Dalinar's Cultivation vs. The Diagram

[Emerald_Cross]

Um, OB spoilers.

So, Cultivation removed Dalinar's memories in order to cultivate him, much like a gardner would remove branches or shoots from a tree that have fouled for some reason in order for growth to happen, maybe to be grafted in at a later date when they could help the tree instead of harm it.

So Cultivation starts returning Dalinar's pruned memories, and Dalinar later in the book realizes that Odium intended to return the memories all at the same time, which probably would have overwhelmed him to the point of giving up his pain. 

So Cultivation had a really smart plot for foiling Odium by using Dalinar.

Why the mysterious tenth pancake did the Diagram order Dalinar's execution, and when that failed, removal from power and humiliation? Why did cultivation not try to stop that? If she had the Foresight to cultivate Dalinar in order to be able to resist Odium, then why were her Diagrammists actively trying to subvert what she was working on?

[Elegy he/him]

The Diagram is not made by Cultivation but made by Taravangian while using powers that were granted to him via Cultivation. I don't think everything Smartaravangian sees as the right thing to do would be approved by Cultivation. After all, it's not her thing to make people do exactly what she wants them to, but to give them the chance to reach that by their own will and make their own decision for it. That said, I do think that Cultivation's plans are incredibly shaky. Dalinar's decision against Odium was a huge gamble, so I do think that there are many things that could go wrong with her plans. I think that might be because straight manipulation is against her Intent. Just like Preservation can't kill anyone, Cultivation might not be able to force people into doing something, so she has to give them a choice, because otherwise, she refuses their growth. Taravangian probably chose the wrong thing. She wants to cultivate him as well, she wants him to grow - in what way exactly obviously isn't certain yet, but I see several possibilities: She might challenge him to choose against utilitarism and for idealism (a strong theme with the Knights Radiant, after all), or she might challenge him to always make his own decisions instead of following the orders of another version of him. Cultivation needs autonomy and independence, and Taravangian as of now is very dependent on the Diagram e.g. what his former self said. So I believe that Taravangian, as of yet, refused to grow. It's comparable to how Dalinar losing his memories could have been used by Odium to make him his, but Dalinar's own decision prevented that from happening, so it helped him grow as a person. And Taravangian hasn't done that yet and always decided to do the wrong thing.

So, for Cultivation it seems to be important that a person can also fail. Which, again, makes her plans very risky, but she might not be able to do it any other way.

[Dunkum he/him]

I'll add that Taravangian's diagram probably doesn't come from some kind of foresight at all.  the best parallel I have for it is if someone were compunding zinc for mental speed.  it isn't that he could see the future, but that he could think so fast and see connections that others missed to the point that he could pretty reliably predict, from the current state of the world, what the future might look like.

[Karger he/him]

Cultivation did not give Taravangian his powers the Nightwatcher did.  Read into that what you will.  Also her shardic intent is to make things grow.  She allowed Dalinar to grow into something new because he asked her to and because there was a chance that he would be able to misdirect Odium in the future (which did happen).  She also now "has a part of him" whatever that means.  Taravangian is also growing into what I cannot say.  I also am not sure that she can make her daughter take back her gift or kill Taravangian to stop him from doing anything.  Remember she is in hiding.

[Pathfinder]

47 minutes ago, Karger said:

Cultivation did not give Taravangian his powers the Nightwatcher did.  Read into that what you will.  Also her shardic intent is to make things grow.  She allowed Dalinar to grow into something new because he asked her to and because there was a chance that he would be able to misdirect Odium in the future (which did happen).  She also now "has a part of him" whatever that means.  Taravangian is also growing into what I cannot say.  I also am not sure that she can make her daughter take back her gift or kill Taravangian to stop him from doing anything.  Remember she is in hiding.

For the first two books we thought as per Dalinar that he went to the Nightwatcher. Turns out Cultivation took the matter into her own hands regarding Dalinar and he remembered incorrectly. So we do not definitively know it was the Nightwatcher Taravangian dealt with, even though he said he did. Could be a situation similar to Dalinar. 

[Karger he/him]

16 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

For the first two books we thought as per Dalinar that he went to the Nightwatcher. Turns out Cultivation took the matter into her own hands regarding Dalinar and he remembered incorrectly. So we do not definitively know it was the Nightwatcher Taravangian dealt with, even though he said he did. Could be a situation similar to Dalinar. 

I think we have a WoB on Taravangian using the Nightwatcher. 

[Pathfinder]

4 minutes ago, Karger said:

I think we have a WoB on Taravangian using the Nightwatcher. 

You mean like these? As shown below, you can see, or visit the nightwatcher but that doesn't necessarily mean it was the one that gave the boon. Dalinar saw the nightwatcher, but it was cultivation that did it.

 

Questioner
When will we find out what the Nightwatcher looks like?

Brandon Sanderson
Um… well, Dalinar, in the past, met the Nightwatcher. Dalinar's third book is getting flashback sequences to his past experiences. You can postulate that one of those important past experiences might be a visit to the Nightwatcher.

 

darkanimereal1 (paraphrased)

Did Taravangian go to see the Nightwatcher before or after Gavilar's assassination?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Um, oh man. I'm going to have to look at my timeline. I believe it's before, but I can't guarantee I'm right, because these things are all happening around the same time.

darkanimereal1 (paraphrased)

Because he says that Gavilar confided in him the night of.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Ooooh, you're right. Nope, it's after. It is after. You can send that question to Peter so we can confirm it. There might be something I'm forgetting about Taravangian.

[Calderis he/him]

In complete contrast to everyone else here, I'm going to just quote my theory on the Diagram because I think Cultivation is absolutely responsible for it, even if it was T alone. And it sure as hell isn't what Taravangian thinks. 

On 6/24/2018 at 8:47 AM, Calderis said:

Weeeee, Taravangian thread! My favorite.

First thing first, his boon and curse. There is no storming way that this was the Nightwatcher. She couldn't grasp the concept of forgiveness, or why someone would want it. Capacity? And the craziness of this boon/curse? 

Every example given to us of a Nightwatcher boon/curse are two distinct things. A boon, and numb hands. Cloth, and seeing the world upside down. The very way that people speak of a boon and a curse. But in Dalinar we saw a boon and curse intertwined. I think with both Taravangian and Lift we're seeing the same things. Far more complicated, and far more powerful gifts than the Nightwatcher is capable of. Cultivation's work, used with Cultivation's foresight. 

So the Diagram... Is not what it seems to be. Taravangian believes that his interpretations have failed, and there are contingencies and branches. That the further he gets from the day it was made the more it diverges from its accuracy. And yet it was able to foresee the circumstances of him being met with by Odium on a low intelligence day? So much so that it includes details about Odium have agreed to a trial of champions and being unable to confront Dalinar directly any longer? 

Quote

“You need me,” Taravangian whispered.
“I need nobody.”
Taravangian looked up and there, glowing in front of him, was a set of words. A message from himself, in the past. Incredible! Had he somehow seen even this?
Thank you.
He read them out loud. “You have agreed to a battle of champions. You must withdraw to prevent this contest from occurring, and so must not meet with Dalinar Kholin again. Otherwise, he can force you to fight. This means you must let your agents do your work. You need me.”

I don't believe that for a moment. The Diagram has been absolutely accurate up to this point. It's "failures" have steered events precisely. Szeth's slaughter of world leaders created the ground on which the coalition was built. The release of information to undermine the coalition lead directly to Dalinar's desperate situation and rejection of Odium during the battle of Thaylen city which in turn led to the meeting with Odium where he read those words. 

Taravangian on the day of the Diagram laid out this plan to steer his less intelligent self (and even on genius days, he's still far less intelligent) by the nose to follow the true plan he had on that day. That plan did not exist outside of his head. Odium is aware of everything that is in the Diagram, and to have written down the plan would mean to expose it to scrutiny.

The goals of the Diagram are not, and have never been what Taravangian believes. This is not about saving a remnant. This is not capitulation. This is about positioning himself where he can do the most to undermine Odium directly. He is now a "servant" of Odium, ruling one of the most powerful nations on Roshar. Odium believes him to be loyal out of necessity, because Taravangian himself believes that. Which is the entire point. He is a trusted tool of the enemy. It's in that "capacity" that he'll be able to do what needs to be done. 

Or as @RShara likes to put it. "T is a plant" 

The Diagram has done everything according to plan. 

[Karger he/him]

41 minutes ago, Calderis said:

The Diagram has done everything according to plan. 

Interesting theory.  What is the cost in this case?

[Dunkum he/him]

5 minutes ago, Karger said:

Interesting theory.  What is the cost in this case?

does there have to be one?  Nightwatcher is presuably bound to that boon/curse format, but Cultivation definitely isn't. 

[Calderis he/him]

The cost to Taravangian is exactly what he thinks it is. He can't have understanding of both sides of his nature at the same time, which is completely unnatural. Intellect does not inherently counter empathy. 

It's still intertwined with his boon in a way that seems to be a callsign of Cultivation, rather than the clear and segregated mentions of a Nightwatcher boon/curse (which we've not actually seen firsthand in my opinion). 

[Will Arbit]

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

For the first two books we thought as per Dalinar that he went to the Nightwatcher. Turns out Cultivation took the matter into her own hands regarding Dalinar and he remembered incorrectly. So we do not definitively know it was the Nightwatcher Taravangian dealt with, even though he said he did. Could be a situation similar to Dalinar. 

Dalinar's situation involved memory, which we knew from very early on. Taravangian's doesn't, so we have much less reason to suspect that his impression of the interaction is wrong.

When Dalinar met Cultivation, if I remember correctly (I don't have Oathbringer with me), he first met Nightwatcher, and then Cultivation intervened. When Taravangian was complaining that Nightwatcher didn't forgo her traditional bane even though what he asked for was the capacity to save the world, he would probably have mentioned if some third party interrupted.

Of course, this doesn't mean that Cultivation didn't meet with him pretending to be Nightwatcher the entire time, but that wouldn't be the same situation as Dalinar.

Taravangian's situation is so different from Dalinar's that I don't think it's very likely that Cultivation intervened. It would certainly be interesting to ask Brandon how many of the 'Nightwatcher''s bargains were actually Cultivation, though!

 

Edit: Wow, when you forget to post other people post much more interesting things!

Edited May 7, 2019 by Will Arbit

[Calderis he/him]

@Will Arbit when Dalinar meets with Cultivation she tells him that it is the first time she intervened in ages.

That flashback heading reads "Five and a half years ago" 

Taravangian's mysterious malady, which was a cover for his trip to the Valley, happened Five years ago. 

In the entirety of the series, Dalinar's trip to the Nightwatcher is the only time a partial year is noted. 

I don't believe that is unintentional.

[Will Arbit]

2 minutes ago, Calderis said:

@Will Arbit when Dalinar meets with Cultivation she tells him that it is the first time she intervened in ages.

That flashback heading reads "Five and a half years ago" 

Taravangian's mysterious malady, which was a cover for his trip to the Valley, happened Five years ago. 

In the entirety of the series, Dalinar's trip to the Nightwatcher is the only time a partial year is noted. 

I don't believe that is unintentional.

Wow! That is fascinating.
I wonder what made her change her habits?

[SwordNimiForPresident the sword/that sword]

I agree with @Calderis, the Diagram is all part of Cultivation's long game. We might not be able to see where she's going with it, but that's only because we, like Taravangian, can't see all of the pieces.

Dalinar - "Why would you do that?"

Taravangian - "We're in the endgame now Dalinar." *turns to dust*

[RShara she/her]

3 hours ago, Calderis said:

In complete contrast to everyone else here, I'm going to just quote my theory on the Diagram because I think Cultivation is absolutely responsible for it, even if it was T alone. And it sure as hell isn't what Taravangian thinks. 

The Diagram has done everything according to plan. 

One of these days, I'll type up my T is a Plant post again, and this will all make sense

[Emerald_Cross]

Just gonna throw this in here:

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

We saw that, in one case that she felt it was very important, Cultivation intervened when Dalinar was asking for his boon from the Nightwatcher. You said that for the most part she just sort of lets her work, but has she intervened in other cases that she feels are important, specifically with Taravangian?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

She has intervened before.

JordanCon 2018 (April 21, 2018)

[Pathfinder]

3 hours ago, Will Arbit said:

Dalinar's situation involved memory, which we knew from very early on. Taravangian's doesn't, so we have much less reason to suspect that his impression of the interaction is wrong.

When Dalinar met Cultivation, if I remember correctly (I don't have Oathbringer with me), he first met Nightwatcher, and then Cultivation intervened. When Taravangian was complaining that Nightwatcher didn't forgo her traditional bane even though what he asked for was the capacity to save the world, he would probably have mentioned if some third party interrupted.

Of course, this doesn't mean that Cultivation didn't meet with him pretending to be Nightwatcher the entire time, but that wouldn't be the same situation as Dalinar.

Taravangian's situation is so different from Dalinar's that I don't think it's very likely that Cultivation intervened. It would certainly be interesting to ask Brandon how many of the 'Nightwatcher''s bargains were actually Cultivation, though!

 

Edit: Wow, when you forget to post other people post much more interesting things!

Little tidbit to add, Cultivation did give Dalinar a curse. She says it herself. Taking the memories away of the people killed at the Rift and giving Dalinar a chance to change was the boon, taking the memories of Evi away was the curse. refer to Oathbringer page 1079

[Landis963 he/him]

Something else of note regarding the Diagram - it foretells Renarin's existence and his powers, and withholds that information from Odium when he comes a-calling.  Yet more evidence of T's sleeper agent status.  

[Karger he/him]

12 hours ago, Landis963 said:

Something else of note regarding the Diagram - it foretells Renarin's existence and his powers, and withholds that information from Odium when he comes a-calling.  Yet more evidence of T's sleeper agent status.  

Not necessarily.  It could have been speaking Renarin's effect on Dalinar emotionally.  He has an extremely different personality to anyone Dalinar could otherwise be in contact with.

[Landis963 he/him]

On 6/23/2019 at 0:14 AM, Karger said:

Not necessarily.  It could have been speaking Renarin's effect on Dalinar emotionally.  He has an extremely different personality to anyone Dalinar could otherwise be in contact with.

"A section of words that had faded from golden to black.  What was that? As he drew near, Taravangian saw that the words were blacked out into eternity starting from this point on his wall.  As if something had happened here.  A ripple in what Odium could see...

At its root, a name.  Renarin Kholin."  (OB, p. 1216, hardcover)

Admittedly it isn't as in-depth as I thought.  However, I find it difficult to believe that Renarin is important only insofar as his effect on his father, and furthermore I find the fact that his name in the Diagram is faded to black deeply suspicious, especially since Odium himself is providing this expanded copy of the Diagram.  In addition, the very next line ("'Dalinar was not supposed to Ascend,' Odium said.") appears related, but on closer inspection is a bit of a non sequitur in the context of Renarin, especially as he was mostly unrelated to Dalinar's refusal of Odium's temptation.  This in itself is a bit odd - why has Odium not noticed the singular black splotch in his otherwise pristinely golden room of text?  Especially since T quotes the Diagram verbatim, off the very same wall, and Odium, reading that section himself, fails to note the Renarin section's presence.  Ergo, something is interfering with Odium's expansion of the Diagram, and that something is closely related to Renarin.  What could it be?  Well, we know Renarin sees potential futures.  Occam's razor and the mechanics of Allomantic electrum and atium conflicts suggest that his continued existence is preventing Odium from knowing everything.  

[RShara she/her]

30 minutes ago, Landis963 said:

"A section of words that had faded from golden to black.  What was that? As he drew near, Taravangian saw that the words were blacked out into eternity starting from this point on his wall.  As if something had happened here.  A ripple in what Odium could see...

At its root, a name.  Renarin Kholin."  (OB, p. 1216, hardcover)

Admittedly it isn't as in-depth as I thought.  However, I find it difficult to believe that Renarin is important only insofar as his effect on his father, and furthermore I find the fact that his name in the Diagram is faded to black deeply suspicious, especially since Odium himself is providing this expanded copy of the Diagram.  In addition, the very next line ("'Dalinar was not supposed to Ascend,' Odium said.") appears related, but on closer inspection is a bit of a non sequitur in the context of Renarin, especially as he was mostly unrelated to Dalinar's refusal of Odium's temptation.  This in itself is a bit odd - why has Odium not noticed the singular black splotch in his otherwise pristinely golden room of text?  Especially since T quotes the Diagram verbatim, off the very same wall, and Odium, reading that section himself, fails to note the Renarin section's presence.  Ergo, something is interfering with Odium's expansion of the Diagram, and that something is closely related to Renarin.  What could it be?  Well, we know Renarin sees potential futures.  Occam's razor and the mechanics of Allomantic electrum and atium conflicts suggest that his continued existence is preventing Odium from knowing everything.  

Brandon's confirmed that the section of the Diagram dealing with Renarin is blackened because of the interference from Renarin's visions, similar to how two atium burners will cancel each other out (or an atium and electrum burner)

[Karger he/him]

10 hours ago, Landis963 said:

Admittedly it isn't as in-depth as I thought.  However, I find it difficult to believe that Renarin is important only insofar as his effect on his father, and furthermore I find the fact that his name in the Diagram is faded to black deeply suspicious, especially since Odium himself is providing this expanded copy of the Diagram

As Rhara said his powers cancel Odium's which is why Odium can't see it.  Taravangian might realize this at the time but that does not mean the diagram predicted it.  The diagram with the exception of Dalinar does not seem to predict any Radiant's existence.  Remember he had to manually search for Kaladin and Shallan only came under observation after she began associating with Jasnah.

10 hours ago, Landis963 said:

Occam's razor and the mechanics of Allomantic electrum and atium conflicts suggest that his continued existence is preventing Odium from knowing everything.  

Of course.  I never said otherwise.  The fact that the diagram may not predict R's powers does not mean that he does not have them.

10 hours ago, Landis963 said:

Renarin, especially as he was mostly unrelated to Dalinar's refusal of Odium's temptation

Dalinar's entire life experience was realated to his refusal of Odium.  Are you saying his children were not part of his life experience?

[Landis963 he/him]

On 7/19/2019 at 11:07 AM, Karger said:

Dalinar's entire life experience was realated to his refusal of Odium.  Are you saying his children were not part of his life experience?

I meant that Renarin's actions around the time of the Battle of Thaylen Field were physically removed from Dalinar's, and thus Renarin could to nothing to aid or hinder Dalinar's choice at that time.  My larger point, however, is this: the Diagram knew that Renarin was important.  (If he wasn't, why would it touch on him at all?)  Since Renarin is important enough for the Diagram to note him, I find it highly suggestive that he happens to be important in a way that prevents the Diagram from warning Odium about him.  

[Karger he/him]

9 hours ago, Landis963 said:

I find it highly suggestive that he happens to be important in a way that prevents the Diagram from warning Odium about him.  

But the diagram does warn Odium about him.

[+Harrycrapper]

I'd like to add this, addressing the OP. It could be said that Taravangian's efforts to undermine Dalinar put him in the exact situation that he was in where he was able to resist Odium. I think had Dalinar just gotten the memories but still retained his place of power in Urithiru he might not have been in the same place or situation and we can't really know what would happen then. Also, the attempts to have Dalinar executed actually brought Szeth to Dalinar and therefore Kaladin and changed his path towards helping our favorite protagonists. I guess the question is; are events happening because of or in spite of the Diagram?