that the Mistborn is doing this at normal speed to an outside observer.

3 hours ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

Deflection from the bubbles is not an issue. It’s only ever really a problem for Wax because he’s trying to shoot out of one. If he was pushing on metal that is already outside the bubble there would be no deflection

I think Wax should have figured this out if it was possible.

3 hours ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

If he was pushing on metal that is already outside the bubble there would be no deflection

If that were possible you think.  You are speculating here.  I very much thing that a problem with this exists.

3 hours ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

Back to or situation, the Mistborn can toss pieces of metal into the slow time and then just pick the one that is at the correct angle for a push. Everything in the slow time moves extremely slowly, so the Mistborn can just juggle the pieces with iron and steel without them crossing the barrier between bubbles again. I’m honestly surprised that I have to break it down this much.

They need a perfect hit still and if the Radiant shardshields this strategy is largely for naught.  Also assuming this actually works you are pushing much faster on iron and steal meaning they will accelerate really quickly and unpredictably.

[Frustration]

51 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

I'm just going to put my two clips in on the amount of force carried. A 9mm hits with about 5 to 6 times the force of an English longbow. Even a standard medieval crossbow hit with double the force of a longbow. A coin has repeatedly been shown to hit with enough force to instantly kill people which was rare even for an longbow unless it struck a super vital area. Now the average Mistborn doesn't push at the force of a bullet by any means, but I would assume that it's somewhere between a crossbow and bullet though I would guess crossbow would be closer.

I'll be totally honest I have barely any knowledge about firearms, but Coins killing people only hit the places where a bow would kill.

[SwordNimiForPresident the sword/that sword]

14 minutes ago, Karger said:

Except if bubbles are different sizes there is no garentee you will not still get the deflection pattern from both bubbles.  The only difference is that the Mistborn is doing this at normal speed to an outside observer.

I think Wax should have figured this out if it was possible.

If that were possible you think.  You are speculating here.  I very much thing that a problem with this exists.

They need a perfect hit still and if the Radiant shardshields this strategy is largely for naught.  Also assuming this actually works you are pushing much faster on iron and steal meaning they will accelerate really quickly and unpredictably.

The difference is that the Mistborn is in normal time speed and the Radiant is in cadmium speed while only being a few inches apart. That is the entire point of what I’m saying.

Well we haven’t seen him do it, so it seems he hasn’t.

What problem exists? The metal is already past the deflection point, what would cause more deflections?

If the Radiant puts up a shield then move to the side and shoot around it.

[StanLemon]

12 minutes ago, Booknerd said:

I'll be totally honest I have barely any knowledge about firearms, but Coins killing people only hit the places where a bow would kill.

While possibly true, the only real instances of people who have survived being hit by coins that we know of in the books are from someone burning Pewter 

[StanLemon]

The thing is, we dont actually know what the force of a Steelpush is which muddies things. While we are told that it is weight against weight, we have plenty of examples from the books that shows that clearly isn't the whole story. Vin vs Kelsier, Elend vs the Iquisitor, Wax's ability to moderate his pushes, etc. It must be a fairly strong force too considering the things that we have seen Steelpushes do

[Karger he/him]

1 hour ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

The difference is that the Mistborn is in normal time speed and the Radiant is in cadmium speed while only being a few inches apart. That is the entire point of what I’m saying.

Except the bubble is still there.  The deflection is caused by it.  From the Radiant's perspective the bubble is still there.

1 hour ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

Well we haven’t seen him do it, so it seems he hasn’t.

Which I think is telling considering the two of them have been at this for decades.

1 hour ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

What problem exists? The metal is already past the deflection point, what would cause more deflections?

You might not be able to put a stealpush through a bubble.  The investiture might interfere.  Combining abilities often gives odd results.

1 hour ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

If the Radiant puts up a shield then move to the side and shoot around it.

You need to open and collapse several bubbles to do that by which time the Radiant might have moved themselves and will probably know what you are doing.

[SwordNimiForPresident the sword/that sword]

4 minutes ago, Karger said:

Except the bubble is still there.  The deflection is caused by it.  From the Radiant's perspective the bubble is still there.

Which I think is telling considering the two of them have been at this for decades.

You might not be able to put a stealpush through a bubble.  The investiture might interfere.  Combining abilities often gives odd results.

You need to open and collapse several bubbles to do that by which time the Radiant might have moved themselves and will probably know what you are doing.

I feel like we are having different conversations. I address your point and then you quote it back to me in a different context.

There was never any question of the bubble still being there, I don’t know how you got the impression that I was saying it isn’t. The entire point, which I have repeated several times, is that the metal can stay in the same time speed as the Radiant and not be deflected several times.

Or it simply isn’t convenient for the plot given that it would greatly simplify combat.

You might not be able to, but we know that steel lines show through them from Wax’s trick shot at the end of AoL. If the lines show, I see no reason they can’t be pushed. Brandon can feel free to clear that one up, anything else is speculation.

Why would you need to collapse the bubble to take two steps to the side?

[Karger he/him]

1 minute ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

There was never any question of the bubble still being there, I don’t know how you got the impression that I was saying it isn’t. The entire point, which I have repeated several times, is that the metal can stay in the same time speed as the Radiant and not be deflected several times.

Then why is the cadmium there?

2 minutes ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

Or it simply isn’t convenient for the plot given that it would greatly simplify combat.

Brandon is going to have to justify that.  Also in era three when anyone can burn bendalloy and steal you are going to have to maintain this. 

3 minutes ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

You might not be able to, but we know that steel lines show through them from Wax’s trick shot at the end of AoL. If the lines show, I see no reason they can’t be pushed. Brandon can feel free to clear that one up, anything else is speculation.

So I am going to assume you are correct.  You CAN push.  However it does not really gain you anything beyond a more accurate shot.  To increase the velocity of the metal you are going to have to accelerate it.  Acceleration has to be accomplished over time.  From the metal's perspective it the push happens in slow time.  Meaning you are going to have to push for much longer in your slowtime to get the same amount of force.

7 minutes ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

Why would you need to collapse the bubble to take two steps to the side?

The bubbles don't tend to be particularly large and if the shield is large enough you might need a good 45 degree reposition that you are not going to get from two steps.

[SwordNimiForPresident the sword/that sword]

2 minutes ago, Karger said:

Then why is the cadmium there?

Brandon is going to have to justify that.  Also in era three when anyone can burn bendalloy and steal you are going to have to maintain this. 

So I am going to assume you are correct.  You CAN push.  However it does not really gain you anything beyond a more accurate shot.  To increase the velocity of the metal you are going to have to accelerate it.  Acceleration has to be accomplished over time.  From the metal's perspective it the push happens in slow time.  Meaning you are going to have to push for much longer in your slowtime to get the same amount of force.

The bubbles don't tend to be particularly large and if the shield is large enough you might need a good 45 degree reposition that you are not going to get from two steps.

What are you talking about? Are you high? The cadmium is there to trap the Radiant in slowed down time. The bendalloy is there so that the Mistborn is not trapped in slowed down time. Cadmium bubbles are bigger than bendalloy bubble. This means that making both on top of each other results in a thin layer of cadmium time with normal time on either side. I will no clarify this again. If you don’t understand it, I can’t help you.

The person pushing is in normal time. The objecting being pushed is in slowed time. From the perspective of the pusher, the object is moving in slow motion. From the perspective of the object, it is being pushed extremely hard and fast.

If the Radiant creates a hamster ball out of their Shardblade, you are correct, the Mistborn will not be able to harm them. At least not until they dismiss the blade with chrome.

As a final note, I’m tired of covering the same ground over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over, so I’m out.

[Frustration]

4 minutes ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

What are you talking about? Are you high? The cadmium is there to trap the Radiant in slowed down time. The bendalloy is there so that the Mistborn is not trapped in slowed down time. Cadmium bubbles are bigger than bendalloy bubble. This means that making both on top of each other results in a thin layer of cadmium time with normal time on either side. I will no clarify this again. If you don’t understand it, I can’t help you.

What @Karger means is why not just use Bendalloy.

[Karger he/him]

6 minutes ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

What are you talking about? Are you high?

Are you OK?  We are clearly having a miscommunication.  Accusing me of taking drugs is not helping your case or leading to anything productive.

6 minutes ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

The cadmium is there to trap the Radiant in slowed down time

But if the radiant is in slowed down time and manages to get to the end of the bubble and escape then they will speed up to be as fast as you.  Even if they don't I really don't see the purpose.  You are faster then the radiant because of your speed bubble.  Cadmium slows you both down equally gaining you no advantage.

6 minutes ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

From the perspective of the pusher, the object is moving in slow motion. From the perspective of the object, it is being pushed extremely hard and fast.

Which if true basically gives the combination a portable railgun that would allow Wax and Wayne to demolish large objects by themselves.  This is why I don't think this will work easily.

6 minutes ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

If the Radiant creates a hamster ball out of their Shardblade, you are correct, the Mistborn will not be able to harm them. At least not until they dismiss the blade with chrome.

A good tower shield would work as well. 

Just now, Booknerd said:

What @Karger means is why not just use Bendalloy.

Was I not clear?

Edited April 3, 2020 by Karger