Calderis he/him Posted October 21, 2019 Posted October 21, 2019 4 minutes ago, Oltux72 said: Yes. However, the number of Bondsmiths is still very small. They can do this a few times on special occasions. In the big scheme Radiants are limited by the fuel they can practically carry. And by leakage of Stormlight. It barely lasts across a Weeping in the biggest gems. They cannot stockpile fuel. Do we have an idea how high the practile operating radius of a Windrunner is? It looks to me to be on the order of a thousand kilometers to me. That is, to cross major oceans, you need ships or elsecalling. I'm not arguing against that. I made that argument earlier in the thread. Using that ability, assuming three Bondsmiths, means overcharging three of your radiants and taking your Bondsmiths out of commission. Seems like a bad trade to me.
StanLemon Posted October 21, 2019 Posted October 21, 2019 40 minutes ago, Calderis said: They're two completely separate occasions. The "overcharge of Kaladin was long after the perpendicularity closed. Chapter 119 is very explicit that the reason for the overcharge is because the Three Realms become one and they can draw Stormlight directly from the Spiritual Realm. That only happens during a Perpendicularity or direct empowerment from a Shard based on what we know. There is nothing stopping the reason for Dalinar supercharging Kaladin being that he opened the Perpendicularity again and that frankly makes the most sense because Brandon basically contradicted himself in the WoB that it's a thing Bondsmith's can do. But for the sake of argument, let's say any Bondsmith can Supercharge a Radiant (the book clearly states Sphere recharging was new so I'm not giving that concession). As Oltux72 pointed out, there are only 3 Bondsmiths and it exhausted Dalinar to charge just Kaladin. That would mean 3 and only 3 Radiants at a time would become Supercharged. A pretty easy pattern to learn, I wonder how long it would take for TLR to us F-Steel to slaughter the 3 Bondsmiths.
StanLemon Posted October 21, 2019 Posted October 21, 2019 1 hour ago, Bigmikey357 said: The blocker still has to deal with the momentum of a 6 foot long sword being wielded by someone with at least the strength commonly attributed to pewterarms. A 6 foot long sword with almost no weight behind it, at that point it would be better for Radiant to just punch. 1 hour ago, Bigmikey357 said: we know that each step comes with a power boost, an increase in Stormlight usage efficiency and less Stormlight leakage Do we? We know they get an increase in how they can use their Surges and gain Shardblades and Plate but I don't recall anything that says or shows that they get a power boost, increase of Stormlight usage, or less Stormlight leakage.
Calderis he/him Posted October 21, 2019 Posted October 21, 2019 (edited) @StanLemon again, I'm not arguing against that. I've said from the beginning that TLR would win in his own. But the overcharge happen in Urithiru to charge Kaladin for his flight to retrieve Skar an Drehy. That's not until ch. 122. It is a separate event. This is not me taking sides in the argument of who wins, because as I told Oltux already, I made these same arguments on why this ability would be pointless earlier in the thread. But I'm also not going to let these arguments distort information that we have because that inevitably sorwad beyond this argument as well as being disingenuous. My take on this fight is and always has been, TLR wins on his own and every other factor for Scadrial is just more weight on the scales. Its exactly why my only contributions to the thread at this point are stepping in where I can see factual issues or were I can can provide information to try and clarify, like with plate vs pewter. Notice also, that that started with me pulling an in book quote on the number of mistings that, while higher than the numbers Pathfinder provided, are still much lower than the numbers I threw out. 11 minutes ago, StanLemon said: A 6 foot long sword with almost no weight behind it, at that point it would be better for Radiant to just punch. And this is inaccurate. Shardblades are light for their size. They're describe as surprisingly light by people who train with normal swords, but the first reaction of bridge four members when picking them up was how they were surprisingly heavy because of people always speaking of them as light. Zahel then explains what I just did. A shardblade is still going to have heft. Especially with 6 feet of fulcrum Edited October 21, 2019 by Calderis
StanLemon Posted October 21, 2019 Posted October 21, 2019 2 minutes ago, Calderis said: And this is inaccurate. Shardblades are light for their size. They're describe as surprisingly light by people who train with normal swords, but the first reaction of bridge four members when picking them up was how they were surprisingly heavy because of people always speaking of them as light. Zahel then explains what I just did. A shardblade is still going to have heft. Especially with 6 feet of fulcrum They are described as being almost weightless by people who train with swords and yes the Bridge crew was surprised that it had weight to it but it still wasn't described as heavy. But as swords aren't very useful against even light metal armor, a sword that ways less would be less effective and the size of it would even help disperse the impact if there isn't enough weight to it.
Gisaku75 Posted October 21, 2019 Posted October 21, 2019 9 minutes ago, Calderis said: Not really. There would definitely be effects when they transition between worlds but effectively on Roshar, for those who weight train or fight regularly, the upper bounds of what they lift are going to be essentially equivalent weights... They'll just be able to lift 30% more matter to make up the difference in the applied weight of gravity. The example I used was two full grown laborers, so not weak individuals, lifting a massive hammer together and having difficulty transporting it, and Dalinar grabbing it in one plated hand and easily lifting it to his shoulder. (which, grabbing a weighted weapon style hammer and lifting it in that manner is much much more difficult in itself than simply picking it straight up in the manner they were because of the shaft using the wrist as a fulcrum point) There would be a pretty major adjustment to the Rosharan troops in full gravity in the first couple weeks... And plate would probably negate that other than some minor coordination issues for the Radiants. Your premise is wrong. Throughout their lives, your Roshar workers raised 1/3 lighter weights than Scadrinal's workers. Same thing for the soldiers of the two factions those of Roshar have always worn lighter materials and made less effort. Those of Scadrinal is as if they had carried a weight of 20/30 kg on their shoulders for life. To adapt to an environment with greater gravity, the inhabitants of Scadrinal must have stronger bones and stronger muscles. It is not just a question of training but of genetics and evolution. To take an example, the Star Trek Vulcans are born on a planet with a gravity higher than Earth's and consequently they are 3 times stronger than humans. So a simple Scadrinal soldier could be 2 times stronger than one of Roshar and a Pewterman 4/6 times stronger. Enough to easily use Dalinar's hammer. In an environment with a gravity higher than that of Roshar and lower than that of Scadrinal the Shardwarriors would find themselves in difficulty against the simple Pewterman.
StanLemon Posted October 21, 2019 Posted October 21, 2019 @Calderis I understand your perspective on this thread, and book references go two ways. For me the book explains clear as day how the supercharge works when he opens the Perpendicularity. The simplest explanation for his supercharge of Kaladin is using the same mechanics as the Perpendicularity. Especially because the WoB on the matter is worthless. I don't view it as a distortion, just the most likely reasoning. I hadn't seen your reply to Oltux's comment before I posted, it must have happened while I was typing. That's why that was repeated. Frankly though I'm losing my ability to see any point of this thread. As you, me, RShara, and others have explained, TLR makes the whole war almost a certain victory for Scadrial based on the conditions given by the OP.
+Oltux72 he/him Posted October 21, 2019 Posted October 21, 2019 3 hours ago, Calderis said: My take on this fight is and always has been, TLR wins on his own and every other factor for Scadrial is just more weight on the scales. I am afraid I have to disagree. The reason is best eplained quoting Adolin: 'A Shardbearer cannot hold ground.' Of course TLR is not literally one of them. But he is stll one man. He cannot be everywhere. Thus I would say that this battle is far from certain. But the Rodharans have an advantage in leaderhip aerial combat logistic combat engineering These factors together should allow them to win after many years by attrition alone. They will burn fields and collapse mines until the Scadrians run out of supplies, mainly food and metals. 3 hours ago, Calderis said: A shardblade is still going to have heft. Especially with 6 feet of fulcrum It doesn't have them. You need to look at the center of mass. You'd better emulate Syl and go for a spear. It can be wielded better with two hands and be thrown.
StanLemon Posted October 21, 2019 Posted October 21, 2019 2 hours ago, Oltux72 said: Thus I would say that this battle is far from certain. But the Rodharans have an advantage in leaderhip Not quite sure about this, remember TLR had used his armies to conquer his entire world 2 hours ago, Oltux72 said: aerial combat True, but not too great for reasons I've pointed out 2 hours ago, Oltux72 said: logistic Yes, Soulcasting does have an edge. The downside is it uses their Stormlight reserves to do so, while canned food can just sit 2 hours ago, Oltux72 said: combat engineering Maybe, but I doubt it. Remember, this is Roshar 2,000 years before the books. Admittedly the Radiants had advantages the rest of Roshar lacked.
Bigmikey357 he/him Posted October 21, 2019 Posted October 21, 2019 Dalinar supercharged Kaladin as a 3 Oath Bondsmith. It tired him out. Dalinar still has 2 more Oaths to max out, plus it was his first time using the ability. Practice plus Level ups means this specific ability should be more effective with experienced, higher Oath Bondsmiths. How much more effective or what toll it will take on said Bondsmiths we don't yet know, but I don't expect the ability to truly tip the scales except in very specialized circumstances. @Calderis Explained about the Shardblade weight thing so I won't revisit that point. As far as level up increases for Radiants, study Kaladin and his Oath progression. The power of his surges increases. His Stormlight usage efficiency increases. He's able to heal faster. Look at the difference between when he fights Szeth the first time and the second time. Really it would make zero sense for them not to experience a stat increase across the board. They're soul merging with a literal force of nature. Anyway, I think we're all swimming in minor details so I wanna ask a question that someone posed a few pages back. I've seen the argument for those who favor Scadrians in the conflict based off of the strength of TLR. So what does a win look like for him? Do you think he has murdered the entire Rosharan forces in an afternoon worth of work and is settling the neutral planet? Does he go home, leaving a ragged planet in his wake? My bet is on the Radiants because I don't feel like Rashek alone can body several thousand knights on his own and I don't believe that any of his other troops would make any significant contribution to the battlefield against this opponent. If Roshar won, that means they found a way to kill TLR. They spread across the surface of the world, exterminating all Inquisitors with misting/Mistborn aid. Rosharan forces only have to eliminate TLR and the inquisitors to win; his rule garners no loyalty from his subjects. It's a simple premise but by no means an easy one.
Gisaku75 Posted October 22, 2019 Posted October 22, 2019 (edited) 20 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said: My bet is on the Radiants because I don't feel like Rashek alone can body several thousand knights on his own and I don't believe that any of his other troops would make any significant contribution to the battlefield against this opponent. If Roshar won, that means they found a way to kill TLR. They spread across the surface of the world, exterminating all Inquisitors with misting/Mistborn aid. Rosharan forces only have to eliminate TLR and the inquisitors to win; his rule garners no loyalty from his subjects. It's a simple premise but by no means an easy one. This is because you overestimate the Radiant and underestimate the TLR troops. First Not all radians have Shardplate. On coppermind it is specified that most of the Skybreakers never get it seeing that it requires to complete a mission that sometimes takes decades. Kaladin and Teft have had to suffer terribly to pronounce the 3rd oath, and the 4th is probably worse. And Shallan is gone mad to get his plate. If this applies to all orders, probably only 10/20% has a plate. the others has only the blade or nothing, and must use metal weapons and armor. Which makes them easy prey for Inquisitors, Mistborn, Hazekiller teams and Koloss. Second the Kolss are absolutely not stupid and slow beasts, they are living weapons created for the sole purpose of annhillating the opposing armies. During the siege of luthadel the "savage" Koloss were able to use simple and effective tactics. They uprooted trees to use them as rams and threw giant rocks with god precision against the besieged. A medium-sized Koloss is the equivalent of a mobile catapult that can cut a man in two with a single swing. And in Fardex most of the Koloss died because Elendel lost control and they started killing each other. TLR would certainly not suffer from this weakness. Indeed, given its millennial experience, under its control the Koloss could be very coordinated and use very complex attack strategy. third. The power of the Elsecaller is overrated. In the first book Jansnah, who pronounced the 4th oath, manages to soulcast the first bandit because it surprises him, the second because he stumbles and finally destroys his gem to kill the other 2 at a distance. Even destroying the stone at Kabbarath costs her a gem. Considering that Soulcast is based on convincing a creature to change I see it hard to use it on Koloss that are directly controlled by an almost divine will. In the first clash Scadrinal would lose tens of thousands of Koloss, but the Radants would lose the majority of their minor members and consume an enormous amount of stromlight. And this without TLR having done anything yet. Although I don't believe that Scadrial's victory is absolutely certain. For Roshar and the Radiant the war would be worse than a desolation. Edited October 22, 2019 by Gisaku75
Bigmikey357 he/him Posted October 22, 2019 Posted October 22, 2019 1 hour ago, Gisaku75 said: This is because you overestimate the Radiant and underestimate the TLR troops. First Not all radians have Shardplate. On coppermind it is specified that most of the Skybreakers never get it seeing that it requires to complete a mission that sometimes takes decades. Kaladin and Teft have had to suffer terribly to pronounce the 3rd oath, and the 4th is probably worse. And Shallan is gone mad to get his plate. If this applies to all orders, probably only 10/20% has a plate. the others has only the blade or nothing, and must use metal weapons and armor. Which makes them easy prey for Inquisitors, Mistborn, Hazekiller teams and Koloss. Second the Kolss are absolutely not stupid and slow beasts, they are living weapons created for the sole purpose of annhillating the opposing armies. During the siege of luthadel the "savage" Koloss were able to use simple and effective tactics. They uprooted trees to use them as rams and threw giant rocks with god precision against the besieged. A medium-sized Koloss is the equivalent of a mobile catapult that can cut a man in two with a single swing. And in Fardex most of the Koloss died because Elendel lost control and they started killing each other. TLR would certainly not suffer from this weakness. Indeed, given its millennial experience, under its control the Koloss could be very coordinated and use very complex attack strategy. third. The power of the Elsecaller is overrated. In the first book Jansnah, who pronounced the 4th oath, manages to soulcast the first bandit because it surprises him, the second because he stumbles and finally destroys his gem to kill the other 2 at a distance. Even destroying the stone at Kabbarath costs her a gem. Considering that Soulcast is based on convincing a creature to change I see it hard to use it on Koloss that are directly controlled by an almost divine will. In the first clash Scadrinal would lose tens of thousands of Koloss, but the Radants would lose the majority of their minor members and consume an enormous amount of stromlight. And this without TLR having done anything yet. Although I don't believe that Scadrial's victory is absolutely certain. For Roshar and the Radiant the war would be worse than a desolation. I was going by the parameters set forth by the OP. Radiants at the height of their powers with associated numbers. It may be hard to reach these oaths but it has obviously happened in the past despite the difficulty. According to the OP the Radiants receive Stormlight with the same frequency they had on Roshar. If they are husbanding their fuel reserves, which they know how to do, then they can make what Stormlight that's available to them last as long as it needs to. Of all the metalborn forces Koloss are the ones I'm least worried about. They are too easy to checkmate. I can think of at least 3 ways to incapacitate them without losing a Radiant. Even if they were Mensa candidates they have only strength. They have no defense against at least half of the surges that can be employed against them. To your point about the Elsecaller being overrated, I would caution you to take what we see Radiants doing now and taking that as the extent of their capabilities, as I've said before. I get it. The Era 1 book has been written. We know all about Scadrial and the wreckage they can inflict. We've seen TLR's power in action with the bands. We haven't seen anyone maxed out in Surgebinding in action. It's a matter of projection. I tend to project their power and effectiveness as quite high based on context clues. Opinions vary, and since we have not seen it in text opinions is all we got. But like I said in my previous post, these are details. I told you who I think wins this war, what they would have to do to achieve their victory and the immediate aftermath. What do you think?
Pathfinder Posted October 22, 2019 Posted October 22, 2019 On 10/19/2019 at 0:36 PM, StanLemon said: That was Vin, not exactly a standard Mistborn. Just like how Szeth won't be a standard Radiant. She still had access to the standard metals and when she fought the koloss, she only used the standard metals, with the occasional duralumin. On 10/19/2019 at 0:36 PM, StanLemon said: Because we don't know how much more resistant Radiant Shardplate will be we have to use Dead Shardplate as are basis. Besides, I don't it's much more resistant but more likely regenerates faster. If you do not know how a gun functions, using a bow and arrow as a base would result in skewed and inaccurate results. Radiant shardplate can be summoned and unsummoned, while dead shardplate has to be put on piece by piece. Radiant shardplate can have the wielder's surges used through, while dead shardplate can not. Radiant shardplate glows with the glyphs of the knight, while dead shardplate does not. We do not know if the strength is affected as well or not. So to treat radiant shardplate the same as dead shardplate for the purposes of defensive capabilities, is inaccurate. On 10/19/2019 at 0:36 PM, StanLemon said: Scadrial has canned food, much easier to supply food in that situation. Soulcasting produces food out of anything, and regrowth accelerates crop growth. On 10/19/2019 at 0:36 PM, StanLemon said: Carrying boulders would be fairly obviously seen from a distance, plus it would still use a quite a fair bit of Stormlight to carry said boulders. The reason that the trebuchets worked was because it was a surprise attack, Elend (who's grip on the Koloss can't compare to TLR) wasn't paying attention, and the Koloss had no one to turn their rage onto but themselves. Let's break that down, well it won't be a surprise attack because anyone who glances at the sky would be able to see the Radiants coming they glow after all. The Koloss only attack their own allies when not directed even when enraged. And you yourself said in your example that their would be regular soldiers mixed in so they would have an outlet for their rage. The attack comes during the day, with the sun at their backs. Tineyes of both allomantic and feruchemical will fry their eyes trying to look at the sun. The only stormlight required for the boulders is to negate its own weight, which means a lashing pointed upwards at half the weight of the boulder, making it weightless. Then the lashing can be ended when it is time to drop. On 10/19/2019 at 0:36 PM, StanLemon said: Show me the source on this, the only example of Division being used I can remember it was used via touch. This is now the third time. Amaram uses division with he fights Kaladin. He engulfs the air in flame. It is not soulcasting because everytime Jasnah used fire, she first soulcasted a sheet of oil, and then ignited it. The only other time she changed something to flame, was a person. Shortly after Amaram engulfed the air in flame, his foot steps left burn marks. That was division, at range. On 10/19/2019 at 0:36 PM, StanLemon said: By neutral planet it would be more likely it was a Cosmere standard planet, so likely one that would benefit Scadrians. Just because Rosharans would be used to a more hostile landscape doesn't mean they would be able to handle a less hostile one. Their entire way of life is set up for the Roshar environment, but not something that would be good in any kind of other environment. One of the pov chapters has a character describing how weird and unsettling the springy grass is in Shin. Also, let's say that the gravity and oxygen quality on the neutral planet is equivalent to Roshar, that would only be a boon for Scadrians and if the gravity and oxygen was Scadrian standard then Rosharans would have trouble with it. Remember, Scadrians during the Final Empire also are accustomed to hostile environments, just a different kind of hostile. The definition of neutral means "not helping or supporting either side of a conflict". If the planet benefited either side in a manner that the other side could not benefit from, then by definition the planet is not neutral. On 10/19/2019 at 0:36 PM, StanLemon said: There is also WoB saying metalborn are more common than people think and frankly the books back up Calderis's and Rshara's viewpoint more. The only reason the Misting numbers are so low is because a lot of them haven't snapped This is an argument I will not continue to have. I referenced plenty of WoB, and in book quotes. If that is not enough for you, then there is no point discussing it because we will just not agree on the numbers period. On 10/19/2019 at 0:36 PM, StanLemon said: Language is still an issue, as someone who has actually studied linguistics I can tell you that. Accents, slang, etc all have meaningful aspects and a Bondsmith has not been shown to be able to duplicate those. The issue with Lightweavers using illusions is that any Seeker will be able to spot them (e.g. an Inquisitor). I'm sure they would be able to do a fair bit of damage against normal ranks but if they are trying to sneak into higher ranked areas they would probably fail. Can you show me where in the books does it say the bondsmiths cannot duplicate that? Each time Dalinar had touched someone and spoke a language, they were surprised by his fluency. If there was an issue with accents, slang, etc, then they would not be able to use Dalinar to translate the dawnchant. He is a literal walking talking rosetta stone. On 10/19/2019 at 0:36 PM, StanLemon said: Wayne is a savant when it comes to accents and language. Very few people could pull off what he does. It's really not as easy as you think it is. Just because you can speak the language doesn't mean you can compensate for all the little things. I've known people who learned english as a second language and have been speaking it in the US for decades who still have a noticeable accent. There is nothing magical about what Wayne can do. Pattern can break codes, unlock locks, and perfectly mimic whatever someone says with tone and inflection. It occurs exactly that way in the book. We have a whole scene with Shallan with her learning accents over the course of her trip. And I am sorry, but if mundane spies on earth can do it without any magic, I do not see how with the aid of magic, it is impossible for Rosharans. It should be possible in both directions. Both Scadrians and Rosharans, without a lick of magic should be able to accomplish it. On 10/19/2019 at 0:36 PM, StanLemon said: Steel Inquisitors can make out the full features of what they see. Already brought up the steel dust. If that does not work for you, then I guess to each their own. On 10/19/2019 at 0:36 PM, StanLemon said: Only two things really give the Radiant a close range advantage, their healing and Shardblades. A third advantage is Plate if they have it. But they aren't stronger by any sense, frankly they are likely weaker. They live on a planet with less gravity so they would develop less muscle mass. Also the strength given from Stormlight has not been shown to be anything superior to Pewter whereas Pewter also gives perfect dexterity, agility, and balance which hasn't been shown to be the case with Stormlight. And they do not have a wider variety of abilities to draw on, the amount is actually fairly even. stormlight has been shown to increase speed, durability, and balance. Multiple times when Kaladin and Shallan have walked next to people without stormlight, the people have complained how it isn't fair how they do such things effortlessly. As I have shown above, division can be employed at range. Soulcasting can be employed at range. Cohesion can be done at range (the stoneward touched the foot of the mountain, and a ripple went up fully to the top, creating steps all the way up for him to climb). Illusions can be done at range. WoB say lightweavers can create lasers. Radiants have a whole plethora of things they can do at range. On 10/19/2019 at 0:36 PM, StanLemon said: Again as has been said, we have no evidence of that beyond Dalinar and the time he did that was something unusual as even Odium didn't think it was possible. In fact the wiki says that the Stormfather said that only Dalinar has ever accomplished that feat (I'll see if I can find the line in Oathbringer). So know the Bondsmiths can't do what you are saying. So you comment about the bondsmith ability multiple times. As I am trying to catch up with everyones post, I may end up repeating myself, or people may have already said what I am about to say. Dalinar augmented Shallan separately much earlier in the book. By the view of Navani, Dalinar created the pillar (uniting the realms), As to doing so without a perpendicularity, the book says it itself: Oathbringer page 1211 "Kaladin flew across the churning ocean. Dalinar had been able to summon the strength to overcharge him with stormlight, though it was obviously exhausting to do so." No mention of the perpendicularity. On 10/19/2019 at 0:36 PM, StanLemon said: This is because they use less Stormlight to make illusions than a Lashing does. We don't know the threshold the Screamers were focusing on. But as has been seen in the Mistborn books, even feint pulses can still be detected by Seekers Kaladin put a lashing on a pebble just enough to give it weightlessness and let it go, the screamers came right for that stone. The screamers detect conjoined fabrials for span reeds, which can be infused and left alone for extended periods of time for someone to respond. Shallan on the other hand could use as many illusions as she wanted, regardless the size, and not a screamer popped up. She used illusions on all of them. She created the illusion of "swift spren". She created illusions all over the place when she robbed the woman of food. And not once did a screamer come. On 10/19/2019 at 0:36 PM, StanLemon said: Yes, but they have better metals, they have canned food, they have siege weapons, etc. We aren't talking about guns we are talking about all the other advantages a civilization on the cusp of industrialization has. Roshar also has siege weaponry, It is mentioned multiple times in Oathbringer. On 10/19/2019 at 0:36 PM, StanLemon said: Which will show inconsistencies in illusions As I said, why can't a person just have an illusion over them changing skin tone and color of eyes? Rosharans aren't so utterly alien. Worldhoppers just get to be assumed are shin. epicanthic folds, light eyes, and skin tone can all be changed easily with illusions. On 10/19/2019 at 0:46 PM, Oltux72 said: As far as we know Division can not be used at range. Gave the example of division being used three times. On 10/19/2019 at 0:46 PM, Oltux72 said: They are not used to soil. Or dense forests. Or swamps. How would a neutral planet look like? Earth in the precambrian? Then both sides are likely to die from starvation before they find the other side. And the air would be barely or not at all breathable. Either you have Highstorms or not. If not, the planet won't look like Roshar. Dalinar when he went to the nightwatcher saw forests and swamps. When Dalinar was going to attack an enemy in a flashback he mentions amphibious assaults going through swamps, and then swimming through a lake to hit the enemy. Again the definition of neutral is it does not benefit either side. The minute it benefits either side, the planet is no longer neutral. On 10/19/2019 at 0:46 PM, Oltux72 said: Indeed the numbers conflict. I disagree. I think the book and WoB are explicit. But to each their own. On 10/19/2019 at 0:46 PM, Oltux72 said: You can disguise your features. What does that buy you? Do you want to impersonate somebody? Then a perfect mask will not solve your problems. Now Rosharans look differently from Scadrians. A personal disguise will solve that issue. But there is still language: Don't need to impersonate anyone. An army is large enough that not everyone will be always accounted for. Again, these things are accomplished on our planet all the time without magic. Why is it suddenly so impossible for the Rosharans? Shallan does exactly that in the novels. She lowers her voice, changes her eyes, puts on a hat, and has a satchel and says she is a messenger. Done. On 10/19/2019 at 0:46 PM, Oltux72 said: He is a Bondsmith. He cannot create illusions. At best he can teach languages. Do you know how hard it is to get rid of a foreign accent? It takes years of total immersion at a minimum. Granted, that is for human learners. Spren are better. Simply have the spren speak for you. Pattern would memorize it. Or pick a lightweaver with their mnemonic abilities, but a singer instead of an artist. They are renown for the arts that includes acting, singing, and etc. Just because Shallan's way of memorizing focuses on drawing, does not mean that is the only way the memorize. On 10/19/2019 at 0:46 PM, Oltux72 said: No. He can then repeat the phrases perfectly. Does he know how to form a plural? Does he know syntax? Declensions or conjugations? The layout of the city he was supposed to be stationed in? Vocabulary? How to eat like a Scadrian? How to bind his shoe laces? How to curse when he stubs his toes or drops his canteen? How to greet a superior officer? That would take years of study. With a tiny number of teachers. You are misunderstanding. For instance, have Dalinar say "I went through the bough though I could not stop to know how I would go." Then touch the captive, and repeat that sentence. Do that for multiple sentences that cover multiple tenses and inflections. The lightweaver with their mnemonic ability to memorize, or even just their spren to listen to the pattern, and you are set. On 10/19/2019 at 0:46 PM, Oltux72 said: There must be two kinds of lines. Otherwise every Coinshot or Lurcher would have steelsight. Hence you need to get the right kind of stuff into your illusions. While you have no way of looking at your own work. This will fail. We see repeatedly throughout the novels from multiple perspectives that the steel line and iron line are identical. On 10/19/2019 at 0:46 PM, Oltux72 said: No Tineyes, no Seekers, no Electrum. Fewer large cities to train in. No forests with immobile trees to train in. Their main weapon they train with is a huge sword. Spren blade changes form. Can be an ax. Can be a dagger. Can be a short sword. Can be a shield On 10/19/2019 at 0:46 PM, Oltux72 said: But they can put them in storage and they will be good for decades. Not so Stormlight. Except for a small number of perfect gems, they run dry after two weeks or so. As shown in the books, there are military rations. They know how to preserve soulcast food. The point that favors the Alethi is that they can make their food on the go, they do not have to carry large supplies with them, or have long wagon trains. The scadrians will have to carry all that canned food, and that food will run out, while rosharans can continue to produce and farm anywhere. No matter how inhospitable the landscape, regrowth will get you food growing. Scadrians cannot claim the same with their power sytem. On 10/19/2019 at 0:46 PM, Oltux72 said: There are three of them. And how long does a supercharge last? A week? The supercharge lasts as long as the radiants use the stormlight. It is not a continual effect. It is an area that everything that can hold stormlight is then filled with stormlight, and then the effect ends. So when running low, put all the gemstones, and radiants near a bondsmith (which near is a rather large area which I will point out later with the map of thaylenah), and everyone is filled up with stormlight. Then later do it again with another bondsmith so the first can rest even though the first could do it agian. Then later use the third. Then later do the first and so on. On 10/19/2019 at 0:46 PM, Oltux72 said: No. Fighting during the night. Literally. The period the sun is on the other side of a planet. Knights Radiant are radiant. Their bodies shine. Their armor shines. Their fuel shines. You are visible from far Not the lightweavers. When they use their illusions they do not glow. Shallan did so when she infiltrated the insane asylum On 10/19/2019 at 0:46 PM, Oltux72 said: You ruin the night vision of verybody on your side In Dalinar's vision, fighting back to back with two radiants, at night, there was no mention of seeing problems. On 10/19/2019 at 0:46 PM, Oltux72 said: Again, no equivalent of tin They have detection fabrials as shown with Rysn. On 10/19/2019 at 0:46 PM, Oltux72 said: No equivalent of bronze They have detection fabrials as shown with Rysn. On 10/19/2019 at 0:46 PM, Oltux72 said: Will they know the passwords? They have the cryptic spren that break codes all the time. They love them. On 10/19/2019 at 0:46 PM, Oltux72 said: All the other Knights will. And even an illusionist is not immune from a Tineye. Yes an illusionist is from a tineye. The tineye would probably be the easiest to fool. On 10/19/2019 at 0:46 PM, Oltux72 said: mass production superior metalurgy canned food Guns are far from their only technical edge. A million crossbow bolts. Ten thousand cross bows. All doable. Not so easy with Rosharan technology. Roshar has shown to have crossbows. They do not need canned food as they can produce and farm anywhere. On 10/19/2019 at 1:07 PM, StanLemon said: From Oathbringer chapter 119 As evidence here, only Dalinar has been able to recharge Sheres and supercharge Radiants. No other Bondsmith could do it before I disagree. On 10/19/2019 at 11:46 PM, Karger said: You don't need to look into the SR to use cohesion. I agree On 10/19/2019 at 11:46 PM, Karger said: Koloss sound pretty useless against shardblades. They are great for mobility and easy to supply but there effectiveness against trained soldiers has never been shown. I would hazard a guess that it is in fact quite limited since they rely so heavily on strength and lack any teamwork. I agree. On 10/20/2019 at 2:39 AM, Bigmikey357 said: Mass production requires infrastructure, meaning factories and the transportation to support that factory, the power to run that factory. That doesn't happen overnight or even in a year's time. I don't remember Era 1 having factories but they definitely won't have them on the neutral planet. Not unless TLR is building a city while he prepares for war. I agree On 10/20/2019 at 2:39 AM, Bigmikey357 said: For illusions all one needs is an edge. The Radiants have the best scouts ever. Between Windrunners flying from on high to invisible Spren, details of troop movements can be ascertained rather easily before any infiltration is attempted. Will the Lightweaver be able to sustain the ruse over a period of days or weeks? Of course not. Language acquisition is the least of the issues. But if you only want to do a smash and grab or an assasination then the disguise can hold out long enough for that. I'm about soulcasting metal stores or murdering metalborn in the night, not trying to listen in on their high Council. I'm hitting targets where I don't have have to speak much if at all. Sure the Scadrians can counter even this but it will take time to ramp up their security measures to deal with that specific threat. That's a point. A lightweaver could go in, and soulcast the metals to poisonous percentages, and then slip out. On 10/20/2019 at 3:18 PM, Oltux72 said: Opening open questions in serial. If you use Cohesion (or Soulcasting for that matter), how do your commands get to their target? And what does a coppercloud do to that transmission? Cohesion cannot be used on people (WoB). Cohesion works in a wave that ripples out (Dalinar's vision). Copper clouds have not prevented powers from being used, only prevented the tell tale rhythm of them being used. Copper clouds only prevent the burner from being effected by emotional allomancy (WoB). On 10/20/2019 at 3:18 PM, Oltux72 said: Officers in TLR's army will be noble, hence there will be a lot of allomancers among them. Inquisitors will have importance. They are allomancers. Again, we disagree on the numbers. I do not think there will be the number of metal born you posit. On 10/20/2019 at 3:18 PM, Oltux72 said: Arrow, crossbows, javelins, slings - preferrably with poisoned missiles? All of which Rosharans can do as well. On 10/20/2019 at 3:18 PM, Oltux72 said: By themselves yes. WIth allomantic officers the story may be different. Again disagree on the number of metalborn. On 10/20/2019 at 3:18 PM, Oltux72 said: It also gets you interchangeable parts. The only thing we saw was canning. There weren't factories with assembly lines anywhere. On 10/20/2019 at 3:18 PM, Oltux72 said: Yes. That comes with air superiority. The Scadrians will be forced to go to night operations. Detector fabrials that will warn when the enemy is approaching can be the Rosharan version of seekers and tineyes. Spren that do not need to sleep will as well. On 10/20/2019 at 3:18 PM, Oltux72 said: You cannot have a high rate of losses if this is to make sense. You cannot have a high rate of loss in any battle. On 10/20/2019 at 3:18 PM, Oltux72 said: Hence you build combat teams. That is already the Scadrian style. So too is Rosharan. We see as much in Dalinar's visions, both with the midnight essences, as well as when the thunderclast pops up. On 10/20/2019 at 3:18 PM, Oltux72 said: We are quite sure Pewterarms are stronger than mere Radiants. Against people in Plate the situation is unclear. We are? Please provide the WoB showing this. On 10/20/2019 at 3:18 PM, Oltux72 said: Yes. Marching over wet ground. That will be fun to a people only knowing wet rock. As I have mentioned earlier, there are mutliple biomes on roshar as well. On 10/20/2019 at 3:18 PM, Oltux72 said: For all we know Regals did it. They can definitly pool powers. Radiants can combine their different powers. It may require a Bondsmith. We know Bondsmiths can augment radiant powers in unique ways from order to order. On 10/20/2019 at 5:49 PM, Karger said: Not that many. Alomancy is fairly rare even among nobility and there are only 20 inquisitors or so. You only need to worry about inquisitors and seekers really and only if the seekers are actively burning and can detect Lightweaving(Lightweaving is actually quite quiet). I will add of the nobles we meet, none of them were mistborn except Shan. The entire trilogy only shows 6 mistborn, in the entire 100 million population. On 10/20/2019 at 5:49 PM, Karger said: Not true. Elend and Vin both say that they can't get the koloss to do much beyond go their and fight. Maybe you can micromanage with enough soothers but in that case you can just have ranged weapon people pick those guys off. True On 10/20/2019 at 5:49 PM, Karger said: If you have infrastructure. I agree. Not to mention I do not know why Roshar could not have an infrastructure as well. On 10/20/2019 at 5:49 PM, Karger said: But the Rosharans also have superior mobility in most cases. Airlifting Radiants FTW! Don't forget teleporting and transferring to the cognitive realm. On 10/20/2019 at 5:49 PM, Karger said: Lightweavers are pretty good at getting away. I agree On 10/20/2019 at 5:49 PM, Karger said: People in plate are stronger. I agree. On 10/20/2019 at 9:36 PM, Bigmikey357 said: A 2 Oath Kaladin with a little bit of of Stormlight did a dropkick and cracked dead Plate. How exactly is that not as strong as a Thug? And as far as Plate, Dalinar dug a 30 foot trench through solid Rock, wearing out a couple of warhammers while in dead Plate. He did this in an hour or 2. Plate is much stronger than a pewterarm. They're likely equivalent to a Mistborn or Inquisitor flaring pewter with duraluminum. I would say plate is even stronger. On 10/20/2019 at 9:36 PM, Bigmikey357 said: If the Lightweaver corrupts or eliminates metal stores then they cripple the Scadrians ability to make war. If a hit on a mine or metal store deprived half the metalborn troops of their metal or if she flummoxed the Atium cache then her getting away isn't required. I would gladly take that trade-off. And BTW what exactly is the counter for a Spren spying on the camp? A combat team won't detect them, there's nothing for a Tineye to sense, no metal for Steelsight to suss out. And if seekers can sense them, what are they going to do about it? I agree. Though she would not be able to alter atium. On 10/20/2019 at 9:36 PM, Bigmikey357 said: This specifically refers to Dalinar opening the Perpendicularly. All the Bondsmiths could supercharge per WoB. I agree On 10/20/2019 at 9:36 PM, Bigmikey357 said: Conversely, Roshar's winning strategy is to draw out the conflict and protect their Stormlight collection points. A vast majority of Scadrians cannot cope with the fortifications a sufficiently charged group of Radiants can put up in minutes or hours at most. And they can go places even TLR cannot follow. Their sappers have more mobility and can do more damage to targets a Scadrian needs to fight effectively. And if a Soulcaster figures out aluminum it can be as much a trump card for Roshar as Atium is for Scadrial. Wittle down their numbers, destroy their metals, play keep-away with TLR until the entire remaining force can focus on him. With elsecallers, lightweavers, willshapers, and stonewards, a fortification to rival anything seen could go up in a few hours. On 10/21/2019 at 0:04 AM, Calderis said: While looking for something else, I came across an actual in book number, from Khriss, that will put the argument to rest on rate of Allomancers. So 1 in a thousand is slightly off from 1 in two thousand. Thank you for posting that. Though this will work both for and against me, I feel compelled to point out that Khriss and the Ars Arcanum have been wrong before, and Sanderson has said the scientists in the novels can and will be wrong. On 10/21/2019 at 0:26 AM, StanLemon said: I never said they weren't as strong as a Thug, but they lack the other advantages of Pewter. They do not. They have increased speed, dexterity, endurance, and healing. On 10/21/2019 at 0:26 AM, StanLemon said: One, Atium is pure Investiture, it would be like trying to Soulcast a Shardblade. Two, that is an obscene amount of metal for them to get to, they wouldn't be able to sneak enough Soulcasters in to do the job. We've already told you how they can spot illusionists. WoB confirms it is possible to soulcast dead shardplate. It is also possible to soulcast atium. Both just require a lot of stormlight. More than is feasible. However as earlier discussed, a fabrial soulcaster can soulcast a full metal mind. The bands of mourning are not as invested as a shardblade. All stated and supported by WoB that I posted earlier in this thread. And we still disagree on spotting illusionists. On 10/21/2019 at 0:26 AM, StanLemon said: No it's not, at this point you are trying to make up advantages for Roshar. I just checked every related tag on the Arcanum I could think of and just reread the chapter. YOU ARE WRONG ABOUT THIS. The reason they were supercharged and recharged was explicitly because of the Perpendicularity. I disagree, and have referenced the book as well. On 10/21/2019 at 0:26 AM, StanLemon said: That would use up a lot of there Stormlight reserves and as I have told you and given an example as to it, BONDSMITHS CAN'T RECHARGE THEIR SPHERES. Do you have references showing how far the stormlight is used? On 10/21/2019 at 0:26 AM, StanLemon said: Did you really think Scadrial of all worlds wouldn't go on the full offensive? The Lord Ruler was a conqueror. The lord ruler would win the combat on his own. These were responses regarding other aspects. On 10/21/2019 at 0:26 AM, StanLemon said: You keep acting like Roshar would have all this Stormlight to be able to pull off every grand feat. Also, only two orders would be able to stay away from TLR's wrath. Stormlight efficiency increases the higher in oath you are. The perpendicularity did not function the way you argue. It was not a continuous effect. Dalinar reunited the realms. It took time for the realms to separate. The super charge was a separate event that occurred and then ended. The gemstones and radiants were charged, and then it stopped. As stormlight was used, it did not suddenly refill, yet the realms were still together. On 10/21/2019 at 0:26 AM, StanLemon said: Lastly, your aluminum thought isn't as great an advantage as you think. It's absolutely terrible to use as armor, weapons wouldn't be very good either. It admittedly would be protection from emotional Allomancy and probably decent as arrowheads but other than that, making a bunch of aluminum would be more a hindrance for Roshar. Aluminum would be a great armor for Scadrial because it's light weight and blocks Shardblades. it would be terrible armor for scadrial for the same reason it would be terrible for rosharans. A blade hitting a brittle metal is still a blade hitting a brittle metal. The aluminum will break.( WoB) On 10/21/2019 at 0:44 AM, StanLemon said: You're probably using this to justify that all Bondsmiths could do what Dalinar did But there is that very important bolded footnote there at the end. As I've just read the chapter where Dalinar does it, it is very clear that it is because of the Perpendicularity that they get access to all that Stormlight. Jasnah's perspective is pretty explicit that it's because the Three Realms are so close as to almost be one and that they can basically tap directly into the Spiritual Realm for power that they have all that Stormlight. And as others have said, books trump WoB and Stormfather explicitly states that recharging spheres has never happened before. My personal guess is that because Honor is dead, any Bondsmith could do what Dalinar did but it requires the Shard to not have a vessel and be "free flowing" so to speak. No mention of the spiritual realm. No mention of the effect persisting. No mention of continual stormlight renewal. On 10/21/2019 at 2:24 AM, Oltux72 said: Why then are spanreeds blocked by being in an aluminium cage? And why can you not lash through Plate? Span reeds are also detected by the screamers while illusions are not. You cannot lash through dead plate, or someone else's plate, but you can through your own radiant plate. On 10/21/2019 at 2:24 AM, Oltux72 said: They likely have as many seekers as the Radiants have Lightweavers. Now the Lightweavers can pick their targets. But for planning they need to know whether they can be detected. Very risky. Their utility is much diminished. I very much disagree due to the numbers I presented earlier. On 10/21/2019 at 2:24 AM, Oltux72 said: May I point out that neither of them had a few centuries of experience at directing them? So while the lord ruler is sped up and smashing radiants, he is also command the koloss? Could the zinc mental speed allow for that? Sure! But how would the koloss make sense of such accelerated commands? They are not up to that speed. it would be gibberish to them. On 10/21/2019 at 2:24 AM, Oltux72 said: No. You can still take parts of example one crossbow to repair others because they are standardized and measured. Where was the assembly line on Scadrial. Please reference the book. On 10/21/2019 at 2:24 AM, Oltux72 said: It depends on whether the Scadrians find a way to counter Cohesion. Unknown. And on the Rosharans finding the enemy bases. A planet is a big place. Cohesion can affect anything not living. On 10/21/2019 at 2:24 AM, Oltux72 said: If all goes well. The Rosharans are better under adverse conditions. And they are able to use infrastructure. Radiants navigate visually - on an alien planet, without maps Not purely visually as i mentioned with detector fabrials. On 10/21/2019 at 2:24 AM, Oltux72 said: If they were aircraft, we'd say they have leaky tanks. They can land and wait for a few days, but not weeks depends on the oath level of the radiant. On 10/21/2019 at 2:24 AM, Oltux72 said: Coinshots can use prepositioned anchors. In that case navigation is provided for. those anchors can be grabbed, soulcasted, or just plain and simple destroyed with division. On 10/21/2019 at 2:24 AM, Oltux72 said: Conviniently Radiants glow and Coinshots can sense each other and the weapons of their oponents Not shardblades and shardplate. it is too invested. Remember, Wax could not detect the bands of mourning even flaring his metal. WoB say shardblades are more invested than the bands of mourning. On 10/21/2019 at 2:24 AM, Oltux72 said: At night or bad weather the Coinshots are ahead. not against radiants. On 10/21/2019 at 2:24 AM, Oltux72 said: If we are taking about taking a planet, he will need ships. That takes time. Who will win on the high seas depends on storage. If the Radiants can recharge spheres on a ship, they will win in a fleet engagement. If not, the Scadrians will win, due to superior technology and allomancy, whose fuel keeps indenfinitely. Roshar does not need naval ships as they can fly over the water. On 10/21/2019 at 2:24 AM, Oltux72 said: Another can of worms. Spren cannot wear a helmet. What will emotional allomancy do to them? They are too heavily invested to be affected. On 10/21/2019 at 2:33 AM, Calderis said: Bondsmiths cannot open perps. The stormlight power that WoB is referring to was a passing comment in one of the last chapters, and it targets a single person. If you mean the augmentation regarding Shallan, I am not sure we can say that will always only effect on a one to one ratio. It was only ever used one to one, but we know the stormlight charging is an area of effect. It filled a large area. Please check the map of Thaylenah. I tried to post it but I had some trouble. On 10/21/2019 at 2:33 AM, Calderis said: As to the perpendicularity, that's unique to Dalinar, or at least a Stormfather Bondsmith, as explained in the book. It's the combination of "His remnants, your soul, my will.” it's a result of the bond and Tanavast's shadow having been absorbed by the Stormfather, Connecting him to all of the Shard that was. I agree that the perp and the stormlight are separate effects. On 10/21/2019 at 2:33 AM, Calderis said: As to the pewter argument, we have this. A thug can have double strength normally, and triple when flaring. In tWoK, when Dalinar was digging the latrine trench, he easily with one hand lifts a shardbearers hammer which two laborers together can barely lift. Plate easily has the advantage here. I agree. On 10/21/2019 at 2:39 AM, Bigmikey357 said: Oh BTW, aluminum blocks a Shardblade from the soul severing function. The blocker still has to deal with the momentum of a 6 foot long sword being wielded by someone with at least the strength commonly attributed to pewterarms. I agree. On 10/21/2019 at 2:39 AM, Bigmikey357 said: And according to the starting conditions laid down by the OP, Radiants will have roughly the same amount of Stormlight available as they would on Roshar. Every surgebinder we've seen in this series has done incredible things, but it would be a fallacy to look at their current abilities as the baseline when one, we haven't seen what a Radiant can do when they're maxed out and two, we know that each step comes with a power boost, an increase in Stormlight usage efficiency and less Stormlight leakage. I agree. On 10/21/2019 at 2:39 AM, Bigmikey357 said: Sure you can't soulcast a godmetal directly but you can make it inaccessible. That's why I said flummox the Atium supply not destroy it. Easiest way, soulcast the area around it to stone. Of course that cache would likely be the most heavily guarded in the camp so it'd be a long shot at best but the possibility exists. But other metal supplies should be easier to get to, less heavily guarded initially and the route thoroughly scouted by undetectable Spren. And honestly we've never seen a maxed out Lightweaver so you don't know how much area their soulcasting can effect. Personally I think just soulcasting the mundane metal supplies to poisonous percentages would do a whole lot of damage. On 10/21/2019 at 2:39 AM, Bigmikey357 said: Advantages of pewter: Strength obviously, increased dexterity, balance and endurance. Advantages of Stormlight: increased strength, speed, autoheal, indestructible shardweapon. Pewter advantages are mitigated by Radiant ones. As far as Plate assumptions, we've seen it in action. For example, when Dalinar in dead Plate catches the decending claw of the Chasmfiend. A pewterarm isn't getting crushed by that multi-ton monster? A Mistborn with duraluminum + pewter is about the only thing keeping that guy from getting squished. I agree. On 10/21/2019 at 3:04 AM, StanLemon said: Yes you are, I already posted this WoB. The footnote there straight up says that Brandon mislead the person in that WoB making the whole WoB practically pointless. Also the book directly contradicts it which as we've established multiple times, books trump WoB so until Stormlight 4 explains more we have to go off of what the books says Thing is, it looks like we disagree what the book says. So like the metalborn number, it does not seem like this is something that we can come to a consensus on. On 10/21/2019 at 3:19 AM, Bigmikey357 said: @StanLemon I don't know how many times I have to say this. I am not saying that all Bondsmiths can open Perpendicularities. I'm saying that all Bondsmiths can supercharge Radiants. That quote from Calderis is a book quote, not a WoB. Please stop trying to put words in my mouth. BTW those two actions are not the same thing. With one, Dalinar serves as the fueling station (recharging spheres). With the other, he's temporarily increasing the storage capacity of the Radiant. Stanlemon is saying they are the same thing. That is the reason for the butting heads. At this point I do not see an accommodation occurring on this topic. On 10/21/2019 at 3:23 AM, StanLemon said: @Bigmikey357 The supercharging and recharging is BECAUSE of the Perpendicularity. I just read the chapter from the book today, it is VERY clear that the Perpendicularity is why he's able to do it. We disagree on that. On 10/21/2019 at 3:28 AM, Calderis said: They're two completely separate occasions. The "overcharge of Kaladin was long after the perpendicularity closed. I agree. On 10/21/2019 at 4:00 AM, Calderis said: Not really. There would definitely be effects when they transition between worlds but effectively on Roshar, for those who weight train or fight regularly, the upper bounds of what they lift are going to be essentially equivalent weights... They'll just be able to lift 30% more matter to make up the difference in the applied weight of gravity. The example I used was two full grown laborers, so not weak individuals, lifting a massive hammer together and having difficulty transporting it, and Dalinar grabbing it in one plated hand and easily lifting it to his shoulder. (which, grabbing a weighted weapon style hammer and lifting it in that manner is much much more difficult in itself than simply picking it straight up in the manner they were because of the shaft using the wrist as a fulcrum point) There would be a pretty major adjustment to the Rosharan troops in full gravity in the first couple weeks... And plate would probably negate that other than some minor coordination issues for the Radiants. I agree. On 10/21/2019 at 4:03 AM, Oltux72 said: Yes. However, the number of Bondsmiths is still very small. They can do this a few times on special occasions. In the big scheme Radiants are limited by the fuel they can practically carry. And by leakage of Stormlight. It barely lasts across a Weeping in the biggest gems. They cannot stockpile fuel. Do we have an idea how high the practile operating radius of a Windrunner is? It looks to me to be on the order of a thousand kilometers to me. That is, to cross major oceans, you need ships or elsecalling. Yes, lets speak of elsecalling. Teleporting a military force into an area unguarded, doing tons of damage, and teleporting out. On 10/21/2019 at 4:08 AM, Calderis said: I'm not arguing against that. I made that argument earlier in the thread. Using that ability, assuming three Bondsmiths, means overcharging three of your radiants and taking your Bondsmiths out of commission. Seems like a bad trade to me. The stormlight infusion filled out the entire market, coast, and low ward of Thaylenah. That is not just three radiants. On 10/21/2019 at 4:14 AM, StanLemon said: Chapter 119 is very explicit that the reason for the overcharge is because the Three Realms become one and they can draw Stormlight directly from the Spiritual Realm. That only happens during a Perpendicularity or direct empowerment from a Shard based on what we know. There is nothing stopping the reason for Dalinar supercharging Kaladin being that he opened the Perpendicularity again and that frankly makes the most sense because Brandon basically contradicted himself in the WoB that it's a thing Bondsmith's can do. I disagree. On 10/21/2019 at 4:14 AM, StanLemon said: But for the sake of argument, let's say any Bondsmith can Supercharge a Radiant (the book clearly states Sphere recharging was new so I'm not giving that concession). As Oltux72 pointed out, there are only 3 Bondsmiths and it exhausted Dalinar to charge just Kaladin. That would mean 3 and only 3 Radiants at a time would become Supercharged. A pretty easy pattern to learn, I wonder how long it would take for TLR to us F-Steel to slaughter the 3 Bondsmiths. The entire area, that was filled with gemstones from the reserve were charged. That was what the radiants were drawing upon later in the battle. Navani saw the gemstones get charged. On 10/21/2019 at 4:23 AM, StanLemon said: A 6 foot long sword with almost no weight behind it, at that point it would be better for Radiant to just punch. As probably mentioned later, the swords are still heavy (as mentioned by Moash), they are just lighter than one would expect for a sword that size. On 10/21/2019 at 4:23 AM, StanLemon said: Do we? We know they get an increase in how they can use their Surges and gain Shardblades and Plate but I don't recall anything that says or shows that they get a power boost, increase of Stormlight usage, or less Stormlight leakage. The frequency of surgebinding, and what Kaladin can accomplish with each subsequent oath shows a power boost and increase in stormlight usage. Kaladin is flying longer, on less than he did at the start of the series. On 10/21/2019 at 4:29 AM, Calderis said: But the overcharge happen in Urithiru to charge Kaladin for his flight to retrieve Skar an Drehy. That's not until ch. 122. It is a separate event. I agree. On 10/21/2019 at 4:29 AM, Calderis said: Its exactly why my only contributions to the thread at this point are stepping in where I can see factual issues or were I can can provide information to try and clarify, like with plate vs pewter. I agree, and have been attempting to do the same. On 10/21/2019 at 4:29 AM, Calderis said: Notice also, that that started with me pulling an in book quote on the number of mistings that, while higher than the numbers Pathfinder provided, are still much lower than the numbers I threw out. Which I do appreciate that. On 10/21/2019 at 4:29 AM, Calderis said: And this is inaccurate. Shardblades are light for their size. They're describe as surprisingly light by people who train with normal swords, but the first reaction of bridge four members when picking them up was how they were surprisingly heavy because of people always speaking of them as light. Zahel then explains what I just did. A shardblade is still going to have heft. Especially with 6 feet of fulcrum I agree. On 10/21/2019 at 4:36 AM, StanLemon said: They are described as being almost weightless by people who train with swords and yes the Bridge crew was surprised that it had weight to it but it still wasn't described as heavy. But as swords aren't very useful against even light metal armor, a sword that ways less would be less effective and the size of it would even help disperse the impact if there isn't enough weight to it. Even if the blade is as light as you claim, which I disagree, you still have the increased strength from plate behind it. On 10/21/2019 at 4:47 AM, StanLemon said: @Calderis I understand your perspective on this thread, and book references go two ways. For me the book explains clear as day how the supercharge works when he opens the Perpendicularity. The simplest explanation for his supercharge of Kaladin is using the same mechanics as the Perpendicularity. Especially because the WoB on the matter is worthless. I don't view it as a distortion, just the most likely reasoning. So Dalinar opened a perpendicularity and brought together the three realms again at Urithiru briefly for one person? 23 hours ago, StanLemon said: Not quite sure about this, remember TLR had used his armies to conquer his entire world True, but not too great for reasons I've pointed out Yes, Soulcasting does have an edge. The downside is it uses their Stormlight reserves to do so, while canned food can just sit Maybe, but I doubt it. Remember, this is Roshar 2,000 years before the books. Admittedly the Radiants had advantages the rest of Roshar lacked. Regrowth also accelerates growth of plants. Throw some seeds down. Grown them to full. Take the seeds, and do it again. Now you have full farm lands in a day. Harvest those crops, and then let it grow naturally from then on. 21 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said: Dalinar supercharged Kaladin as a 3 Oath Bondsmith. It tired him out. Dalinar still has 2 more Oaths to max out, plus it was his first time using the ability. Practice plus Level ups means this specific ability should be more effective with experienced, higher Oath Bondsmiths. How much more effective or what toll it will take on said Bondsmiths we don't yet know, but I don't expect the ability to truly tip the scales except in very specialized circumstances. I agree 21 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said: As far as level up increases for Radiants, study Kaladin and his Oath progression. The power of his surges increases. His Stormlight usage efficiency increases. He's able to heal faster. Look at the difference between when he fights Szeth the first time and the second time. Really it would make zero sense for them not to experience a stat increase across the board. They're soul merging with a literal force of nature. I agree. 1 hour ago, Gisaku75 said: This is because you overestimate the Radiant and underestimate the TLR troops. First Not all radians have Shardplate. On coppermind it is specified that most of the Skybreakers never get it seeing that it requires to complete a mission that sometimes takes decades. Kaladin and Teft have had to suffer terribly to pronounce the 3rd oath, and the 4th is probably worse. And Shallan is gone mad to get his plate. If this applies to all orders, probably only 10/20% has a plate. the others has only the blade or nothing, and must use metal weapons and armor. Which makes them easy prey for Inquisitors, Mistborn, Hazekiller teams and Koloss. As we see with the Lopen, the severity of Kaladin, Szeth, and Shallan is not indicative of all members of the orders. 1 hour ago, Gisaku75 said: Second the Kolss are absolutely not stupid and slow beasts, they are living weapons created for the sole purpose of annhillating the opposing armies. During the siege of luthadel the "savage" Koloss were able to use simple and effective tactics. They uprooted trees to use them as rams and threw giant rocks with god precision against the besieged. A medium-sized Koloss is the equivalent of a mobile catapult that can cut a man in two with a single swing. And in Fardex most of the Koloss died because Elendel lost control and they started killing each other. TLR would certainly not suffer from this weakness. Indeed, given its millennial experience, under its control the Koloss could be very coordinated and use very complex attack strategy. As you said. They used simple tactics. 1 hour ago, Gisaku75 said: third. The power of the Elsecaller is overrated. In the first book Jansnah, who pronounced the 4th oath, manages to soulcast the first bandit because it surprises him, the second because he stumbles and finally destroys his gem to kill the other 2 at a distance. Even destroying the stone at Kabbarath costs her a gem. Considering that Soulcast is based on convincing a creature to change I see it hard to use it on Koloss that are directly controlled by an almost divine will. As per WoB, jasnah did not need to destroy the gemstone. she did it for Shallan's benefit. A radiant soulcaster can do far more than a fabrial, also per WoB. Controlling a koloss does not mean infusing them with investiture, and does not convince themselves not to change. Finally as I said earlier, metalminds that are full can be soulcasted. spikes are invested less than metal minds. koloss and their spikes can be soulcasted. 1 hour ago, Gisaku75 said: In the first clash Scadrinal would lose tens of thousands of Koloss, but the Radants would lose the majority of their minor members and consume an enormous amount of stromlight. And this without TLR having done anything yet. Although I don't believe that Scadrial's victory is absolutely certain. For Roshar and the Radiant the war would be worse than a desolation. To me, with the lord ruler but no heralds, Scadrial wins. Without the lord ruler I believe Roshar wins as an aside, it is clear a lot of us disagree on a lot of fundamental pieces of information in various ways. not really sure how an accommodation can be reached. 1
Calderis he/him Posted October 22, 2019 Posted October 22, 2019 16 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: The stormlight infusion filled out the entire market, coast, and low ward of Thaylenah. That is not just three radiants. And again, that was not the ability that Bondsmiths have. That was Dalinar opening the perpendicularity. The "overcharge" exhausted Dalinar to charge only Kaladin. Beginning of chapter 122. Even if Dalinar gets better at that and it doesn't take such a toll, it is not going to be the Perp.
Pathfinder Posted October 22, 2019 Posted October 22, 2019 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Calderis said: And again, that was not the ability that Bondsmiths have. That was Dalinar opening the perpendicularity. The "overcharge" exhausted Dalinar to charge only Kaladin. Beginning of chapter 122. Even if Dalinar gets better at that and it doesn't take such a toll, it is not going to be the Perp. Ah, then we do not fully agree. I think that the perp brought the realms together, and enabled Kaladin and Co to transfer. The recharging of the stormlight, I think is something separate. But as said in my post, there seems to be a whole lot we all (as in everyone on the thread) fundamentally disagree on in various forms across the board. Edited October 22, 2019 by Pathfinder
Karger he/him Posted October 22, 2019 Posted October 22, 2019 On 10/21/2019 at 2:24 AM, Oltux72 said: Why then are spanreeds blocked by being in an aluminium cage? And why can you not lash through Plate? Spanreads also seem to work through the spiritual realm. Aluminum blocks all investature and investature interferes with investiture. On 10/21/2019 at 2:24 AM, Oltux72 said: They likely have as many seekers as the Radiants have Lightweavers. Now the Lightweavers can pick their targets. But for planning they need to know whether they can be detected. Very risky. Their utility is much diminished. Or they can just take one or two risks under controlled circumstances to determine the effectiveness of their powers. On 10/21/2019 at 2:24 AM, Oltux72 said: May I point out that neither of them had a few centuries of experience at directing them? May I point out that a god Ruin himself could not do better? On 10/21/2019 at 2:24 AM, Oltux72 said: No. You can still take parts of example one crossbow to repair others because they are standardized and measured. But you can't make new crossbows. On 10/21/2019 at 2:24 AM, Oltux72 said: Radiants navigate visually - on an alien planet, without maps If they were aircraft, we'd say they have leaky tanks. They can land and wait for a few days, but not weeks Coinshots can use prepositioned anchors. In that case navigation is provided for. Conviniently Radiants glow and Coinshots can sense each other and the weapons of their oponents Radiants have spren that can navigate for them. On 10/21/2019 at 2:24 AM, Oltux72 said: Neither gravitaion nor elsecalling They actually do have a method of physically getting to the CR. Also try chasing down 5 identical people at the same time.
Honorless he/him Posted October 23, 2019 Posted October 23, 2019 (edited) As Calderis said, this entire fight hinges on the foresight (or mood) of one figure, the Lord Ruler. If he decides to end the match, it will be ended. If he is assassinated somehow, then eventually Roshar would win. Not because of powers, but the simple fact of how new Knights Radiant are initiated. You can join them. Their ranks can be refilled. On the other hand, you have to be born a Mistborn, Misting or Feruchemist. Hemalurgy would definitely not solve that (unless full knowledge of it is disseminated, then RIP Roshar, there are new Radiants in the block). Plus, no supply lines necessary for the Rosharans due to Soulcasting. Many scenarios of this fight ignores various Realmatic rules however. Why are the spren off-world? Also, battle in the Cognitive Realm would go really badly for the Scadrians because Allomancy needs the Physical component of metal to function. Merging of the Three Realms isn't a Bondsmith power, it only happened because Honor was dead and The Stormfather was his Cognitive Shadow. Also, note that in this scenario Roshar has all its Surgebinders but Scadrial doesn't have all possible Mistings in the field (or Twinborns! but that's all right, the scenario is drawn from specific time periods in the books). Why are the Kandra, Koloss and Inquisitors fighting but not the Aimians?(then again, we know very little of how they fight, just that they did so in the Desolations) This fight is, thankfully, narratively unlikely to happen: Why would the spren want to participate? (they are fully sapient beings with their own fully developed society, not just minions or chibi personifications of their Radiants or dæmons), and in the future conflux novels Allomancy is going to decrease in power, as is Feruchemy. But never mind that, that's not the question. In conclusion, just take TLR out (you've already taken the Heralds out) and you'll get the curbstomp... or at least, the probability of a curbstomp increases significantly. Edited October 23, 2019 by Honorless
Gisaku75 Posted October 23, 2019 Posted October 23, 2019 20 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said: I was going by the parameters set forth by the OP. Radiants at the height of their powers with associated numbers. It may be hard to reach these oaths but it has obviously happened in the past despite the difficulty. According to the OP the Radiants receive Stormlight with the same frequency they had on Roshar. If they are husbanding their fuel reserves, which they know how to do, then they can make what Stormlight that's available to them last as long as it needs to. Of all the metalborn forces Koloss are the ones I'm least worried about. They are too easy to checkmate. I can think of at least 3 ways to incapacitate them without losing a Radiant. Even if they were Mensa candidates they have only strength. They have no defense against at least half of the surges that can be employed against them. To your point about the Elsecaller being overrated, I would caution you to take what we see Radiants doing now and taking that as the extent of their capabilities, as I've said before. I get it. The Era 1 book has been written. We know all about Scadrial and the wreckage they can inflict. We've seen TLR's power in action with the bands. We haven't seen anyone maxed out in Surgebinding in action. It's a matter of projection. I tend to project their power and effectiveness as quite high based on context clues. Opinions vary, and since we have not seen it in text opinions is all we got. But like I said in my previous post, these are details. I told you who I think wins this war, what they would have to do to achieve their victory and the immediate aftermath. What do you think? Honestly, if you assume that less than 10,000 Radiants can kill or trap 200,000 Koloss without suffering losses or running out of Stormlight this discussion makes no sense. All the powers of the Radiants depend on the stormlight and the amount that each Radiant can hold and carry is not unlimited, so whatever they do to the Koloss and other Allomancers will drastically decrease the amount of light. In my opinion, sacrificing all his Koloss TLR could kill more than half of the radiant and leave the others with a limited supply of light. In your opinion, the Radiant would not even suffer a loss so it makes no sense to discuss further. 1
Bigmikey357 he/him Posted October 23, 2019 Posted October 23, 2019 6 hours ago, Gisaku75 said: Honestly, if you assume that less than 10,000 Radiants can kill or trap 200,000 Koloss without suffering losses or running out of Stormlight this discussion makes no sense. All the powers of the Radiants depend on the stormlight and the amount that each Radiant can hold and carry is not unlimited, so whatever they do to the Koloss and other Allomancers will drastically decrease the amount of light. In my opinion, sacrificing all his Koloss TLR could kill more than half of the radiant and leave the others with a limited supply of light. In your opinion, the Radiant would not even suffer a loss so it makes no sense to discuss further. Why is it that you think the Koloss are so powerful? Against regular troops sure they'd slaughter but they cannot defend against people who can alter the very landscape. To me it's a trade off. Koloss are so devistating because they are strong and they come in waves of attacks. Weight of numbers plus freakish strength are their calling card. That's not going to work here. If they mass up that gives the Radiants a perfect opportunity to box them in with soulcast walls too high for them to jump or quicksand in a wide perimeter to bog them down. I'm not saying that it's not going to be expensive Stormlight-wise, but it's not going to take an entire force of Radiants to subdue the Koloss force this way. Give me 100 Radiants, maybe 20 or so maxed out, and they with their area effect magic they can do enough damage to subdue a force that won't exen be able to get in range to attack. And once they're boxed in they can be attacked from distance. The most effective way to use then against Radiants would be to separate them into multiple attack groups so that they're impossible to box in. But they lose some of their impact that way and unfortunately they aren't mixing in with regular troops well.
StanLemon Posted October 23, 2019 Posted October 23, 2019 (edited) @Bigmikey357 You keep making the assumption that the Radiants will have an infinite supply of Stormlight to do every little thing. In Oathbringer, 10 Radiants weren't enough to handle Amaram's troops and the Parshmen alone. Also, as I've said repeatedly, we haven't seen any case that they could do anything on the scale you keeps saying. To clarify, while they were able to distract the armies. It wasn't until Teft showed up with 2,000 Kholin soldiers, Rock killed Amaram, and Dalinar trapped the Nergaoul that the battle really turned around. Edited October 23, 2019 by StanLemon
Karger he/him Posted October 24, 2019 Posted October 24, 2019 2 hours ago, StanLemon said: You keep making the assumption that the Radiants will have an infinite supply of Stormlight to do every little thing. In Oathbringer, 10 Radiants weren't enough to handle Amaram's troops and the Parshmen alone. Also, as I've said repeatedly, we haven't seen any case that they could do anything on the scale you keeps saying. To clarify, while they were able to distract the armies. It wasn't until Teft showed up with 2,000 Kholin soldiers, Rock killed Amaram, and Dalinar trapped the Nergaoul that the battle really turned around. Considering we don't know much about what materials are available to either army I see no reason why the Radinats could not have a significant amount of Stormlight. I would also like to point out that the 7 Radiants(three of the 10 did nothing in the battle) were not fully realized. Most of them were at the third ideal. Finally there is Lanchester’s Law. Those Radiants were outnumbered by orders of magnitude and had several different objectives which meant they were split up and much easier to overwhelm. Dalinar says that an individual shardbearer with the element of surprise could break his entire army to the point where they would have to retreat(the Rift). Adolin and one freind during WoR kill a good couple hundred Parshendi and neither of them can surgebind. We have never seen a large number of Radiants go to war.
Bigmikey357 he/him Posted October 24, 2019 Posted October 24, 2019 @StanLemon Seven Radiants at Thaylen City were able to hold an army until reinforcements arrived. Adding to what @Kargersaid, none of the Radiant fighters are were maxed out at the time. Now we aren't talking about a limited number of Radiants but several thousand, not counting squires, at least 10% of them maxed out and 3 Bondsmiths instead of 1. The damage that many people can wreck on a landscape is immense. Unlimited Stormlight, no I don't think so. But they have enough people according to the OP to be able to rotate Radiants in and out of the fray or take a fuel point with them or both. Be honest, they know they can do very little without their fuel source; why would they not find strategies to preserve what they have or increase their efficiency? Now if I'd have said that one Radiant could enclose an army of Koloss single handedly then I could see your point. I'm not sure that even a Herald could do that and they had a constant supply of Investiture. But 50 of them? 100? Jasnah isn't maxed out and she repaired a rent in a 50 foot wall with a hand wave. Yes I know, Realms being close and all that, but I think she could have done that without the realms being close, it just would have taken more effort. In this discussion I have tried to do 2 things, to give the Scadrians their due concerning their power set and to attempt to accurately project the strengths, weaknesses and capabilities of a maxed out Radiant and what they can accomplish with the numbers laid out by the OP. The Radiants as we see them in the current storyline and all the armies of Roshar would get destroyed by the Scadrians even without TLR. But you can't look at what we see now as a baseline for what they are capable of or what they were before the Recreance. Just because I think that Roshar wins however does not mean that I'm not acknowledging the Scadrians and their prowess in battle, at least among the metalborn (Mistborn or higher). I never said Roshar wins easily, in fact it's the complete opposite. I feel I have bent over backwards to be fair to the Scadrians in regards to their capabilities. A fight between them would be hard, bloody and terrible. I think Roshar comes out on top, you believe that I have given Radiants too much credit. Fine, agree to disagree. As I was thinking about this question it came to me that the conflict can be defined by a theme. The power of individuals versus the power of a collective. Look at the power base of the two sides. Scadrian magic users are harnessing their own power to individual effect. I have this power and so I can perform this act. I cannot transfer this power to others and I can only affect my environment in a limited way and a limited range. Radiants are more group action and environmental effects. A single Radiant is a collective all by themselves because it's them and their Spren. They can act individually of course, but the greatest magical effects they can muster are environmental effects. I'm a Radiant of such and such order. I can make plants grow faster or build a wall or change an object's personal gravity depending on which Spren I'm bonded with. And the more buddies I have with me the wider my affect can become. I think I might be explaining it poorly, please give me some slack.
Pathfinder Posted October 24, 2019 Posted October 24, 2019 (edited) On 10/23/2019 at 8:46 AM, Gisaku75 said: Honestly, if you assume that less than 10,000 Radiants can kill or trap 200,000 Koloss without suffering losses or running out of Stormlight this discussion makes no sense. All the powers of the Radiants depend on the stormlight and the amount that each Radiant can hold and carry is not unlimited, so whatever they do to the Koloss and other Allomancers will drastically decrease the amount of light. In my opinion, sacrificing all his Koloss TLR could kill more than half of the radiant and leave the others with a limited supply of light. In your opinion, the Radiant would not even suffer a loss so it makes no sense to discuss further. 16 hours ago, StanLemon said: @Bigmikey357 You keep making the assumption that the Radiants will have an infinite supply of Stormlight to do every little thing. In Oathbringer, 10 Radiants weren't enough to handle Amaram's troops and the Parshmen alone. Also, as I've said repeatedly, we haven't seen any case that they could do anything on the scale you keeps saying. To clarify, while they were able to distract the armies. It wasn't until Teft showed up with 2,000 Kholin soldiers, Rock killed Amaram, and Dalinar trapped the Nergaoul that the battle really turned around. This is in response to the both of you regarding stormlight use. I am referencing a scene with Szeth in Way of Kings, page 715 because there are two instances where he is filled to the brim with stormlight and then lists a number of surgebindings. In addition in this scene Szeth is using an honorblade, which we know is less efficient at stormlight than a third oathed wind runner with the same abilities. I theorize Szeth is on his way to being a savant with the honorblade, but regardless we know it is still less efficient than a third oath windrunner. I will now list when Szeth draws stormlight, roughly based on description how much, and what he does with it. 1. Szeth having already killed two guards, he takes a deep breath from the pouch at his waist a. basic lashing of the table b full lashing on the floor c. full lashing table top d. lashed self to ceiling e. lashed self back to floor 2. new breath from pouch at his waist. stated he drew more than he ever had before till he is brimming a. lashed 24 men into the air b. lashed himself to the far wall c. lashed self downwards d. lashed dinner knife three times e. lashed self backwards f. lashed self upwards a quarter g. lashed unknown number of men h. lashed table with half basic lashing i. full lashing on table j. lashed self to celing k. lashed self down 3. drew some additional stormlight from the gemstones he brought (not a lot because he notes some are dun)(comments again he feels so full) a. lashed self behind shardbearer b. lashes large stone more than 15 times (nearly runs out of stormlight here) c. quarter lash 4. drew stormlight from spheres on the floor (does not note origin of spheres, so could be more of his original spheres that got cut by the shardblade, or could be general spheres) a. lashed self to far wall b. lashed self upwards c. lashed self back down d. lashed plank up with multiple lashings e. lashed self three times down f. lashed self towards king g. lashed downwards 5. drew more stormlight from spheres a. lashed self downwards twice. Then there is also this comment that I feel fits the Koloss in this scene: "A shardblade hissed through the air beside him, and Szeth exhaled lightly, Stormlight rising from his lips as he ducked out of the way. The two shardbearers attacked as bodies fell from above, but Szeth was too quick, too limber. The shardbearers didn’t work together. They were accustomed to dominating a battle field or dueling with a single enemy. Their powerful weapons made them sloppy." So the reason I list all of this is this is a honorblade user, who we know for a fact is less efficient than a third oathed windrunner with the same power set. That is how much he was able to accomplish on a single pouch of gemstones (confirmed up to number 4 as we do not know the origin of those spheres onwards). So I do not think the radiants would run out so quickly of stormlight. To refresh, this is what Szeth accomplished with one pouch of spheres 1. basic lashing of the table 2. full lashing on the floor 3. full lashing table top 4. lashed self to ceiling 5. lashed self back to floor 6. lashed 24 men into the air 7. lashed himself to the far wall 8. lashed self downwards 9. lashed dinner knife three times 10. lashed self backwards 11. lashed self upwards a quarter 12. lashed unknown number of men 13. lashed table with half basic lashing 14. full lashing on table 15. lashed self to celing 16. lashed self down 17. lashed self behind shardbearer 18. lashes large stone more than 15 times 19. quarter lash Edited October 24, 2019 by Pathfinder
StanLemon Posted October 24, 2019 Posted October 24, 2019 @Pathfinder and do we know how much Stormlight a Lashing takes? Certainly less than it takes to Soulcast. Also how long did each of those Lashings last? Seconds?
Pathfinder Posted October 24, 2019 Posted October 24, 2019 (edited) 6 minutes ago, StanLemon said: @Pathfinder and do we know how much Stormlight a Lashing takes? Certainly less than it takes to Soulcast. Also how long did each of those Lashings last? Seconds? I can pull up the quotes regarding Szeth and Kaladin where they lash themselves to fly to get an idea, though off the cuff it lasts far longer than seconds. Lashing seems to depend on three things: 1. type of lashing used (quarter lightens you, half makes you weightless, full changes direction of gravitational pull) 2. number of lashings 3. size of the target lashed. So if you use a full lashing, with multiple lashings, on a large target, it is going to take a lot of stormlight, and last a relatively short amount of time (as evidenced by the rock Szeth lashed more than 15 times, to crush the shardbearer. Keep in mind he did not mention the stormlight running out and the stone falling. It kept the shardbearer's dead body pinned.) Szeth used multiple lashes to change direction and strength repeatedly and showed no sign of slowing down, both in use, as well as stormlight increased speed and healing. Again this is from a user that is inefficient when compared to a 3rd oath windrunner. 4th and 5th oath radiants would be even more efficient. Feel free to refer to the scene. I mentioned the book, and page number in my prior post. I used that scene because Szeth was "filled to the brim". So the metric would be Szeth "filled" as in could take in no more stormlight, and he was drawing off a pouch of stormlight. Both things feasible for the radiants in our scenario. That they would draw in as much stormlight as they could, and they would carry a pouch of stormlight gems, like a misting or mistborn would carry a pouch of vials of metals. Edited October 24, 2019 by Pathfinder
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