Kelsier and Harmony's book

[Necessary Eagle she/her]

Do you think the book that Harmony left behind at the end of HoA mentions Kelsier's stint as Preservation? Because that would make doctrinal arguments between Pathists and Survivorists pretty funny. "Yes, we actually also believe he was a god... of a sort.. briefly."

[HSuperLee he/him]

We are told that it does in Shadows of Self I believe. It's in the bit where they talk about MeLaan having not read any of Sazed's books. It is in fact used as a defense for Survivorism. Frankly I've just always been confused, because I figure Sazed would have included Kelsier starting a religion specifically to start a revolution, and it seems like that would create some theological issues. Not that they're irreconcilable, I just want to know how they deal with the record basically being, "Oh yeah, your god made that stuff up about his own divinity."

Survivorists probably use his brief divinity to elevate him, showing that he is a good enough person to step down from divinity to allow someone else to follow in his footsteps or something. Really, I just want to know more about the religion in general.

Edited December 11, 2019 by HSuperLee

[Karger he/him]

Yes.  It is in the Historica.  Honestly what kind of godless person are you?

Edited December 11, 2019 by Ookla the Prolific

[Necessary Eagle she/her]

I just did a reread of all the Era 1 material (including pertinent fanfic), but I don't have any of the E2 books on hand. Glad to know they know, just because the idea amuses me.

(I probably should borrow Era 2 again; I have an essay I want to write about SoS and the concept of fridged women).

Edited December 11, 2019 by Necessary Ookla
STOP TRYING TO "CORRECT" MY SPELLING you stupid phone

[RShara she/her]

38 minutes ago, Necessary Ookla said:

Do you think the book that Harmony left behind at the end of HoA mentions Kelsier's stint as Preservation? Because that would make doctrinal arguments between Pathists and Survivorists pretty funny. "Yes, we actually also believe he was a god... of a sort.. briefly."

Yes, they are aware that Kelsier held Preservation for a time.

Quote

“The Survivor transcended death,” Marasi said, looking back, hand on the door, but not entering. “He survived even being killed, adopting the mantle of the Ascendant during the time between Preservation’s death and Vin’s Ascension.”

Rust … was she arguing theology with a demigod?

MeLaan, however, just cocked her head. “What, really?”

“Um … yes. Harmony wrote of it himself in the Words of Founding, MeLaan.”

 

[StanLemon]

 

1 hour ago, HSuperLee said:

We are told that it does in Shadows of Self I believe. It's in the bit where they talk about MeLaan having not read any of Sazed's books. It is in fact used as a defense for Survivorism. Frankly I've just always been confused, because I figure Sazed would have included Kelsier starting a religion specifically to start a revolution, and it seems like that would create some theological issues. Not that they're irreconcilable, I just want to know how they deal with the record basically being, "Oh yeah, your god made that stuff up about his own divinity."

Survivorists probably use his brief divinity to elevate him, showing that he is a good enough person to step down from divinity to allow someone else to follow in his footsteps or something. Really, I just want to know more about the religion in general.

I wonder if Sazed also put in the part that Kelsier never fully ascended to divinity. Because it wasn't so much that he was good enough to step down so much as he wasn't really holding onto it in the first place. Though I agree that Survivorists would try to spin it like you said.

But I'm more interested in how they reconcile him giving up his divinity and still considering him a god.

Edited December 11, 2019 by StanLemon

[HSuperLee he/him]

24 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

 

I wonder if Sazed also put in the part that Kelsier never fully ascended to divinity. Because it wasn't so much that he was good enough to step down so much as he wasn't really holding onto it in the first place. Though I agree that Survivorists would try to spin it like you said.

But I'm more interested in how they reconcile him giving up his divinity and still considering him a god.

Agreed on all accounts. I'm wondering if Sazed told them about Kel surviving the Catacendre or if he doesn't say what happened to him. If so, I could see the survivorists basically portraying him as a forerunner for various activities. Something like, "He survived the mists, and now he's claimed them for us. He survived the pits, so the Lord Mistborn survived the flames. Survived death, so Vin and Sazed became the Ascendants. Now he's surviving the Beyond, and one day we will too." Or something like that, I'm just coming up with this off the top of my head.

[Calderis he/him]

Kelsier was Preservation. He Ascended. His weakness with the shard was a result of his state as a Cognitive Shadow without a tie to the Physical Realm. 

He was holding the Shard in truth, and released it to give to Vin. 

Another quite, from VenDell in BoM.

Quote

“There are four individuals,” VenDell said, “who, to our knowledge, have held the power of Ascension. Rashek, the Survivor, the Ascendant Warrior, and Lord Harmony Himself.

 

Edited December 11, 2019 by Calderis

[RShara she/her]

1 hour ago, StanLemon said:

 

I wonder if Sazed also put in the part that Kelsier never fully ascended to divinity. Because it wasn't so much that he was good enough to step down so much as he wasn't really holding onto it in the first place. Though I agree that Survivorists would try to spin it like you said.

But I'm more interested in how they reconcile him giving up his divinity and still considering him a god.

He did fully Ascend. He couldn't do much with the power, but he held it. And he did give it up willingly.

Quote

Vin reached to the mists, and Kelsier felt the power within him tremble, eager. This was what they’d been meant for; this was their purpose. He felt Vin’s yearning, and felt her question. Where had she felt this power before?

Kelsier rammed himself against Ruin, the powers clashing, exposing his soul. His darkened, battered soul.

“The power came from the Well of Ascension, of course,” Kelsier said to Vin. “It’s the same power, after all. Solid in the metal you fed to Elend. Liquid in the pool you burned. And vapor in the air, confined to night. Hiding you. Protecting you . . .”

Kelsier took a deep breath. He felt Preservation’s energy being ripped from him. He felt Ruin’s fury pummeling him, flaying him,ravenous to destroy him. For one last moment he felt the world. The farthest ashfall, the people in the distant south, the curling winds and the life straining—struggling—to continue on this planet.

Then Kelsier did the most difficult thing he’d ever done.

“Giving you power!” he roared to Vin, letting go of Preservation’s essence so she could take it up.

 

[StanLemon]

5 hours ago, Calderis said:

Kelsier was Preservation. He Ascended. His weakness with the shard was a result of his state as a Cognitive Shadow without a tie to the Physical Realm. 

He was holding the Shard in truth, and released it to give to Vin. 

Another quite, from VenDell in BoM.

 

 

4 hours ago, RShara said:

He did fully Ascend. He couldn't do much with the power, but he held it. And he did give it up willingly.

 

Except the mists were still there. He held the power in a more full way than TLR but never fully held the Shard. 

[HSuperLee he/him]

27 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

 

Except the mists were still there. He held the power in a more full way than TLR but never fully held the Shard. 

He fully held the Shard, he just wasn't physically, cognitively, or spiritually compatible with it.

[Aon Tia she/her]

51 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

 

Except the mists were still there. He held the power in a more full way than TLR but never fully held the Shard. 

I think I agree, he held the shard fully but the shard and it’s power was diffused all over Scadrial in the form of mists and therefore he did not have access to the full power of the shard. 

[StanLemon]

59 minutes ago, HSuperLee said:

He fully held the Shard, he just wasn't physically, cognitively, or spiritually compatible with it.

His limits were most definitely more than he just wasn't compatible with it. For one he lacked a connection to the Physical Realm which Ruin straight up says in Secret History means that Kelsier wasn't fully holding Preservation's power, as is evident by the fact that the Mists were still separate from him. Also compare what Vin can do to what Kelsier could do. The best that Kelsier was able to do was occasionally communicate with people he was Connected to and distract Ruin momentarily by attacking him by surprise. Frankly, TLR had more access to the Shard when he was using the Well than Kelsier had when he was holding the Shard

[RShara she/her]

3 hours ago, StanLemon said:

 

Except the mists were still there. He held the power in a more full way than TLR but never fully held the Shard. 

Missing some of the power doesn't make him any less a Shard, though. Ruin was missing a chunk of his power for a while, and he was definitely a full Shard.

[Honorless he/him]

I think within Survivorism the belief was that Kelsier was God, while Sazed was the caretaker of the world.

[Calderis he/him]

1 hour ago, StanLemon said:

His limits were most definitely more than he just wasn't compatible with it.

Not according to Brandon. 

Quote

Questioner

You hinted I think-- it was talking about it that Kelsier had kind of Ascended?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. [...] Yes he did Ascend briefly. It was... It didn't work real well for him because Kelsier plus the power of Preservation is not a good match, but yes.

Shadows of Self Lansing signing (Oct. 13, 2015)

 

1 hour ago, StanLemon said:

For one he lacked a connection to the Physical Realm which Ruin straight up says in Secret History means that Kelsier wasn't fully holding Preservation's power, as is evident by the fact that the Mists were still separate from him.

That is not what Ruin says. 

Quote

The creature merely laughed louder. “You can barely control it,” Ruin said. “Even assuming it could harm me, you couldn’t accomplish such a task. Look at you, Kelsier! You haven’t form or shape. You’re not alive, you’re an idea. A memory of a man holding the power will never be as potent as a real one with ties to all three Realms.”

He specifically says Kelsier holds the shard, his state as a Cognitive shadow without a tie to the Physical Realm just makes him less potent in wielding that power. Which fully explains why the Mists, which are a Physical manifestation of Investiture are out of his reach. They were Connected to him, as the Vessel of Preservation, but he has no control over them. 

1 hour ago, StanLemon said:

Also compare what Vin can do to what Kelsier could do. The best that Kelsier was able to do was occasionally communicate with people he was Connected to and distract Ruin momentarily by attacking him by surprise.

He was able to do more than that.

Quote

Now, to be quiet. Kelsier let himself drift again, spread out. No longer did he try to stop Ruin’s influence. In withdrawing, he saw that he had been helping a tiny bit. He’d held back some earthquakes, slowed the flow of lava. An insignificant amount, but at least he’d done something.

Now he let it go and gave Ruin free rein. The end accelerated, twisting about the motions of one young woman, who arrived back in Luthadel at the advent of a storm.

His incompatibility with the power and his lack of Physical Aspect minimized what he was able to do, but the fact that he was able to oppose Ruin at all means he had to have held the Shard in truth. Most notably because this... 

1 hour ago, StanLemon said:

Frankly, TLR had more access to the Shard when he was using the Well than Kelsier had when he was holding the Shard

Is in no way the same situation. The Well was a finite amount of power designed to be used and expended. In some ways, yes, Rashek was more Powerful than Kelsier... But that was with a fully realized Physical aspect, unopposed by Ruin, and with a source of power that could be measured in seconds before it ran out.

Kelsier on the other hand, lacked that Physical tie, was directly opposed by Ruin, and despite everything that he did, the power cycled back to him because... He held the Shard as its Vessel.