The Delver Corpse Wasn’t a Corpse (Theory)

[+ILuvHats he/him]

The Superiority believes the training ground was designed by humans to train to fight Delvers, while Spensa thinks it’s a Delver corpse. I think they’re both wrong. I think it was a half constructed Delver. 

Thats right, I think the humans not only meant to use the Delvers in the war, but also expected to be able to since they had designed them in the first place. The humans clearly had the technology to build Dyson spheres, and while Delvers appear to be the size of a planet, they are in actuality much smaller. It’s not too much of a stretch to imagine that humankind had the capability to build at least a few, though I don’t think they built all of the thousands that appear to currently exist. And if the Delvers were created, then what else could they be except AI?

Think about it. The ban against AI always sticks out as the odd rule compared to limiting cytonics and wireless communication. Of course their use would be banned after humanity’s own creations turned against them. The question then is why and how the Delvers went rogue and came to hate life in the first place. Or rather, forgot that all these insects squirming around them are in fact intelligent life.

Here’s a crash course on AIs. There are three types:

1. Artificial Narrow Intelligence (ANI) - These already exist all around us, from our laptops to our phones. They are a basic stream of intelligence designed to perform a small set of tasks extremely efficiently. 

2. Artificial General Intelligence (AGI) - A general purpose intelligence that can perform a wide variety of tasks as well as improve itself. It’s comparable in intelligence to the human brain. M-bot is an example of this.

3. Artificial Super Intelligence (ASI) - An intelligence far beyond a humans, capable of comprehending abstractions impossible for the human mind to think of. This is what I think Delvers are. And if you want evidence, think of how Spensa describes the Delvers as almost completely alien to her, of shapes and ideas she can’t even wrap her head around. To me, that sounds suspiciously like the descriptions of ASIs I found. 

The development of ASIs is a very real concern in today’s world, since it will likely herald the singularity, which is a point in the future after which life will be so different as to be incomprehensible to us. In fact, experts on artificial intelligence place conservative predictions for the arrival of ASIs as a few centuries, while optimistic predictions place them arriving within some of our lifetimes. We’re talking about something that could change everything, for better or for worse. And they could be coming relatively soon because the growth in AI is exponential. The gap in time between the development of an AGI and an ASI is projected to be only a few years because by that point, AIs will be developing in intelligence at insane speeds. So, M-bot’s existence proves that ANIs were certainly within the human’s tech level at some point.

But why do the Delvers hate intelligence life? How did they forget that these creatures all around them are in fact intelligent in the first place? Wouldn’t the humans have programmed them with that knowledge as well as safeguards to obey their creators? I have two theories.

1. During the process of improving themselves and catapulting from AGIs to ASIs, the Delvers minds were expanded to the point that all preprogrammed data became insignificant to them and was lost in the vast influx of new information. Essentially, they forgot. The data could have been recalled at any time, but the Delvers never thought to as it was simply a single grain in an ocean of sand.

2. The Delvers interpreted an order from the humans to involve deleting information about all intelligence life, or at least some vital information about them that led to eventually removing the rest. 

I think these two ideas or possibly some combination of them are valid explanations for how the Delvers came to be as they are. And, when the first one was created (or at least the first one went rogue), they found themself alone in a vast void, surrounded by insignificant insects. What could be their response to this loneliness except to reproduce? I don’t know if the humans had already created enough vessels to fill with AI or if the Delvers created more physical vessels for their offspring, but either way, a new race was born. 

There are a few gaps in this theory. The main one is why do we find them filled with alien glyphs as opposed to some form of human language? Maybe the construction of the Delvers was headed by lesser AIs built by humans, and these AIs had already built a more efficient language for communication. Maybe the humans wanted to simply release the Delvers and pretend they hadn’t created them, so they made the Delvers seem alien so they couldn’t be traced. I don’t know, but it’s definitely a flaw in the theory. I also suspect that the Delvers (rather obviously) had something to do with all the missing cytonics. I’m at a loss for any ideas on specifics though. Anyways, I think this idea has merit, but feel free to tear it apart.

Edit: (sigh) Looks like the Starsight Release Party was updated on Aracanum this afternoon, and there goes my theory. It happens to the best of us. 

Quote

R'Shara

Are the delvers, are they new since Jason's time?

Brandon Sanderson

They existed, but Jason didn't know about them.

R'Shara

Ohh, because we couldn't find any trace of them...

Brandon Sanderson

There's no trace of them. They were basically added in when I was doing Skyward. It was my evolution of where I wanted to take the whole thing.

Starsight Release Party (Nov. 26, 2019)

 

Edited December 3, 2019 by Ooklidean Geometry

[RShara she/her]

Sorry! It's a great theory, though!

[Jofwu he/him]

I don't quite see how the whole theory breaks down.

You theorized they were of human origin, but they could have been created by some other race. Maybe you considered that fundamental to the theory, but I still think there's some good thoughts here regardless.

If they were created by another race, it would explain the strange script.

[Govir]

Sorry to hear about the WoB. I like this theory, specifically that the Delvers were created by someone and if that's true then they're most likely AI. A trope of AI is definitely them not understanding humans / human individuality, so I definitely see an extension of that evolving into the Delver point of view.

We also have the missing Kitsen Shadowwalkers. It's possible they are tied to the Delvers in some way, although the scale of the Delvers seems much too large for the Kitsen to have made them (not that they couldn't, but why would they make such big structures).

[+ILuvHats he/him]

1 hour ago, Jofwu said:

 

I don't quite see how the whole theory breaks down.

You theorized they were of human origin, but they could have been created by some other race. Maybe you considered that fundamental to the theory, but I still think there's some good thoughts here regardless.

If they were created by another race, it would explain the strange script.

 

That’s true I guess. I was assuming that the Delvers didn’t exist during Defending Elysium, and humans seemed like the best bet if that were true. If they were created by an older race, that would solve the problem.

[Jofwu he/him]

In my mind, there's a few moving parts here that all fit very nicely with this idea.

First, we have the fact that Brandon has rolled his unfinished story about the Fermi Paradox ("The Eyes") into the Skyward universe. The Fermi Paradox deals with the question of why we haven't found extraterrestrial life when it should be statistically very likely. Many of the proposed solutions to the paradox (e.g. "extraterrestrial life is exceedingly rare") are obviously incorrect in this universe. One common solution is that extraterrestrial life tends to wipe itself out. Another involves our inability to detect their communication for one reason or another. I think it's pretty clear that the delvers are Brandon's solution of choice, and they do both of these things. They are a threat to advanced civilizations (see humans) and they force civilizations to stay quiet (minimal cytonics and radio usage to avoid delver detection).

And then we have this ongoing emphasis that "AI are dangerous", which is something that's been mostly glossed over. Just a dozen reminders that it's dangerous for reasons nobody alive is able/willing to explain, along with some small level of exploration around M-Bot's own journey. I think M-Bot's existence in the story means artificial intelligence is a major thing Brandon intends to explore, and he definitely stepped that up in Starsight. In fact, I think M-Bot is going to be a major antagonist moving forward. His relationship with Spensa is broken, he's confused, and he's clearly pushed beyond the "safe" limits for AI according to his programming. I don't think he's going to be the villain of the story, but I do very much expect that things will get worse before they get better.

This ties everything together. Everyone thinks the AI are dangerous because that's how the delvers happened. They didn't show up in Defending Elysium because... maybe they were confined to some far corner of the galaxy at that point. Maybe they were just few in number at the time. Or maybe they hadn't gone rogue yet. Maybe they were created by a single race... Maybe they are some kind of "natural course of evolution" for artificial intelligence, and their existence is actually the result of many civilizations.

The other main theory I've seen about the delvers is that they are human cytonics who went too far or lost some parts of themselves. And I guess there's a default (and uninteresting) possibility that they simply... Are just beings that exist like any other, without any notable backstory. Personally, I think the idea that they are ASIs is more interesting and more in line with where the story is headed.

[RShara she/her]

 

30 minutes ago, Jofwu said:

One common solution is that extraterrestrial life tends to wipe itself out. Another involves our inability to detect their communication for one reason or another. I think it's pretty clear that the delvers are Brandon's solution of choice, and they do both of these things. They are a threat to advanced civilizations (see humans) and they force civilizations to stay quiet (minimal cytonics and radio usage to avoid delver detection).

 

This ties everything together. Everyone thinks the AI are dangerous because that's how the delvers happened. They didn't show up in Defending Elysium because... maybe they were confined to some far corner of the galaxy at that point. Maybe they were just few in number at the time. Or maybe they hadn't gone rogue yet. Maybe they were created by a single race... Maybe they are some kind of "natural course of evolution" for artificial intelligence, and their existence is actually the result of many civilizations.

 

I feel this treads far too close to the plot of Mass Effect 3 for my comfort.

Edited December 3, 2019 by RShara

[SzethIsBadAsHell he/him]

@Ooklidean Geometry funny thing is at the end of the book I thought the exact same thing . That the Delver were Ai. What led me to this was when M-bot entered the Dyson chamber in the epilogue he suddenly got smarter . Or brain began to function faster perhaps . Secondly the fear against the construction of Ai. This sounded like another Lie initiated by superiority similar to the propaganda about the Tanyx . 

           The only part of your theory I disagree with is when you said the Delvers hate cytonics and life forms . I could of swore Spensa realized at the end of the book that the Delvers did not hate us . They projected hate because humans entering the nowhere projected hate at them . So they were just mimicking the emotions they fealt. 

        I did not reread skyward . So I do not recognize the significance of R’shara WoB . Who was jason? And how does that disprove your theory ?

[+ILuvHats he/him]

31 minutes ago, SzethIsBadAsHell said:

The only part of your theory I disagree with is when you said the Delvers hate cytonics and life forms . I could of swore Spensa realized at the end of the book that the Delvers did not hate us . They projected hate because humans entering the nowhere projected hate at them . So they were just mimicking the emotions they fealt. 

Sure, but the Delvers still felt the hatred whether or not it was projected onto them or not. The feedback that Spensa received from the Delvers made it clear that they were disgusted by what they viewed as insects, and hated these lifeforms enough to want to eradicate them. I didn't really take into account the possibility that the Delver's emotions weren't self-determined since the end of Starsight confused me, and I wasn't a hundred percent sure how to interpret it. Either way, I don't think it really changes this theory much.

37 minutes ago, SzethIsBadAsHell said:

I did not reread skyward . So I do not recognize the significance of R’shara WoB . Who was jason? And how does that disprove your theory ?

Jason is from Defending Elysium, a short story written by Brandon some 10-15 years ago. It's set in the same universe as Skyward, but takes place in the past, before humans obtained FTL transportation and expanded beyond the solar system. However, they are in contact with the Superiority, though we aren't given it as a name and simply know that the aliens have built a galactic civilization. Jason is one of the first human cytonics, and we see him venture into the nowhere. However, he doesn't see anything there that could be described as delvers, and simply describes it as completely dark. I originally assumed that this meant Delvers didn't exist at this point. However, RShara's WoB proves that they did exist then, so the Delvers couldn't have been created by humans.

[Jofwu he/him]

21 hours ago, RShara said:

I feel this treads far too close to the plot of Mass Effect 3 for my comfort.

True.

But then Mass Effect isn't entirely original there either--just a very prominent and well-done take on the trope. If that's the way it goes, I think Brandon would differentiate himself well enough.

[RShara she/her]

47 minutes ago, Jofwu said:

well-done take

I disagree with this vehemently

[Use the Falchion]

On 12/3/2019 at 11:09 AM, RShara said:

 

 

I feel this treads far too close to the plot of Mass Effect 3 for my comfort.

I am Commander Spensa, and this is my favorite shop on Starsight!

Hyper advanced ship with a rogue A.I.? Ragtag crew of humans and other aliens? Specialist with a rare, dangerous ability that needs to be controlled? Has a personal (ish) connection to the eldritch abominations that are the antagonists? 

...these comparisons are making me like Starsight and other future books more than I already do!

[Aon Tia she/her]

On 12/4/2019 at 0:08 AM, Jofwu said:

I think M-Bot's existence in the story means artificial intelligence is a major thing Brandon intends to explore, and he definitely stepped that up in Starsight. In fact, I think M-Bot is going to be a major antagonist moving forward. His relationship with Spensa is broken, he's confused, and he's clearly pushed beyond the "safe" limits for AI according to his programming. I don't think he's going to be the villain of the story, but I do very much expect that things will get worse before they get better.

I agree with you here completely. I was planning on starting a theory about this but I could not have put it in a better way! I really think the whole conversation about “if an AI is able to fly around on his own and can replicate itself, would humans be scared of it”, “would Spensa be scared of M-bot?” felt very ominous. Also, the last thing he said to her is that I am upset, very upset, you had abandoned me! There relationship is on the verge of breaking here and I don’t think Spensa realises how serious the situation is! 
 

@Ooklidean Geometry I like the idea of Delvers being AI and some other extinct species might have created them or humans might have created them, that would certainly explain why AI is considered so dangerous. There is no indication of AI attracting Delvers attention otherwise so, there has to be some other reason. And yours seem to be as good as anything else we are likely to come up with. 
 

One more thing that I am concerned about is if this journey through the nowhere is going to effect M-bot in any way? Is it possible that when he reaches the nowhere, he will attract their attention in a rather bad way or he is going to come out much changed? already he could function more quickly merely in the presence of a nowhere portal, what will happen to his functioning capabilities if he were to enter the nowhere itself. Do you think he will grow ?