Are Thunderclasts a product of Awakening?

[+Oltux72 he/him]

Now, at first glance the notion is preposterous. Yet

• a roughly humanoid figure is animated
• the equivalent of a Divine Breath is used (something must keep the Fused out of the Beyond)
• it moves
• it gains perception
• a spirit is inserted just as in case of the Returned

[RShara she/her]

I mean, I guess there are similarities. But it's more a similar effect with a different magic system, rather than actual Awakening. Just like Heralds are the Rosharan version of Returned.

I'm fond of the theory that the Fused find an old gemheart from a deceased greatshell under the crem somewhere, enter it, and possess it, and use it to form a body.

[GoWibble he/him]

My first glance says yes. The only other thing that I can think of is that they are the result of a Splinter inhabiting something. Other than that, you would probably get a RAFO

[Calderis he/him]

Similar outcome through different mechanics. 

For one things, thunderclast are uge stone beings... But they seem to move completely differently than awakening allows. Kalads phantoms had to have joints cut into the stone because awakening doesn't change the flexibility of an object. It can't make stone bend. 

The thunderclast are described as vaguely skeletal, but I find it hard to imagine that they're ripping out a perfectly molded pre-made skeleton with joints built into the frame everywhere.

Maybe there's some minor Cohesion use that allows them to bend and flex?

I see the similarities, but don't agree this would count as "awakening" 

[Quantus he/him]

26 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Similar outcome through different mechanics. 

For one things, thunderclast are uge stone beings... But they seem to move completely differently than awakening allows. Kalads phantoms had to have joints cut into the stone because awakening doesn't change the flexibility of an object. It can't make stone bend. 

The thunderclast are described as vaguely skeletal, but I find it hard to imagine that they're ripping out a perfectly molded pre-made skeleton with joints built into the frame everywhere.

Maybe there's some minor Cohesion use that allows them to bend and flex?

I see the similarities, but don't agree this would count as "awakening" 

Correct me if Im wrong, but isnt that mostly because the Phantoms were still just a Type II Lifeless with what amounts to Stone Armor attached to Awakened bone.  I guess what Im wondering is do we know that true Type IV Awakenings could not allow flexibility and/or independent motion to the level it usually does with organic awakening?

 

To the OP, Im in the boat that says they are almost certainly built on the same underlying realmic principles, but that awakening is not an actual, direct influence or inspiration the way Shardblades were the specific inspiration for Nightblood.    Though along the same lines, I have wondered if the Midnight Mother's Midnight Essence was some sort of Awakening Mimicry, basoned only on how they deflate to empty sacks of something silk-like when they are killed.  

[Calderis he/him]

9 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Correct me if Im wrong, but isnt that mostly because the Phantoms were still just a Type II Lifeless with what amounts to Stone Armor attached to Awakened bone.  I guess what Im wondering is do we know that true Type IV Awakenings could not allow flexibility and/or independent motion to the level it usually does with organic awakening?

Does Nightblood bend? 

[Quantus he/him]

58 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Does Nightblood bend? 

No, but as a Sword Nightblood was never intended to move, so that wouldnt have had any place in the Command images that Awakened him.  That leaves me still curious if Shashara's Type IV methods would have been able to make a purely stone or or metal golem, as opposed to Vasher's much cheaper method using organic bones under stone armor.    

[GoWibble he/him]

it would require many more Breaths

[Quantus he/him]

59 minutes ago, GoWibble said:

it would require many more Breaths

Absolutely, and prohibitively so if Vasher had tried to use Type IV to create the Phantoms the first time around (and arguably for relatively little gain over the Covered-Bone versions).   Im mostly just curious what you could pull off with a metal statue and a Type IV awakening.  The biggest difference is that they'd be actual sentient beings rather than the pseudo-doll that the lifeless generally become, which is the really cool part.    I guess Im curious if you could make a moving golem from a statue, or if you'd need to provide joints.  It didnt seem like they needed to include much in the way of joint mechanism when they made doll-shaped puppets, but the one I recall was small enough that even wood might flex naturally.  If you could awaken a wood statue and make it walk then I would assume you could make a stone statue walk, but I dont recall if we saw hard woods move under their own power or not.  

[Calderis he/him]

Everything we saw move was already flexible material. 

The Breaths just act as to create the motion. They don't alter the material. 

[Chiberty]

4 hours ago, Quantus said:

Im mostly just curious what you could pull off with a metal statue and a Type IV awakening.

Here's what I picture: a soulcaster changes something like a whitespine into iron. Someone Type IV awakens it with a command similar to Nightblood's. 

Joints are already included, it used to be alive, making it take less breaths to awaken, and Brandon lists Nightblood and whitspines as two of the most dangerous/nasty things in the cosmere.

Quote

Questioner

What’s the most dangerous non-Shard thing in the cosmere?

Brandon Sanderson

Nightblood’s up there, Hoid is up there, but not deadly dangerous, a different type of dangerous, yeah no, what we know of, right now, those, those are in the running. Chasmfiends, chasmfiends are pretty nasty. Whitespines are a little more nasty probably. The… the Unmade are pretty nasty. Yeah. There’s a couple of mercenary troops that you haven’t met yet that are really quite, quite dangerous, I would list them as well.

Figment chat (Jan. 19, 2015)

Perfect.

Edited October 11, 2019 by ChickenLiberty

[Calderis he/him]

@ChickenLiberty I mean, yes joints are included... But all of the soft tissue around the joints were also soulcast to iron which negates the joints...

That said, you should put your Ironspine on top of the Ironspine 

[Chiberty]

2 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I mean, yes joints are included... But all of the soft tissue around the joints were also soulcast to iron which negates the joints...

Shhhh.... We can't let my cognitive aspect realize that, or it won't work.

2 minutes ago, Calderis said:

That said, you should put your Ironspine on top of the Ironspine 

And give it a spine of iron for hemalurgy. (on other things of course, not itself)

Edited October 11, 2019 by ChickenLiberty

[Ixthos he/him]

With regards to the Phantoms, I think the real question is how did Vashar get the bones in the stone to begin with? Are the bones surrounded by the equivalent of a stone puzzle box, so that with the right movements and pushes on parts of the stone they could slid right off and expose the bones, or where the bones or stone commanded to become intangible, able to pass through one another?

 

On that note, if it was the latter, then it might be that Awakening doesn't just provide muscles to soft cloth when Awakening clothing, but can actively adjust the properties of what is Awakened - though it would be interesting if cloth could be commanded to become like armour, resisting blows. If it could though, surely Vashar would have given that command instead to what he is wearing, unless something restricted that.

 

I think for Thundersclasts they are actually made from several distinct pieces of rock which are all bound together as a single cognitive entity under the spren, and so the limbs slide past one another because they aren't one solid piece. The thunderclast was originally one solid stone to begin with, so when the spren produced it it had to seperate from its bedrock anyway, and so if it is already assumed that the spren can reshape the rock to separate part of it, it could also in theory make seperate pieces act as a solid whole. That said, I agree with the assessment that it is probably, almost certainly, based on the same principles as Awakening, but is not Awakening, any more than Allomantic pewter and stormlight strength are the same thing - they are similar principles, but different approaches, and provide different side effects (pewter's enhancement of all things physical, stormlight's accelerated healing).