Ethnicities of the Heralds

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

The Heralds are kind of wierd. Ash is dark skinned, as is Nale and Taln. But Kalak is more Alethi looking, it seems, and Ishar looks like a Shin. So what do you think the other Heralds look like? And is there a pattern to it?

[Quantus he/him]

The thing that gets me is that I cant figure out how the ethinicities settled out the way they did, specifically with Shin.  Shin is supposed to be the original home, the motherland, of the Humans on Roshar.  Given the diversity among the heralds, we can safely assume there was similar diversity among the immigrant generation of humans that all went to Shin at first, I would have expected shin to have a reasonable mix of the genetic ethnic mixures, or given their recent isolationism perhaps they'd be a homogenized version where the dominant traits had won out and smothered the more recessive ones.  But the modern Shin are more or less Caucasian, which is traditionally a large collection of mostly recessive traits.

[Elsecaller_17.5 he/him]

It’s important to remember that the births of the heralds are 10,000 some odd years from modern day Roshar. I wouldn’t classify them as any ethnicity. The only thing you can really say is Herald A looks vaguely like Ethnicity B.

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

4 minutes ago, Truthwatcher_17.5 said:

It’s important to remember that the births of the heralds are 10,000 some odd years from modern day Roshar. I wouldn’t classify them as any ethnicity. The only thing you can really say is Herald A looks vaguely like Ethnicity B.

Yeah, but that is kinda what I want to figure out. What they look like. 

[Truthless of Shinovar he/him]

Uhh, well one has dark skin with a pale birthmark in the shape of a crescent moon on his cheek, I think

I agree though, I do want to see what all of the heralds look like.

[Elwynn]

3 hours ago, Truthwatcher_17.5 said:

It’s important to remember that the births of the heralds are 10,000 some odd years from modern day Roshar. I wouldn’t classify them as any ethnicity. The only thing you can really say is Herald A looks vaguely like Ethnicity B.

 

The Heralds are super old but closer to about 5000 years old. The shattering took place about 10,000 years ago and BS has given cosmere timeline estimates as low as 6000 years since the shattering (though several more that seem to suggest he's settling around a 10,000 year arc). There are many quotes if you look through #chronology on Arcanum, but here's just one.

Quote

Questioner

How much time does the Cosmere take?

Brandon Sanderson

Roughly 10,000 years is where the timeline so far.

Questioner

Is that number significant at all? Or is it just...

Brandon Sanderson

No, roughly. It's just a time. It's rough. It's not even 10,000 years. It's round figures. We're going roughly 10,000.

Arcanum Unbounded release party (Nov. 22, 2016)

 

 

4 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

The Heralds are kind of wierd. Ash is dark skinned, as is Nale and Taln. But Kalak is more Alethi looking, it seems, and Ishar looks like a Shin. So what do you think the other Heralds look like? And is there a pattern to it?

Do you have the Oathbringer hardback? It's only four but they're very detailed in world depictions of Vedel, Ishar, Jez, and Ash. I believe they're accurate.

[Quantus he/him]

4 minutes ago, Elwynn said:

 

The Heralds are super old but closer to about 5000 years old. The shattering took place about 10,000 years ago and BS has given cosmere timeline estimates as low as 6000 years since the shattering (though several more that seem to suggest he's settling around a 10,000 year arc). There are many quotes if you look through #chronology on Arcanum, but here's just one.

That's fair, but the last Desolation was 4500 years prior to the start of the series, and the cycle had been going for a long while by then (often enough for basic technology to be completely lost to living memory), and they presumably had to have enough time on Ashyn post-shattering to get use of Surges and muck things up bad enough to flee the whole planet.   So if ~10,000 years agois the max by that reckoning of the Shattering of Adonalsium, I'd guess at somewhere more in the middle of the two points, so around 7500 B.S.A.

[Pathfinder]

17 minutes ago, Elwynn said:

Do you have the Oathbringer hardback? It's only four but they're very detailed in world depictions of Vedel, Ishar, Jez, and Ash. I believe they're accurate.

Those four are potentially not accurate. They are contemporary in world artists. So it is the equivalency of renditions of jesus, buddha, and so on. The artwork is going to be made in the view of the prevailing culture, which is why all appear primarily Alethi. There is a WoB on this. 

[Elwynn]

17 minutes ago, Quantus said:

That's fair, but the last Desolation was 4500 years prior to the start of the series, and the cycle had been going for a long while by then (often enough for basic technology to be completely lost to living memory), and they presumably had to have enough time on Ashyn post-shattering to get use of Surges and muck things up bad enough to flee the whole planet.   So if ~10,000 years agois the max by that reckoning of the Shattering of Adonalsium, I'd guess at somewhere more in the middle of the two points, so around 7500 B.S.A.

The cosmere timeline is completely wonky and much shorter than what the legends of Roshar would have you think. There was only one lifetime between the exodus from Ashynn and the heralds approaching Honor to form the Oathpact.

There is a ton of stuff that has to happen between those events: arrival and settlement, dissatisfaction with just Shinovar, skirmishes and then war break out, Odium approaches and gifts the Fused their ability, more fighting until humans realize what they're against and form the Oathpact...one lifetime. Then there are ~20-25 desolations in total with the last few occurring with the last few occurring in quick succession. I tend to think times got shorter and even desolation 15 or so only had a handful of years between them.

All that being said, yes, I think you're probably closer to the correct age, but I'm guessing that to be the upper bound. Hard to say really, there's so much we don't know.

 

13 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Those four are potentially not accurate. They are contemporary in world artists. So it is the equivalency of renditions of jesus, buddha, and so on. The artwork is going to be made in the view of the prevailing culture, which is why all appear primarily Alethi. There is a WoB on this. 

So you see those endpapers and go, "Yeah, Ishar and Shalash totally look Alethi." ??? Even their in book descriptions match closer to the endpapers than, "all appear primarily Alethi." We know Shalash has Shin eyes and Vedel doesn't appear to have epicanthic folds either. Ishar looks about as white as they come (So Shin or west coast Roshar).

You are correct that they're in world depictions, but they're more accurate than you seem to give credit. You can stick with your pessimism at their accuracy (I mean, you're not really wrong about them being depictions), but we have Shalash's and Jezrien's descriptions and the in world art seems quite the likeness. Saying they all appear Alethi is tantamount to wearing blinders and ignoring available info.

[Vindo]

I don't think any of the people's (heralds included) are meant to be 1 to 1 with any of the ethnicities on Earth. Rather they are a mash up of multiple ethnicities. Take the Alethi for example, while I envision them looking somewhat Polynesian (but with mixed traits from other ethnicities), their culture reminds me of medieval vikings or the Shin who look kinda of like Caucasians but I envision them with a Tibetan culture.

[Gilphon]

Weird thing about the endpaper: Jezrien is depicted as a Darkeyes. Which we know from Dalinar's visions is correct, but it seems like a very strange choice for an Alethi artist to make. 

[Inky]

14 hours ago, Elwynn said:

We know Shalash has Shin eyes and Vedel doesn't appear to have epicanthic folds either. Ishar looks about as white as they come (So Shin or west coast Roshar).

Looking closely at the image, she actually does, at least to me.

[Quantus he/him]

15 hours ago, Elwynn said:

The cosmere timeline is completely wonky and much shorter than what the legends of Roshar would have you think. There was only one lifetime between the exodus from Ashynn and the heralds approaching Honor to form the Oathpact.

There is a ton of stuff that has to happen between those events: arrival and settlement, dissatisfaction with just Shinovar, skirmishes and then war break out, Odium approaches and gifts the Fused their ability, more fighting until humans realize what they're against and form the Oathpact...one lifetime. Then there are ~20-25 desolations in total with the last few occurring with the last few occurring in quick succession. I tend to think times got shorter and even desolation 15 or so only had a handful of years between them.

All that being said, yes, I think you're probably closer to the correct age, but I'm guessing that to be the upper bound. Hard to say really, there's so much we don't know.

Agreed.  The two sides Im seeing are that even for Shards I expect that it would have taken a millennia or two post-shattering for Honor and Cultivation to settle on roshar and do whatever they did to Invest, co-opt and rework the ecology there.  And on the flip side I think that even with the massive disruption of a Desolation, it would take a century or two for all knowledge to regress all the way to the Stone Age (since basic copper and bronze knowledge is apparently commonly lost between the early/"normal" desolations.  But even with all that, a 5,000 year window is likely more than enough time for what we think happened, especially given how much happened in the generation of the Herald's first lifetime.  

[Pathfinder]

16 hours ago, Elwynn said:

So you see those endpapers and go, "Yeah, Ishar and Shalash totally look Alethi." ??? Even their in book descriptions match closer to the endpapers than, "all appear primarily Alethi." We know Shalash has Shin eyes and Vedel doesn't appear to have epicanthic folds either. Ishar looks about as white as they come (So Shin or west coast Roshar).

You are correct that they're in world depictions, but they're more accurate than you seem to give credit. You can stick with your pessimism at their accuracy (I mean, you're not really wrong about them being depictions), but we have Shalash's and Jezrien's descriptions and the in world art seems quite the likeness. Saying they all appear Alethi is tantamount to wearing blinders and ignoring available info.

So I have included all the WoB associated with the endpapers that I was referring to. Dalinar comments how in the visions Jezerien looks different than he expected. Amaram is surprised by Taln's appearance, and assumes his dark eyes is a disguise. Shallash is darker skinned than the end papers show. It is the in world artist's interpretation based on what the culture passed down. Brandon's inspiration is like the Sistine chapel. They are not accurate representations of the Heralds because the culture does not want imagery that contradicts their beliefs to be passed down. So Taln is a "light eyes". Shallash has lighter, more tan Alethi coloring, and so on. 

 

Questioner

I was wondering about the pictures in the cover of this [Oathbringer]. Are they specific characters in the book, or just art?

Brandon Sanderson

They are the Heralds. I went to some artists and said, "Do me your rendition of something that would be on the Sistine Chapel in-world for the Heralds," so that's four of the ten. So that is what we ended up with.

Idaho Falls signing (Dec. 29, 2018)

 

 

Questioner

Are these old Radiants?

Brandon Sanderson

Those are Heralds. That's Ash, who you'll see that the very end of this [Oathbringer]. That's Jezrien who's also near the end. You haven't met her [Vedel] yet. Ishar, you have heard about. And it's identified in this book who he is. But those are artist interpretations of them, in-world. They're like the Sistine Chapel versions of the Heralds. They might not look exactly like that, but that is an in-world interpretation of them by an artist.

Footnote: Question refers to the Oathbringer endpaper art
FanX 2018 (Sept. 8, 2018)

 

 

Blightsong

Who drew [the Oathbringer endpapers]? Are they in-world art?

Brandon Sanderson

These are in world paintings done by the Oilsworn, one of the people Shallan studied when practicing her art. The actual paintings were done by the Oilsworn's real-world counterpart, Dan Dos Santos, who did the cover of Warbreaker.

There are two more pieces in the back, done by someone else, which are also in-world art pieces. They're all part of a larger theme, and are equally gorgeous.

Phantine

I assume these are paintings of heralds, then?

Brandon Sanderson

These two [in the front of the book] are Ishar and Ash. The back two are Jezrien and Vedel.

ConvolutedBoy

Ash is so much more...shiny than I expected, but I guess that's Lightweaving for you. I love the space background too.

Brandon Sanderson

Remember, these are in-world artifacts. So this is how someone painted her from their imagination, based on lore. These are Rosharan versions of the paintings of the prophets along the top of the Sistine Chapel.

General Reddit 2017 (Oct. 20, 2017)

Edited September 11, 2019 by Pathfinder

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

Man, Brandon really loves the Sistine Chapel.

[Elwynn]

3 hours ago, Inky said:

Looking closely at the image, she actually does, at least to me.

Fair enough. I don't agree, mostly because of technicalities (amount of eye shadow covering the eyelid) that could just be liberties taken on the interpretation.

 

3 hours ago, Quantus said:

Agreed.  The two sides Im seeing are that even for Shards I expect that it would have taken a millennia or two post-shattering for Honor and Cultivation to settle on roshar and do whatever they did to Invest, co-opt and rework the ecology there.  And on the flip side I think that even with the massive disruption of a Desolation, it would take a century or two for all knowledge to regress all the way to the Stone Age (since basic copper and bronze knowledge is apparently commonly lost between the early/"normal" desolations.  But even with all that, a 5,000 year window is likely more than enough time for what we think happened, especially given how much happened in the generation of the Herald's first lifetime.  

Yeah, certainly more than enough time, which is why I lean toward younger (ha!) ages for the heralds. For the bolded part, are you saying you think desolations could have extended a century or two? That seems overly long to me. Nohadon's vision had 9 out of 10 people dead and the world destroyed in a decade, with Nohadon not even knowing anyone who could write anymore (and presumably read). Ten years would be the upper bound on desolation lengths to me. Roshar myths exaggerate so much but I envision much smaller timelines.

 

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

So I have included all the WoB associated with the endpapers that I was referring to.

I have no idea why you would quote so many wobs saying they're in world depictions. I agreed with that point in my post. What I was rebutting is your generalization that they "all look Alethi" which is clearly wrong, in-book or in the endpages.

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

Dalinar comments how in the visions Jezerien looks different than he expected.

Quote? I remember Amaram and Taln but don't recall where you're pulling this from. This is backwards to me anyways. Jezrien looks Alethi, which would fit with cultural assumptions of anyone not scholarly.

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

Amaram is surprised by Taln's appearance, and assumes his dark eyes is a disguise.

Taln isn't depicted in the endpages, but it makes sense that anyone would be surprised a herald is darkeyed (when not holding an honorblade).

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

Shallash is darker skinned than the end papers show.

Quote? I don't believe this at all. Shalash is dark skinned, just like the artwork, but someone like Taln is the full blown ebony Makabaki; the in book descriptions (which show how the artwork is far more accurate than you're giving credit) back this up. Besides, no one is claiming these are exact, but they're far more accurate than when you said:

18 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Those four are potentially not accurate. They are contemporary in world artists. So it is the equivalency of renditions of jesus, buddha, and so on. The artwork is going to be made in the view of the prevailing culture, which is why all appear primarily Alethi. There is a WoB on this. 

 

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

It is the in world artist's interpretation based on what the culture passed down.

This is confusing because the artwork ISN'T selective of a specific regional culture or race. No one would look at Shalash and Ishar and go, "totally the same nationality." The most important thing I'm trying to hammer on is: The artwork matches their in-book descriptions. Until that is refuted, the pictures can be considered somewhat accurate. Just not exact about specific details.

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

They are not accurate representations of the Heralds because the culture does not want imagery that contradicts their beliefs to be passed down. So Taln is a "light eyes". Shallash has lighter, more tan Alethi coloring, and so on. 

Taln isn't depicted in the endpages. The artwork DOES contradict Alethi culture, you're citing things about Shalash I don't recall.

Basically, they don't appear Alethi and I have no clue how you ever thought that. So they aren't represented by cultural washing like Jesus being white. I just don't see where you're coming from with any of your arguments.

 

Edited September 11, 2019 by Elwynn

[Pathfinder]

I am happy to answer all your questions and provide all the quotes and WoB below. I will go post by post to make sure I cover it all

 

19 minutes ago, Elwynn said:

I have no idea why you would quote so many wobs saying they're in world depictions. I agreed with that point in my post. What I was rebutting is your generalization that they "all look Alethi" which is clearly wrong, in-book or in the endpages.

Not clearly wrong. Further references below

19 minutes ago, Elwynn said:

Quote? I remember Amaram and Taln but don't recall where you're pulling this from. This is backwards to me anyways. Jezrien looks Alethi, which would fit with cultural assumptions of anyone not scholarly.

Oathbringer Page 436

The crowd had gathered around a man standing on a large boulder. Tall and confident, the man was in his thirties, and he wore white and blue. He had an Alethi feel to him, except… not quite. His skin was a shade darker, and something was faintly off about his features….

Storms, Dalinar thought, feeling a chill. This was Jezerezeh’Elin himself, Herald of Kings. The greatest among them. Wait. Did the king have dark eyes?

19 minutes ago, Elwynn said:

Taln isn't depicted in the endpages, but it makes sense that anyone would be surprised a herald is darkeyed (when not holding an honorblade).

Amaram would base his expectations on the herald's appearance on religious texts, and artworks such as the endpapers. That is why I referenced it. Here is the full scene with Amaram:

 

Words of Raidance Page 1061

“Please, Great Prince” Amaram said, getting the Herald to his feet with some difficult. The man was enormous, as tall as Amaram but built like a wall. The dark brown skin had surprised him the first time he’d seen the man – Amaram had, somewhat foolishly, expected that all of the Heralds would look Alethi. The Herald’s dark eyes were, of course, some kind of disguise.

19 minutes ago, Elwynn said:

Quote? I don't believe this at all. Shalash is dark skinned, just like the artwork, but someone like Taln is the full blown ebony Makabaki; the in book descriptions (which show how the artwork is far more accurate than you're giving credit) back this up. Besides, no one is claiming these are exact, but they're far more accurate than when you said:

So I have the quote from the book (referencing Baxil's Mistress), I have the WoB confirming Baxil's Mistress is Shallash, and I have the WoB where Brandon literally states how dark of a skin color Shallash is. 

 

Way of King's Page 707

Their mistress walked ahead of them, the only other person in the hallway. She wasn’t Emuli – she didn’t even seem Makabaki, though she had dark skin and long beautiful black hair. She had eyes like a Shin, but she was tall and lean, like an Alethi.

 

Questioner

About the woman that's in the interlude who's destroying paintings.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, Ash. Or Shalash, the Herald Shalash.

Questioner

Oh. I was just wondering who she was.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, the Herald Shalash. The daughter of Jezrien.

Arcanum Unbounded release party (Nov. 22, 2016)

 

Brandon Sanderson

Taln has what we'd call black skin pigmentation. So does Ash (the woman from the Baxil interlude.) Same for Sigzil.

Fun fact: in the original draft of The Way of Kings, Taln shared equal screen time with Kaladin. In the revised version, for a multitude of reasons, I moved Taln's story further back in the series. He'll eventually get a book of his own.

General Reddit 2016 (July 13, 2016)

19 minutes ago, Elwynn said:

This is confusing because the artwork ISN'T selective of a specific regional culture or race. No one would look at Shalash and Ishar and go, "totally the same nationality." The most important thing I'm trying to hammer on is: The artwork matches their in-book descriptions. Until that is refuted, the pictures can be considered somewhat accurate. Just not exact about specific details.

As per the quotes from the books as well as the WoB I posted above, it is refuted. 

19 minutes ago, Elwynn said:

Taln isn't depicted in the endpages. The artwork DOES contradict Alethi culture, you're citing things about Shalash I don't recall.

I have provided the references above.

19 minutes ago, Elwynn said:

Basically, they don't appear Alethi and I have no clue how you ever thought that. So they aren't represented by cultural washing like Jesus being white. I just don't see where you're coming from with any of your arguments.

I have shown you above why I think the way I do, and the confirmation of those thoughts. I believe I have covered all your questions. 

[Elwynn]

@Pathfinder  I tried quoting again but it's gets a bit confusing when previous quotes don't get carried over. So I'll try piecemeal.

This began in relation to the artwork.

28 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Oathbringer Page 436

The crowd had gathered around a man standing on a large boulder. Tall and confident, the man was in his thirties, and he wore white and blue. He had an Alethi feel to him, except… not quite. His skin was a shade darker, and something was faintly off about his features….

Storms, Dalinar thought, feeling a chill. This was Jezerezeh’Elin himself, Herald of Kings. The greatest among them. Wait. Did the king have dark eyes?

Jez looks Alethi in the artwork(the only one who looks Alethi). So the artwork is pretty accurate.

 

30 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Amaram would base his expectations on the herald's appearance on religious texts, and artworks such as the endpapers. That is why I referenced it. Here is the full scene with Amaram:

 

Words of Raidance Page 1061

“Please, Great Prince” Amaram said, getting the Herald to his feet with some difficult. The man was enormous, as tall as Amaram but built like a wall. The dark brown skin had surprised him the first time he’d seen the man – Amaram had, somewhat foolishly, expected that all of the Heralds would look Alethi. The Herald’s dark eyes were, of course, some kind of disguise.

This has no relation to the artwork. I already agreed that Amaram (or anyone) would be surprised at a herald having darkeyes, similar to Dalinar's response to Jez. This has nothing to do with the Art you claim all look Alethi. Alethi didn't even do the artwork.

Amaram has erroneous expectations of a herald's appearance. But the artwork doesn't. Shalash, Ishar, and Vedel do not look Alethi so how can you claim they're culturally washed out? They aren't even done by an Alethi artist. Well, Oilsworn isn't.

 

35 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Questioner

About the woman that's in the interlude who's destroying paintings.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, Ash. Or Shalash, the Herald Shalash.

Questioner

Oh. I was just wondering who she was.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, the Herald Shalash. The daughter of Jezrien.

Arcanum Unbounded release party (Nov. 22, 2016)

This says nothing about the discussion of the endpapers. I'm aware of who Shalash is.

 

36 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Brandon Sanderson

Taln has what we'd call black skin pigmentation. So does Ash (the woman from the Baxil interlude.) Same for Sigzil.

Fun fact: in the original draft of The Way of Kings, Taln shared equal screen time with Kaladin. In the revised version, for a multitude of reasons, I moved Taln's story further back in the series. He'll eventually get a book of his own.

General Reddit 2016 (July 13, 2016)

Again, this says nothing about the discussion of the artwork. It is stated many times Shalash and Taln are dark skinned, and Taln is the darker pigmented one. Shalash is dark skinned in the art, so it is somewhat accurate and not 'washed out' from Alethi expectations. Jez is depicted Alethi and looks nothing like Shalash.

 

37 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Quote

This is confusing because the artwork ISN'T selective of a specific regional culture or race. No one would look at Shalash and Ishar and go, "totally the same nationality." The most important thing I'm trying to hammer on is: The artwork matches their in-book descriptions. Until that is refuted, the pictures can be considered somewhat accurate. Just not exact about specific details.

As per the quotes from the books as well as the WoB I posted above, it is refuted.

You're not even attempting to address the artwork in relation to wobs and in-book descriptions. I don't know how you think any of those wobs refute anything. The artwork doesn't display all the heralds as Alethi, in fact is presents them as drastically different. Which is the opposite of you saying they all look Alethi in the art.

[Quantus he/him]

1 hour ago, Elwynn said:

Yeah, certainly more than enough time, which is why I lean toward younger (ha!) ages for the heralds. For the bolded part, are you saying you think desolations could have extended a century or two? That seems overly long to me. Nohadon's vision had 9 out of 10 people dead and the world destroyed in a decade, with Nohadon not even knowing anyone who could write anymore (and presumably read). Ten years would be the upper bound on desolation lengths to me. Roshar myths exaggerate so much but I envision much smaller timelines.

No, not that long for the actual Desolation, but the time between Desolations when the Heralds werent around to preserve knowledge and the survivors forgot so many truly basic things (like if you throw the green rocks in the campfire you can get metal). We know from Taln that the 4500 wasw by far the longest amount of time between them, but in the beginning before the Heralds started to fail and give in to the torture as soon as they were found and captured on Ashyn, I would imagine the last desolation would need to fall entirely out of living memory, otherwise there would still be survivors around to remember the herald's technological teachings first-hand.  I'd call it somewhere in the 50-100 year timeframe, depending on life expectancies.  

Edited September 11, 2019 by Quantus

[Pathfinder]

18 minutes ago, Elwynn said:

@Pathfinder  I tried quoting again but it's gets a bit confusing when previous quotes don't get carried over. So I'll try piecemeal.

This began in relation to the artwork.

Jez looks Alethi in the artwork(the only one who looks Alethi). So the artwork is pretty accurate.

 

This has no relation to the artwork. I already agreed that Amaram (or anyone) would be surprised at a herald having darkeyes, similar to Dalinar's response to Jez. This has nothing to do with the Art you claim all look Alethi. Alethi didn't even do the artwork.

Amaram has erroneous expectations of a herald's appearance. But the artwork doesn't. Shalash, Ishar, and Vedel do not look Alethi so how can you claim they're culturally washed out? They aren't even done by an Alethi artist. Well, Oilsworn isn't.

 

This says nothing about the discussion of the endpapers. I'm aware of who Shalash is.

 

Again, this says nothing about the discussion of the artwork. It is stated many times Shalash and Taln are dark skinned, and Taln is the darker pigmented one. Shalash is dark skinned in the art, so it is somewhat accurate and not 'washed out' from Alethi expectations. Jez is depicted Alethi and looks nothing like Shalash.

 

You're not even attempting to address the artwork in relation to wobs and in-book descriptions. I don't know how you think any of those wobs refute anything. The artwork doesn't display all the heralds as Alethi, in fact is presents them as drastically different. Which is the opposite of you saying they all look Alethi in the art.

I have sufficiently answered your questions in the prior post and provided the quotes and WoB as requested. if they are not the answers you were hoping for, that is your issue not mine. The end papers do not match the actual descriptions of the heralds. In world characters do not recognize the heralds based on in world descriptions till Jasnah got their actual descriptions. That is the extent of my comments, and the extent of which I wish to respond. 

Edited September 11, 2019 by Pathfinder

[Elwynn]

8 minutes ago, Quantus said:

No, not that long for the actual Desolation, but the time between Desolations when the Heralds werent around to preserve knowledge and the survivors forgot so many truly basic things (like if you throw the green rocks in the campfire you can get metal). We know from Taln that the 4500 wasw by far the longest amount of time between them, but in the beginning before the Heralds started to fail and give in to the torture as soon as they were found and captured on Ashyn, I would imagine the last desolation would need to fall entirely out of living memory, otherwise there would still be survivors around to remember the herald's technological teachings first-hand.  I'd call it somewhere in the 50-100 year timeframe, depending on life expectancies.  

I see what you mean. I always thought the loss of everything after a desolation was more related to the pure destruction of...well everything during a desolation. The more time between would just mean more time to rediscover. You're right though, and I think there might be a quote but I can't remember, that in the beginning the time between desolations was incredibly long. Heck, the starfalls vision was stated as, "Eight Epoch, 337" or something, so even by the eighth or ninth desolation there were several hundred years in beetween.

 

6 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

I have sufficiently answered your questions in the prior post and provided the quotes and WoB as requested.

I get that you obviously think you have. That's what has me baffled. Seriously, you were quoting stuff that didn't even remotely relate to the discussion. But even more, I get that you don't want to talk about it anymore. At least we agree the art is beautiful right?