Dalinar's Cultivation vs. The Diagram

[Emerald_Cross]

Um, OB spoilers.

So, Cultivation removed Dalinar's memories in order to cultivate him, much like a gardner would remove branches or shoots from a tree that have fouled for some reason in order for growth to happen, maybe to be grafted in at a later date when they could help the tree instead of harm it.

So Cultivation starts returning Dalinar's pruned memories, and Dalinar later in the book realizes that Odium intended to return the memories all at the same time, which probably would have overwhelmed him to the point of giving up his pain. 

So Cultivation had a really smart plot for foiling Odium by using Dalinar.

Why the mysterious tenth pancake did the Diagram order Dalinar's execution, and when that failed, removal from power and humiliation? Why did cultivation not try to stop that? If she had the Foresight to cultivate Dalinar in order to be able to resist Odium, then why were her Diagrammists actively trying to subvert what she was working on?

[Landis963 he/him]

13 hours ago, Karger said:

But the diagram does warn Odium about him.

Odium didn't exactly get the memo, and neither past Taravangian nor present Taravangian saw fit to volunteer info which could clue Odium in.  (Seriously, Odium was looking directly at it when T quoted himself arguing for his continued utility, and made no sign of acknowledging its presence) Admittedly, this could qualify as "warning" Odium, but divulging the continued presence of a precog among Odium's enemies does not seem to have been a goal that past-T devoted a lot of effort to.  

[Elegy he/him]

So it has been a few months since this was last touched, but there was a small debate on the first page about whether Taravangian's weirdness came from the Nightwatcher or Cultivation, and the answer to that is very relevant to the thread's main question. That's why I think this is a good place to share this WOB, fresh out of the oven:

Quote

Kfirw

Did Taravangian meet the Nightwatcher? Or Cultivation?

Brandon Sanderson

Cultivation. Good question.

Tel Aviv Signing (Oct. 18, 2019)

 

[Calderis he/him]

2 hours ago, Elegy said:

So it has been a few months since this was last touched, but there was a small debate on the first page about whether Taravangian's weirdness came from the Nightwatcher or Cultivation, and the answer to that is very relevant to the thread's main question. That's why I think this is a good place to share this WOB, fresh out of the oven:

 

I am shocked. I swear. 

[GoWibble he/him]

On 5/7/2019 at 2:04 PM, SwordNimiForPresident said:

I agree with @Calderis, the Diagram is all part of Cultivation's long game. We might not be able to see where she's going with it, but that's only because we, like Taravangian, can't see all of the pieces.

do we know if Cultivation can see the future clearly, or more than Preservation

*Turns this thread into a Shard Dicussion

[Quantus he/him]

1 hour ago, GoWibble said:

do we know if Cultivation can see the future clearly, or more than Preservation

*Turns this thread into a Shard Dicussion

I thought it was confirmed in OB that she could see the future more clearly than Odium (who "can see the Future, though only cloudily"), but I dont know that we've gotten any datapoints comparing her to Preservation.  Closest I could find was this, which confirms that it's a matter of differing Intents.  Personally, I expect that both Preservation and Cultivation are better at seeing the Future than Odium because there is an Innate Temporal Element to both their Intents , both of them relate to Change (or lack of it) Over Time, and cannot be conceptually separated from it as opposed to others like Automony or Endowment that are more time-independent concepts.  Between the two, I figure Preservation is going to be more focused on the Past than the Future, meanwhile Cultivation is 100% all about guiding things toward a specific Future.  On that logic Im guessing Cultivation is a solid candidate for the Strongest Future sight among the 16.  

 

 

Quote

 

Jeremy (paraphrased)

When Honor speaks of his inability to see the future, he likens it to a shattering window. Is this related to the fact that in the not-too-distant future, he himself will be splintered? Or is it more a matter of Intent; e.g., Cultivation (and Preservation?) is geared toward future development, whereas Honor is geared toward current behavior.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

This is not related to his impending Splintering, it is a matter of differing Intents.

When Worlds Collide 2014 (Aug. 9, 2014)

 

 

 

[StanLemon]

30 minutes ago, Quantus said:

I thought it was confirmed in OB that she could see the future more clearly than Odium (who "can see the Future, though only cloudily"), but I dont know that we've gotten any datapoints comparing her to Preservation.  Closest I could find was this, which confirms that it's a matter of differing Intents.  Personally, I expect that both Preservation and Cultivation are better at seeing the Future than Odium because there is an Innate Temporal Element to both their Intents , both of them relate to Change (or lack of it) Over Time, and cannot be conceptually separated from it as opposed to others like Automony or Endowment that are more time-independent concepts.  Between the two, I figure Preservation is going to be more focused on the Past than the Future, meanwhile Cultivation is 100% all about guiding things toward a specific Future.  On that logic Im guessing Cultivation is a solid candidate for the Strongest Future sight among the 16.  

 

 

 

 

I don't think there is confirmation on whether for sure she is or not. But we can infer that she is. She Cultivated  Dalinar seemingly perfectly  and played Odium for a fool in OB. Personally I think she's on a comparable level as Preservation  based on her Intent. Considering we know how good Preservation was, that's saying something. 

I'm not sure which of the two would be better though. To properly keep something preserved you need to plan for all the things that can affect it and to cultivate something you need to under how it will grow. Both are extensive.

Edited October 25, 2019 by StanLemon

[Calderis he/him]

Preservation was not opposed by a shard that used foresight at the same level as Odium. Whether she is at or above Preservation's level, she's still going to be dealing with the long term equivalent of atium splitting shadows against someone else burning it. 

All things considered, she's doing pretty damned well in my opinion. But she is my favorite of the Shards, so I'm biased. 

[Karger he/him]

20 hours ago, Calderis said:

Preservation was not opposed by a shard that used foresight at the same level as Odium. Whether she is at or above Preservation's level, she's still going to be dealing with the long term equivalent of atium splitting shadows against someone else burning it. 

All things considered, she's doing pretty damned well in my opinion. But she is my favorite of the Shards, so I'm biased. 

She at least won the last round(we think) but we don't know where in the game we are.

[StanLemon]

On 10/26/2019 at 1:03 AM, Calderis said:

Preservation was not opposed by a shard that used foresight at the same level as Odium.

We don't know that. We don't know how good Odium's is. Also, Ruin wasn't half bad at future sight either. he was able to make at minimum a decade long plan to take down TLR. It's just that Preservation foresaw everything that Ruin would do and incorporated it into his plan.