Why are the Fused so indestructible?

[cometaryorbit]

According to the Stormfather in Oathbringer, even before the Fused got Surges, they were unbeatable because they just kept reincarnating, which necessitated the whole Oathpact thing - the Heralds had to go to Braize forever (which unfortunately turned into being tortured) to lock away the Fused, since they just couldn't kill them.

But the Fused are Cognitive Shadows, and we've seen plenty of Cognitive Shadows killed on other planets (Warbreaker/Arcanum Unbounded spoilers).

Spoiler

Shades get destroyed regularly on Threnody, and several Returned die in Warbreaker

And we know that Nightblood "destroys on all three Realms", and there's a WOB that a Shardblade could kill a spren. With the amount of power Honor could give the Heralds, why wasn't there a way to kill the Fused?

Hmmm... actually... is Nightblood the first thing Roshar's seen that actually can permanently kill them? Szeth might be even more important than we thought...

[+TheFoxQR]

Everyone becomes a Cognitive Shadow upon death. Usually, most just last for seconds or minutes before dissipating. However, Roshar is... unique. Its ecology was built to support spren - bits of investiture connected to fundamental physical forces that have gained sentience by human perception. These beings exist on two of the three realms - Cognitive and Spiritual, with a cursory presence in the Physical.

However, this ecology is also suited to sustaining Cognitive Shadows. Moreover the Fused were designed to have a specific kind of immortality - specifically one that allows them to come back again and again. This is the same form of immortality that the Heralds have. Both are cognitive shadows that get stapled to physical bodies by different means.

Also, the "Fusing" and dying over and over does seem to wear out the Fused spiritwebs slowly.

[RShara]

The Fused could also heal, like the Radiants can, which makes killing them much harder.

Warbreaker and SFS spoilers:

Spoiler

The Returned can't heal, and the Shades are just weird. Also, we don't see any of the Shades die, just be driven off.

A regular Shardblade would hurt them, but it seems like only a direct strike to the gemheart/Fused soul actually kills them, with a regular Shardblade. There's a theory that some of them are so crazy because they've been wounded by Shardblades so often that their spiritwebs are all messed up.

Also, an entire army of battle hardened, experienced soldiers that learn from every mistake isn't something to laugh off, either.

Edited July 20, 2019 by RShara

[cometaryorbit]

23 hours ago, TheFoxQR said:

Moreover the Fused were designed to have a specific kind of immortality - specifically one that allows them to come back again and again. This is the same form of immortality that the Heralds have. Both are cognitive shadows that get stapled to physical bodies by different means.

True - but it seems Odium's now discovered how to get around that, given Moash/Vyre killing Jezrien with some kind of soul-trapping blade.

So I guess the real question applies just as much to Odium's forces working against the Heralds. All 10 Heralds survived up to the time of Oathbringer, so it seems like nothing like that soul-trapping-knife was used in the ancient Desolations. It might just be "new technology", but I'd expect Odium, with a Shard's expanded mind, to have figured out the magic pretty thoroughly even back then.

23 hours ago, RShara said:

The Fused could also heal, like the Radiants can, which makes killing them much harder

True... I was more thinking about the possibility of either the Heralds going into Braize's Cognitive Realm to kill the Fused's shadows directly, between reincarnations, or Honor using his Shardic knowledge/expanded mind to develop a weapon specifically capable of killing or trapping the Cognitive Shadow (comparable to Nightblood or the knife used on Jezrien) while in a physical body.

23 hours ago, RShara said:

Also, an entire army of battle hardened, experienced soldiers that learn from every mistake isn't something to laugh off, either.

True. It would depend on how powerful the Heralds really were back then... Some WOBs say they got a direct feed of Investiture from Honor. But if they were operating on that sort of levels, how were they repeatedly captured and tortured? Maybe on Braize that power feed was much more limited, since Honor is Invested in Roshar instead? Something like that must have been happening, because (Mistborn spoilers)

Spoiler

I can't see someone operating on the level Vin is when she starts absorbing the mists (even just at the beginning, before she's picked up any significant portion of the Shard) being able to be physically captured and kept captured.

 

[Grytorm]

I think the Heralds usually returned semi-willingly to Braize as part of the Oathpact. Truthfully I think a boring but likely explanation for a lot of things we don't quite know about would be that in the earlier Desolations Honor was still alive and Odium was playing it safe. Things like the Everstorm and Vyre's Knife might have opened Odium up to retaliation. Either because they left him exposed or because a living Honor could declare those tactics to be cheating and thus allowing him to also screw around with the rules.

[Karger]

9 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

So I guess the real question applies just as much to Odium's forces working against the Heralds. All 10 Heralds survived up to the time of Oathbringer, so it seems like nothing like that soul-trapping-knife was used in the ancient Desolations. It might just be "new technology", but I'd expect Odium, with a Shard's expanded mind, to have figured out the magic pretty thoroughly even back then.

I think Moash had to be the one doing the killing.  Remember the fused did not dare do it themselves.

[+TheFoxQR]

19 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

True - but it seems Odium's now discovered how to get around that, given Moash/Vyre killing Jezrien with some kind of soul-trapping blade.

So I guess the real question applies just as much to Odium's forces working against the Heralds. All 10 Heralds survived up to the time of Oathbringer, so it seems like nothing like that soul-trapping-knife was used in the ancient Desolations. It might just be "new technology", but I'd expect Odium, with a Shard's expanded mind, to have figured out the magic pretty thoroughly even back then.

True... I was more thinking about the possibility of either the Heralds going into Braize's Cognitive Realm to kill the Fused's shadows directly, between reincarnations, or Honor using his Shardic knowledge/expanded mind to develop a weapon specifically capable of killing or trapping the Cognitive Shadow (comparable to Nightblood or the knife used on Jezrien) while in a physical body.

True. It would depend on how powerful the Heralds really were back then... Some WOBs say they got a direct feed of Investiture from Honor. But if they were operating on that sort of levels, how were they repeatedly captured and tortured? Maybe on Braize that power feed was much more limited, since Honor is Invested in Roshar instead? Something like that must have been happening, because (Mistborn spoilers)

  Reveal hidden contents

I can't see someone operating on the level Vin is when she starts absorbing the mists (even just at the beginning, before she's picked up any significant portion of the Shard) being able to be physically captured and kept captured.

 

One, you're assuming every Cognitive Shadow is of the Kelsier variety, and can be killed easily in the Cognitive. In truth, it might be a bit more complicated.

Two, as to why Honor didn't directly give them a weapon with that capability - he kinda did. Honorblades and Shardblades cut in the cognitive. Probably even spiritually, given that they seem to cut the soul. But also consider this question: How much should Honor directly help them? What if he gave every Human a Shardblade that channels all 10 surges? What happens when the Humans wipe out the Fused, and their next problem is... say disease. Should Honor also give them a panacea? What then? Should he directly solve their next problem? I feel like that is one of the questions being explored through the Cosmere; Sazed-Harmony also talks about this a bit.

And three, The Heralds were 10 people against an army and a Shard that has no compunction to play fair. You could even say their opponent had no Honor. That was part of the deal - they would be a stopgap vs the Fused. The fact that they were captured and tortured wasn't. That was all Odium. And they may have done well initially, but come on, after a while, the Fused had to have just understood them enough for it to not be a problem. And Talenelat held for 4000 years. That is a monumental achievement by any standard.

[cometaryorbit]

14 hours ago, Grytorm said:

I think the Heralds usually returned semi-willingly to Braize as part of the Oathpact.

To Braize, sure... I was speculating that their link to Honor was likely far weaker once they got to Braize. The Stormfather says they fought there as well, not just on Roshar:

(Oathbringer Chapter 38, "Broken People")

Quote

THEIR OATHPACT DELAYED THE FUSED FROM RETURNING IMMEDIATELY, BUT EACH TIME AFTER A DESOLATION, THE HERALDS RETURNED TO DAMNATION TO SEAL THE ENEMY AGAIN. TO HIDE, FIGHT, AND FINALLY WITHSTAND TOGETHER.

[...]

THERE WAS LESS THAN ONE YEAR BETWEEN THE LAST TWO. THE SOULS OF THE HERALDS HAD WORN THIN. THEY BROKE ALMOST AS SOON AS THEY WERE CAUGHT AND TORTURED IN DAMNATION.

The Stormfather also says the Fused didn't have Surges originally. So I think the Heralds must have been far weaker on Braize, as I really can't see Heralds with near-infinite Stormlight access and Honorblades being able to be defeated and captured, and kept captured, by any number of non-powered people.

My guess is that on Braize - Odium's planet - their direct Investiture draw from Honor was cut off or vastly weakened.

14 hours ago, Grytorm said:

Truthfully I think a boring but likely explanation for a lot of things we don't quite know about would be that in the earlier Desolations Honor was still alive and Odium was playing it safe.

That is a very good point.

 

1 hour ago, TheFoxQR said:

Two, as to why Honor didn't directly give them a weapon with that capability - he kinda did. Honorblades and Shardblades cut in the cognitive. Probably even spiritually, given that they seem to cut the soul.

But I don't think they can permanently kill the Fused (destroy the Cognitive Shadow), otherwise there wouldn't be any Fused left after so many Desolations. I think Shardblade-killing them must just separate the CogShadow from the body, not actually destroy it.

Quote

But also consider this question: How much should Honor directly help them?

Well, sure, in general I see that. It just seems a bit odd because at that point, it seems like the Heralds had to break their oaths or Rosharan humanity would have died off very shortly. It seems like that is a situation that Honor wouldn't want to let stand due to the very nature of his Intent.

1 hour ago, TheFoxQR said:

 That was part of the deal - they would be a stopgap vs the Fused. The fact that they were captured and tortured wasn't. That was all Odium.

Certainly, but it seems that the "stopgap" thing was only done because there wasn't a way to permanently kill the Fused.

[+TheFoxQR]

1 hour ago, cometaryorbit said:

It seems like that is a situation that Honor wouldn't want to let stand due to the very nature of his Intent.

Aha! Yes the situation was untenable. Honor I think didn't understand that for quite some time. Or maybe he did, and let it happen anyway.

There two interesting things I'm gonna point out to you that I think are relevant here: First is the Stormfather's perspective of the Heralds throughout the books. At first, he hates them for their cowardice because they broke their Oaths. The Recreance didn't help matters either. His paranoia goes far enough that he forbids spren he has any control or authority over from bonding new Radiants. However by the end of OB, his bond to Dalinar is beginning to help him understand the Heralds's sacrifice - that they knew what they were in for and went for it anyway. He respects and understands them a lot better for it.

The second thing is in one of Hoid's semi-lectures to Shallan. IIRC its in the Chapter titled Aim for the Sun, where Hoid tells Shallan about the two kinds of people in the world. The first I think is relevant here - to Hoid, the first kind of people stand against the boulder of time and end up getting crushed by it. I'm pretty sure he's referring to Honor - the idea that Honor knew what he was doing won't work long term and yet he did it obstinately and died for it. The Second is his allusion to Odium: this second kind of person looks at where the boulder rolls and takes credit for it. Odium repeatedly tells everyone he converts that he is the one that makes them do terrible things and its not their decisions and them that did it, but him. Only on further prodding by Shallan does he admit that there is a rare third kind: one that quietly watches and studies the boulder and makes small changes that cascade out long term. Sound like Cultivation?

Well the other two are nice and all but it's his rendering of Honor that's relevant to your post - Tanavast-Honor knew at some level that what he was doing was just gonna get him killed. Or maybe he had fallen prey to the fact that a Shard has more and more influence on their vessel over time, and was blinded by the raw intent of the Shard he held. Either way, tell me, does this answer your question?

Edited July 22, 2019 by TheFoxQR

[cometaryorbit]

On 7/22/2019 at 2:58 AM, TheFoxQR said:

Well the other two are nice and all but it's his rendering of Honor that's relevant to your post - Tanavast-Honor knew at some level that what he was doing was just gonna get him killed. Or maybe he had fallen prey to the fact that a Shard has more and more influence on their vessel over time, and was blinded by the raw intent of the Shard he held. Either way, tell me, does this answer your question?

As in, even though it had become unworkable, since the Oathpact had already been sworn, Honor's Intent forced him to leave it as is? That's quite possible.

[Frustration]

Perhaps we should consider what Odium said in oathbringer, saying he could take away a fused immortality, so this is something Odium can undo at will (maybe). The fused strike me as some kind of pseudo-shard. the only things that might be able to kill them and keep them dead are weapons that in my opinion could kill a shard(I could be wrong). The only things I can think of being Nightblood, Vyre's knife thing, and whatever killed Adolisium. If you can name something else please do.

[+TheFoxQR]

On 7/26/2019 at 1:42 AM, cometaryorbit said:

As in, even though it had become unworkable, since the Oathpact had already been sworn, Honor's Intent forced him to leave it as is? That's quite possible.

More along the lines of, what does it mean to be honorable?

It could be interpreted to mean that you abide by external rules, no matter what. Some of those rules are cultural, some you make by yourself. Once Honor made an Oath, it doesn't seem like the kind of intent to break it. And so, if Honor was, at that time, being heavily influenced by his intent, then yes. To him it would seem that abiding by his Oaths is the only path forward, regardless of circumstance.

Edited July 27, 2019 by TheFoxQR