Sel's Number

[lyht]

So it seems all the planets have a number of some importance. Scadrial's is 16, Roshar has 10, and Nalthis has 5. But I can't pin down a number for Sel.

 

Of course it is possible that Brandon had not started the whole number thing when he wrote those stories, or maybe all planets are not meant to have one, but let's assume they do.

 

The only number I can get for Sel is 3, because there are three view-points in Elantris, and there are three base elements of Aons: the coast, the mountain range, and the lake. But that feels very flimsy and doesn't seem to match up with the fact that most of the Aons are balanced with an even number of base elements.

 

Could there be other numbers that seem to be a theme of Sel?

[A Joe in the Bush]

Where did you get 5 For Nalthis? And Sel could be 3, But I don't think all the planets need a Number.

[GreyPilgrim he/him]

I've never seen Nalthis as five either, but I could be wrong of course. In terms of Sel, I also immediately thought of the Aon base lines as indicating the number. So 3 could be Sel's number.

In fact, 3 could make quite a bit of sense. The other confirmed numbers, 10 and 16 (I don't know about 5) are also of great significance to the cosmere as a whole. 16 Shards, 10 core Shardworlds. If 3 is a number, it could well correlate to the 3 Realms.

Is there anything in the systems seen in Emperor's Soul having to do with 3? I can't remember right now.

Edited May 20, 2014 by GreyPilgrim

[Quiver he/him]

Haven't read Elantris, so no thoughts there, but...

For Nalthis, I think lhyt is referring to the Five Scholars.

[GreyPilgrim he/him]

Ah yes, that would make sense. Thanks for that, Quiver.

[A Joe in the Bush]

Just because there were 5 Scholars doesn't mean that's the Number, after all, THere were 10 Highprinces and that's not the- Wow. Nevermind, just Ignore that last comment. I suppose all the Heightenings were at different Multiples of 5.

[lyht]

Yes, 5 Scholars. The 5 visions. And the multiples of the heightenings. (Thanks Joe, hadn't thought of that)

 

And reading the annotations, Brandon mentions that Pahn Kahl worship five gods.

 

If you’re curious, the Pahn Kahl are nature worshippers who focus on the storms of the Inner Sea as a manifestation of their unity of five gods. 

http://brandonsanderson.com/annotation-warbreaker-chapter-twenty-nine/ (expand the spoilers)

 

Not definitive, but fairly strong evidence... if the worlds all do have a number.

Edited May 21, 2014 by lyht

[lyht]

Is there anything in the systems seen in Emperor's Soul having to do with 3? I can't remember right now.

 

Not that I could think of... But I can't think of any number with any strength in either of the Sel books. Maybe I need to re-read.

[Swimmingly he/him]

Are there five Iridescent tones?

Also, the number of Breaths need for each Heightening are just rough estimates, because different Breaths have different strengths. So, 42 breaths with an average strength of 1.2 times the average breath strength on Nalthis might be enough for the first Heightening.

Edited May 21, 2014 by Swimmingly

[lyht]

Are there five Iridescent tones?

Also, the number of Breaths need for each Heightening are just rough estimates, because different Breaths have different strengths. So, 42 breaths with an average strength of 1.2 times the average breath strength on Nalthis might be enough for the first Heightening.

 

I can't find a number on the Iridescent Tones.

 

But you are right, the number of Breaths is an estimate.

[Aonar he/him]

Sel, (and Scadrial) should have two numbers, actually. The same way Roshar, if you look close, has three. 10, 11, and 14. 
 
This piece of WoB might be interesting:

THOUGHT
It seems that certain colors and numbers appear frequently in specific cosmere books, like the number 5 in Warbreaker or red and blue in Elantris. Do these colors or numbers happen to refer to a specific shard, and if so, would they be consistent across the cosmere?
BRANDON SANDERSON
Certain colors and numbers are important in reference to certain shards.

 

I'm not sure if 16 is Preservation's number, or if he just chose it because it's the total number of Shards. Devotion and Dominion should each have their own number though.

[lyht]

My mind is just a little bit blown.

[Swimmingly he/him]

This is totally off-topic, but lyht's profile pic looks really awesome.

Now, on topic:

I wonder if the colours and numbers are intrinsic to the Shard's nature, a conscious decision to stick to a certain theme by the Shareholder, a 'pollution' of the Shard by the Shareholder's Cognitive aspect that associates certain themes with the Intent, biasing the magic system and themes, a thematic decision by Brandon that will go unexplained, or something else?

[Aonar he/him]

I think the colours might be intrinsic to the Shards nature, but I'm not sure about the numbers. My own pet theory is based heavily on a WoB from a while back, which said:

ASKTHEPAPERCLIP
If Adonalsium were to shatter in a parallel universe, would it divide into the same 16 intents?
BRANDON SANDERSON
Um...it...Adonalsium could have been shattered in other ways.
ASKTHEPAPERCLIP
Was there a force determining which way it shattered?
BRANDON SANDERSON
Yes!

 

My take is that Adonalsium was not shattered all at once, rather each different Shard was separated from it individually, shaped into their sixteen different Intents. So they should be numbered in the order that they were separated from each other. I could be way off, but it makes sense to me. It might also have to do with the order in which the Shards were taken up by their holders, I don't know. I wonder what number/colour Harmony would have? 

[lyht]

This is totally off-topic, but lyht's profile pic looks really awesome.

 

Thanks!

 

 

 

I wonder if the colours and numbers are intrinsic to the Shard's nature, a conscious decision to stick to a certain theme by the Shareholder, a 'pollution' of the Shard by the Shareholder's Cognitive aspect that associates certain themes with the Intent, biasing the magic system and themes, a thematic decision by Brandon that will go unexplained, or something else?

 

"Something else?" Is there something else? I think you just described everything possible.

 

Personally, I am still trying to wrap my head around the numbers relating to the Shards rather than the world. The numbers on Scadrial and Roshar seem to have as much effect on the magic as the focus. And I think there was a WoB that said the focus is more related to the world, but maybe I am remembering wrong.

[lyht]

My take is that Adonalsium was not shattered all at once, rather each different Shard was separated from it individually, shaped into their sixteen different Intents. So they should be numbered in the order that they were separated from each other. I could be way off, but it makes sense to me. It might also have to do with the order in which the Shards were taken up by their holders, I don't know. I wonder what number/colour Harmony would have? 

 

Both of those ideas are very interesting. And it would be very cool to find out that was the case, it would give us insight into the early history of the cosmere.

[Moogle]

Sel, (and Scadrial) should have two numbers, actually. The same way Roshar, if you look close, has three. 10, 11, and 14. 

 

Can you explain your reasoning on Roshar's numbers? I don't recall 11 or 14 being all that big.

[GreyPilgrim he/him]

It actually makes sense that colors correspond to Shards, if you think about it. Colors are determined by different wavelengths, thus by a number/quantity. If a number can be significant to a specific Shard, so can a wavelength. So it could be that Sel's colors are more important than numbers, as we've seen on other planets.

[Curiosity he/him]

White and Black for Preservation and Ruin! I always wondered what color mists other Shards would make, since we've seen black smoke for Ruin and white mist for Preservation. We sort of see this kind of thing in Stormlight, and the mysterious "dark light" that Szeth took from Galivar. Honor and Odium, perhaps?

Edited May 21, 2014 by Curiosity

[WeiryWriter he/him]

I'm pretty sceptical about the "each shard having an associated number" but the color thing is a pretty much definite no.  Preservation and Ruin being represented by white and black had to do with being viewed as polar opposites.  Shards can have colors but it has to do with where they are and what Shards they are interacting with, and there is no guarantee its color will always be the same.
 

Question

Ruin and Preservation were often represented in the Mistborn trilogy in terms of black and white. Is this imagery limited to that series, or do other Shards also have an associated hue?

Brandon Sanderson

This (Ruin & Preservation's colors) was because of the specific world and their perception of the world and themselves. Essentially, because of the dynamics of the interplay between Ruin and Preservation, they "chose" to view themselves as black and white respectively, so that's how they were represented. Also, because the only two Shards on Scadrial, and their natures were opposites, after the long period of time they spent on the same planet, they kind of "polarized." If a similar thing happened on another world, a similar coloring effect could happen.

 
(source)

[PorridgeBrick he/him]

SA's colors, I think, will likely be from each of the three moons. The moons are blue, green, and violet, colors that should never occur naturally on a moon. Since we know their orbits are also wonky and artificial, it makes sense that their colors are artificial too.

Edit: Ninja'd by Weiry.

Edited May 21, 2014 by PorridgeBrick

[Aonar he/him]

Moogle: Almost everything revolves around the number ten in Vorinism, but in our few references to Danmation the number eleven is prominent (I'm mostly thinking of the eleven names of Damnation quote, though I can't find it now). In the Way of Kings Prime (the bit that was released on Brandon's site), Jek (Szeth) makes reference to the number fourteen as a curse, and is likely related to the Shin theology. Now, since it's from WoK Prime, it can't be taken as canon, but hopefully that will clear up after Stones Unhallowed is released.

[GreyPilgrim he/him]

Very cool. I had not noticed the references to eleven and Damnation, nor fourteen by Jek/Szeth. Very interesting. If fourteen is actually significant, then I doubt it would have been changed since WoK prime, but yes, Book 3 will tell.

[Lurthemir he/him]

Hey guys I had this theory floating around in my head after I was doing some of my own worldbuilding and I decided that I needed holy numbers, I thought "Hey, I'll use the golden ratio." Since the Golden ration includes a decimal I needed to multiply by ten. The two numbers I got angered me slightly.

For those of you who don't know, the golden ratio is 1:1.6, and it's often seen relating to nature and architecture.

So I think that may be where Brandon got his numbers.

Edited May 22, 2014 by Lurthemir

[thecatinthehat]

Just because there were 5 Scholars doesn't mean that's the Number, after all, THere were 10 Highprinces and that's not the- Wow. Nevermind, just Ignore that last comment. I suppose all the Heightenings were at different Multiples of 5.

What has the number of Hallandren gods? 25 (= 5×5) or am I imagining things?

Sel, (and Scadrial) should have two numbers, actually. The same way Roshar, if you look close, has three. 10, 11, and 14.

Don't know if it's relevant, but the number associated with Atium was 9 during TLR reign. (And 21 afterwards. Lerasium's number was 23.)