Karger Posted May 12, 2019 Report Share Posted May 12, 2019 If your theory debate is clogging the thread you can just move it here so that you do not derail it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karger Posted May 12, 2019 Author Report Share Posted May 12, 2019 13 minutes ago, RShara said: They attract the spren with the deep lies they tell themselves. Then, in order to strengthen the bond, they have to shed those layers of lies and see their true selves. This has been confirmed multiple times in the books and via WoB. I....think we'd best just agree to disagree. I don't read any of those scenes the way you do, and I don't really see any evidence to support your theory. Also, we're waaaay off topic again. Yes! But I don't see them as lies and neither does Shallan at the time. As Pattern says "You cannot keep all the lies, only the most important." He was attracted to her ability to see things completely differently from the way that they actually were (like how she saw that her brother could be kind and that her father was still human) and the way she made it true (around her her brothers acted better and her father was more like an actual father). You would describe these as lies they are not. She is giving the truth a new face and making it act that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RShara Posted May 12, 2019 Report Share Posted May 12, 2019 I would prefer to stick with, "agree to disagree" at this point. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karger Posted May 12, 2019 Author Report Share Posted May 12, 2019 2 minutes ago, RShara said: I would prefer to stick with, "agree to disagree" at this point. Its not that. I am just irritated with myself for not being able to communicate my point to a sympathetic audience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis Posted May 12, 2019 Report Share Posted May 12, 2019 56 minutes ago, Karger said: Yes! But I don't see them as lies and neither does Shallan at the time. As Pattern says "You cannot keep all the lies, only the most important." He was attracted to her ability to see things completely differently from the way that they actually were (like how she saw that her brother could be kind and that her father was still human) and the way she made it true (around her her brothers acted better and her father was more like an actual father). You would describe these as lies they are not. She is giving the truth a new face and making it act that way. She not making a truth. She hiding from things she doesn't want to face. That's the root of literally all of her problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karger Posted May 12, 2019 Author Report Share Posted May 12, 2019 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Calderis said: She not making a truth. She hiding from things she doesn't want to face. That's the root of literally all of her problems. But her problems are related to her skills. You have to know the truth "Before you can expand on it." Just like you should know the law before you break it. In Kingkiller Kvothe can no longer be the person he was because he is not seen as the person he was and no longer sees himself as the person he was. Shallan's truth "I am a murderer" could have also been stated "I am a protector." Both are true and a lightweaver can make one or the other true. Edited May 12, 2019 by Karger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blightsong Posted May 12, 2019 Report Share Posted May 12, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Karger said: Yes! But I don't see them as lies and neither does Shallan at the time. As Pattern says "You cannot keep all the lies, only the most important." He was attracted to her ability to see things completely differently from the way that they actually were (like how she saw that her brother could be kind and that her father was still human) and the way she made it true (around her her brothers acted better and her father was more like an actual father). You would describe these as lies they are not. She is giving the truth a new face and making it act that way. I have one thing to add here. This effect Shallan has on people around her is something you are right to notice but not because it is an aspect of Shallan's personality that attracted Pattern. We know that this effect is magical in nature, meaning it likely started with her and Pattern's bond, not before. Quote Questioner [PENDING REVIEW] In Stormlight, with Kaladin and his brother Tien, is there a connection or a reason why, whenever his brother finds a rock, that keeps coming up several times? Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW] Yes. So, there's a couple themes going on here. One is just the subtle theme that Tien tends to find beauty in things that Kaladin finds dull. That's, of course, kind of the metaphor. But Tien also was a budding Lightweaver, and he saw color and light a little bit differently than other people did. And he has the same general effect that you'll see Shallan having on people, which is how the Lightweaver views you influences a little bit more how your mood is, and things like that... And there is a magical element to that, as well. There's both a metaphoric reason and an in-world reason. I do think it is interesting to look at this power through the lens of the uncertainty principle as it could pretty neatly tie in the "Law of Attraction" new age thought ideas that seem to exist in this particular order of Knights. I do think you are focusing on the wrong set of ideas though. This seems more to do with Resonances, the nature of both Illumination and Transformation, and how they as powers interact than Shallan's human psyche. What are your thoughts about the above WoB? Edited May 12, 2019 by Blightsong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis Posted May 12, 2019 Report Share Posted May 12, 2019 2 minutes ago, Karger said: But her problems are related to her skills. You have to know the truth "Before you can expand on it." Just like you should know the law before you break it. Lightweavers deal with self honesty and self deception. Just like creating a backstory for veil didn't give her skills that Shallan herself doesn't have, she can't "expand upon the truth" She's lying to herself, and her attempts to change who she is succeed only as far as her own, real, abilities can carry them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karger Posted May 12, 2019 Author Report Share Posted May 12, 2019 1 minute ago, Calderis said: Just like creating a backstory for veil didn't give her skills that Shallan herself doesn't have, she can't "expand upon the truth" Hoid says she can theoretically and in this case I don't think he is wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis Posted May 13, 2019 Report Share Posted May 13, 2019 31 minutes ago, Karger said: Hoid says she can theoretically and in this case I don't think he is wrong. That requires trusting Hoid, which I don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karger Posted May 13, 2019 Author Report Share Posted May 13, 2019 12 minutes ago, Calderis said: That requires trusting Hoid, which I don't. But Hoid has not lied to Shallan ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis Posted May 13, 2019 Report Share Posted May 13, 2019 (edited) 20 minutes ago, Karger said: But Hoid has not lied to Shallan ever. Hoid says and does what he needs to make what he thinks needs to happen, happen. Quote Wit smiled. “I am but a man, Dalinar, so much as I wish it were not true at times. I am no Radiant. And while I am your friend, please understand that our goals do not completely align. You must not trust yourself with me. If I have to watch this world crumble and burn to get what I need, I will do so. With tears, yes, but I would let it happen.” And he also tells Shallan himself not to trust her. Quote “Be wary of anyone who claims to be able to see the future, Shallan.” “Except you, of course. Didn’t you say you can see where you need to be?” “Be wary,” he repeated, “of anyone who claims to be able to see the future, Shallan.” How would we have any idea when or if Hoid has lied? Edited May 13, 2019 by Calderis 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karger Posted May 13, 2019 Author Report Share Posted May 13, 2019 4 minutes ago, Calderis said: How would we have any idea when or if Hoid has lied? Fine. As far as we know Hoid has never lied to Shallan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karger Posted December 9, 2019 Author Report Share Posted December 9, 2019 You can get rid of this On 12/1/2019 at 11:19 PM, Ashspren said: Szeth's father (Neturo-son-Vallano) has done something to get himself ostracized from Shin society. Why else would Szeth call himself Szeth-son-son-Vallano, ignoring his father's name? Szeth says "do not call me by my father's name he should not be sullied by his association with me"or something to this effect when the diagram shows him they have his oathstone. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashspren Posted December 12, 2019 Report Share Posted December 12, 2019 On 12/8/2019 at 7:08 PM, Ookla the Prolific said: You can get rid of this Szeth says "do not call me by my father's name he should not be sullied by his association with me"or something to this effect when the diagram shows him they have his oathstone. ...that makes a lot of sense. Thank you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karger Posted December 12, 2019 Author Report Share Posted December 12, 2019 7 hours ago, Ashspren said: ...that makes a lot of sense. Thank you! No problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karger Posted May 22, 2020 Author Report Share Posted May 22, 2020 1 minute ago, Frustration said: Parts of it, or part, most of it has yet to be confirmed or denied. Maybe update it then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frustration Posted May 22, 2020 Report Share Posted May 22, 2020 Just now, Karger said: Maybe update it then? I was going to do a big update after RoW as I'm doing one anyway, but I see what your going for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karger Posted May 22, 2020 Author Report Share Posted May 22, 2020 Just now, Frustration said: I was going to do a big update after RoW as I'm doing one anyway, but I see what your going for. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frustration Posted May 22, 2020 Report Share Posted May 22, 2020 20 minutes ago, Karger said: Thank you. This better Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karger Posted May 22, 2020 Author Report Share Posted May 22, 2020 25 minutes ago, Frustration said: This better Yes considerably. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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