Why did Odium and Honor change sides?

[Chana]

If I understand the big ‘humans are voidbringers’ thing Odium created humans on Ashyn and Honor and Cultivation created the singers. But then during the subsequent Desolations (if we count the arrival of humans or maybe the moment they broke the agreement and left Shinovar as a first desolation) the Shards changed sides with Odium helping the singers and Honor and Cult aiding humans. Do we know why they decided to switch? If not, I’m curious to hear your theories.

I think it’s odd for Honor to support humans since they supposedly broke the agreement and attacked the singers taking their land. That seems like an oath broken but obviously we don’t have a full story yet. On the other hand, Odium doesn’t seem to care much about anything except destroying other Shards so I don’t see why would he suddenly change his favored race unless it would help him with that or Honor changed first.

[RShara she/her]

Odium did not create humans. Odium didn't create or invest on any world until he got trapped in the Rosharan system. I believe that he was on Ashyn only long enough to influence people to screw up their planet, possibly as an initial move to use them in a plot to weaken or attack Honor and Cultivation. Things happened, and he found the singers easier to influence, or other events took place that we'll find out about later.

Edited March 27, 2019 by RShara

[+Invocation]

The singers (along with Roshar, including the highstorms and a version of the Stormfather) predate the Shattering that created the Shards. Human life on Ashyn, as well, predates the Shattering, presumably due to Adonalsium's tinkering with the whole system.

[Karger he/him]

First of all Odium did not create the humans of Ashyn.  Most sapient races were created prior to the shattering and we know that the singers were created along with Roshar by Adonalsium.  Also Odium would hate(pun intended) the expenditure of investiture necessary to create a race or anything else.  His MO is to co-opt or corrupt existing individuals or investiture.  I do not think that Honor was pleased that the humans violated their agreement but he was likely much less pleased with the singers turning to Odium who offered them power against their enemies in exchange for their service.  The singer spren bonding process made them easier to control then humans and their were likely more of them at the time so Odium probably found both them and their hatred against humans appealing.  Honor and Cultivation were both good individuals who had compassion for humans struggling against impossible odds so they likely listened when the humans asked for help.

[Calderis he/him]

The simplest answer is we don't know the full story. Considering the themes in Stormlight of prejudice and oppression and the fact that we have a shard named "Odium" I very much doubt it is as straightforward as it's been presented. 

I do not believe for a moment that this fight is going to be "Human VS. Singer." and I doubt it started that way. We see humans fight for Odium in the Desolations themselves in Dalinar's visions. 

And as Rshara said, the humans on Ashyn were not created by Odium. Even the idea that he was "their God" is debatable. 

Quote

Hoidonalsium [PENDING REVIEW]

What was the order of the Shards coming to Roshar and changing allegiances? Did Humans come with Odium?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

So... you're talking about on Roshar specifically? So, Odium had visited Roshar. The humans gave him more of an ear... The Dawnsingers would have considered him the god of the people who had come, but-- I mean, it wasn't like they necessarily brought him. He was capable of getting around before that. I mean, he did kinda come along with them, he was instrumental in what happened there.

Hoidonalsium [PENDING REVIEW]

Okay, but he was separate, and after Honor and Cultivation had really settled there?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes, he was after Honor and Cultivation had settled.

Oathbringer Glasgow signing (Dec. 2, 2017)

 

Edited March 27, 2019 by Calderis

[Chana]

My bad, you can see that I read the Mistborn trilogy first and now see shards creating life everywhere.
However I think it's still interesting to why Honor decided to support humans that much. Per that WoB, since the Healds came from Ashyn, the Oathpact and that exodus happened in a lifetime. So the breaking of the agreement had to happen rather quickily if the situation had time to escalate to a level where the Oathpact was needed. And it's also interesting that Honor decided to have a pact with the people that broke a pact they themselves agreed to. Not sure about Honor but that makes a lot of difference for me.

Quote

Willshaper Wallar [PENDING REVIEW]

...Were the Heralds alive for the human exodus from Ashyn?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes. They were not Heralds then, but they all made that trip. I believe. My timeline-- You can't nail me down on that one, because it's possible that Ash was born after, but I don't think so.

I'm pretty sure we'll get all of the answers by the time the back five are published but it's gonna be so long and I can't help but wonder what's it all about. Especially since now it seems so much more intense than I thought it would be when I started reading the books.

[Mailnaise she/her]

6 hours ago, Chana said:

I'm pretty sure we'll get all of the answers by the time the back five are published but it's gonna be so long

A small consolation~ the Stormlight 4 and 5 Outlining Progress bar is up to 80%!!!

Just a little closer folks. 

[Karger he/him]

6 hours ago, Chana said:

However I think it's still interesting to why Honor decided to support humans that much. Per that WoB, since the Healds came from Ashyn, the Oathpact and that exodus happened in a lifetime. So the breaking of the agreement had to happen rather quickily if the situation had time to escalate to a level where the Oathpact was needed. And it's also interesting that Honor decided to have a pact with the people that broke a pact they themselves agreed to. Not sure about Honor but that makes a lot of difference for me.

First of all we do not know what drove the humans out of Shinovar it could have been several things.  We also do not know if they actually agreed to the land division or if this was decided for them.  Finally Honor is not just the Shard of oaths he genuinely cared for sapient life so him going out of his way to stop a never ending atrocity is not unreasonable for him.

[Chana]

21 hours ago, Karger said:

Finally Honor is not just the Shard of oaths he genuinely cared for sapient life so him going out of his way to stop a never ending atrocity is not unreasonable for him.

What do you mean an never ending atrocity? I mean Odium unbound is clearly dangerous and after winning in this system he would probably move on to the other one, but if he won the fight of Roshar wouldn't he just kill the enemy army? Like that's what war is about and with Odium's troops losing it's just that they're going to die.

It's probably as simple as with Honor just wanting to stop Odium, so he just took the opposing side. He probably tried to get rid of Odium's influence of humans in which he mostly succeded, but the singers feeled betrayed by Honor focusing so much on them, which Odium used to influence them instead. I know the war is not simple singers versus humans but I believe at the beginning it could be. We have Herald who are human and the Fused who are singers. We've seen humans fighting on Odium's side and we know of singers reluctant to listen to voidspren and there's obviously Venli but the sides that started this mess and made deals with the Shards seem to be divided by the species. After all, that would be the easiest war for Odium to orchestrate simple us vs. them.

[Karger he/him]

2 hours ago, Chana said:

What do you mean an never ending atrocity?

A group of people bent on genocide that show up after you kill them.  Imagine a bunch of continuously reincarnating nazis.  That is basically what the fused are.  Without them humans and singers might eventually find peace but with them that would be basically impossible.

[Subvisual Haze]

On 3/28/2019 at 8:03 AM, Karger said:

First of all we do not know what drove the humans out of Shinovar it could have been several things.  We also do not know if they actually agreed to the land division or if this was decided for them.  Finally Honor is not just the Shard of oaths he genuinely cared for sapient life so him going out of his way to stop a never ending atrocity is not unreasonable for him.

The human being Tanavast who was trying to direct the power of the Honor shard cared about people.  The honor shard though is probably pure Lawful Neutral (follow the letter of the law and fulfill the letter of oaths at all costs) and has little inherent compassion.  And the pattern over time seems to be the nature of the shards gaining dominance over the nuances of the individual shardholder's personality.

Remember that young village burning Dalinar was mix of both Odium and Honor.  In fact the Stormfather (current holder of Honor's remains) saw nothing inherently wrong with Dalinar's actions at the Rift.  The Rift was in rebellion against their rulers and betrayed a safe parlay to lead Dalinar into a trap (un-lawful), Dalinar punished the entire city for the fault fulfilling a prior oath (lawful).

Honor and Odium can be quite mutually compatible for a Lawful Evil individual.

[Angsos]

Mistborn spoiler

Spoiler

Ati probably took Ruin to make it safe and ended up turning into a monster against his will.

 

[StormblessedSurvivor he/him]

2 hours ago, Angsos said:

Mistborn spoiler

  Reveal hidden contents

Ati probably took Ruin to make it safe and ended up turning into a monster against his will.

 

Do we have any confirmation that the Vessels chose what Shard they took up? I was under the impression that they took up the one that fit them best. Such as,

Mistborn Spoiler

Spoiler

Leras said that Ati believed all things must come to an end, hence the Ruin.

 

[RShara she/her]

22 minutes ago, StormblessedSurvivor said:

Do we have any confirmation that the Vessels chose what Shard they took up? I was under the impression that they took up the one that fit them best. Such as,

Mistborn Spoiler

  Reveal hidden contents

Leras said that Ati believed all things must come to an end, hence the Ruin.

 

They had some degree of choice. Hoid was able to turn down one, after all. It might have varied for each person.

[Calderis he/him]

And Odium is said to have become "what he chose to be" 

The idea that they knew beforehand has a bit of evidence to it. 

[Deathwielded]

I am also very curious on the origins of humans coming to Roshar and the Dawnshards or Surgebinding that destroyed a planet. 

  I believe we are currently aware of the following sequence of events so far:

1. Singers lived peacefully on Roshar with spren and Highstorms.

2. Humans lived on Ashyn and based on what we know of the Silence Divine they had a virus/bacteria based Investiture that granted powers.

3.  Honor and Cultivation are on Roshar.

4. Odium was traveling the cosmere Splintering shards. ( he could have ended up on Ashyn and pushed them along to destroy the planet perhaps)

5. the humans from Ashyn destroyed the planet using what we are calling the Dawnshards or a form of Surgebinding. (could just be using known words to refer to a lost magic system)

6. the Humans were transferred from the destroyed planet to Roshar using a not fully explained process that Brandon is still working on the mechanics of.  

7. the gods (Honor and Cultivation) told the Singers to allow the humans to live in Roshar and the Singers granted them the land now know as Shinovar.

8. we know many of the Heralds were alive on Ashyn and they were still alive when the first desolation started. 

9. Odium Invested some of the Singers to become the fused making the war un-winnable for the Humans/Voidbringers.

10. Honor Created the Honorblades (and thus the Stormlight Surges we know today) for the Heralds and the Oathpact is forged. (unsure if the Honorblades were made for the first desolation or after they broke pact the first time. I think before)

11. Odium and the fused are bound to Braize by the Heralds, but it doesn't last as we know.

12. the cycle of Desolation continue and the line defining sides and who is now called the voidbringers are blurred 

13. during the Desolations the Fused learn how to use voidbinding to combat the Herald's Surges and the first non-herald humans starting bonding True Spren who mimicked the Honorblade's Surges to help in the fight.

14. the Knights Radiant were formally organized by Ishar and the Heralds became the begrudging patrons for the 10 orders. 

15. the Knight Radiant would discover the truth that the humans were the invaders and the Singers were the Original inhabitants and fear their powers could destroy Roshar just like their Ancestors destroyed Ashyn but Honor would console them and encourage them thus keeping them in line.

16. the False desolation happens were Odium and Heralds were still sealed on Braize, but Ba-ado-mishram started providing voidlight and forms of power before being sealed by a strike team of Radiants. 

17. Honer getting weaker and starts dying. This is likely due to Odium attacking Honor or the oath pact breaking so much. Probably both.

18. the Day of Recreance happens once the Knights Radiant once again discover the truth of their alien origins, but Honor is raving mad instead of helping them understand or encouraging them. 

19. the "Final" Desolation occurs were the 9 Heralds who Miraculously survived this time decide leave Taln to suffer alone for 4000+ years since he was the only one of them to never break once.

20. Honor fully dies (could be before the "final" desolation or after we dont know for sure)

 

anything I'm missing? or we should add to the timeline?

[Deathwielded]

The way I understand it. Odium might have fanned flames of war and then chose the Singers as they are more "Passionate" than the void bringers. Thus Honor and Cultivation "sided" with the humans.

I dont think Honor and cultivation switched sides but saw Odium "corrupt" some of the Singers. We see Singers and Humans have been on both sides of the Desolations. 

[Gasper he/him]

1 hour ago, Deathwielded said:

14. the Knights Radiant were formally organized by Ishar and the Heralds became the begrudging patrons for the 10 orders. 

15. the Knight Radiant would discover the truth that the humans were the invaders and the Singers were the Original inhabitants and fear their powers could destroy Roshar just like their Ancestors destroyed Ashyn but Honor would console them and encourage them thus keeping them in line.

16. the False desolation happens were Odium and Heralds were still sealed on Braize, but Ba-ado-mishram started providing voidlight and forms of power before being sealed by a strike team of Radiants. 

17. Honer getting weaker and starts dying. This is likely due to Odium attacking Honor or the oath pact breaking so much. Probably both.

18. the Day of Recreance happens once the Knights Radiant once again discover the truth of their alien origins, but Honor is raving mad instead of helping them understand or encouraging them. 

19. the "Final" Desolation occurs were the 9 Heralds who Miraculously survived this time decide leave Taln to suffer alone for 4000+ years since he was the only one of them to never break once.

20. Honor fully dies (could be before the "final" desolation or after we dont know for sure)

The actual order of events is 14, 19, 17, 15/16, 18, 20. The Heralds had been gone for about two thousand years before the False Desolation and The Day of Recreance. We are not exactly sure when Honor croaked, but given Dalinar's visions, it is likely that he died completely after or during The Day of Recreance.

[Scion of the Mists]

This is a great timeline!  

A few minor things:

2. Ashyn's magic system was not always disease-based.  

10. Honor didn't create the Surges when he created the Honorblades.  They were a natural part of Roshar.  

11. The Oathpact only binds the Fused - Odium is bound by Honor/Cultivation directly.  

[RShara she/her]

3 hours ago, Deathwielded said:

20. Honor fully dies (could be before the "final" desolation or after we dont know for sure)

This is an awesome summary of events. I love it!

FYI, Honor definitely died *after* the Recreance, since he witnessed it and put it in his visions.

[Deathwielded]

On 4/3/2019 at 11:59 AM, Gasper said:

The actual order of events is 14, 19, 17, 15/16, 18, 20. The Heralds had been gone for about two thousand years before the False Desolation and The Day of Recreance. We are not exactly sure when Honor croaked, but given Dalinar's visions, it is likely that he died completely after or during The Day of Recreance.

We actually know that 15 Happened before the The Day of Recreance but they had Honor to reassure them. 

it was rediscovered again around the The Day of Recreance but instead of Honor reassuring them he started ranting about Ashyn being destroyed.

I will modify  the events showing the "final" desolation happened before the day of Recreance I definitely had that backwards. (I meant to show the timeline from 1- to 13 or 14 and then thought why the heck not continue with it) 

 

Edited April 4, 2019 by Deathwielded

[Deathwielded]

On 4/3/2019 at 0:34 PM, Scion of the Mists said:

This is a great timeline!  

A few minor things:

2. Ashyn's magic system was not always disease-based.  

10. Honor didn't create the Surges when he created the Honorblades.  They were a natural part of Roshar.  

11. The Oathpact only binds the Fused - Odium is bound by Honor/Cultivation directly.  

2. The Magic system wasn't always disease based sure but it is generally considered so now. So I think its still fair to say that brandon will account for what he has written and will write to make sure it makes sense.

10. Honor Created the Honorblades and the 10 surge pairings we see today. Spren were definitely there before and Fabrials likely existed already. I just mean the proto-knights radiant system of these particular 10 surges and pairings. (I will clarify though in the updated Timeline) 

11. so it was a part of what is binding him, likely him being invested there has something to do with it. WOB:

Eric

For the second letter, Rayse is captured and cannot leave the system he inhabits, Roshar. Is the fact that Odium can't leave Roshar a direct result of the Oathpact, or something else?

Brandon Sanderson

Not a direct result of the Oathpact, but the Oathpact was part of it.

Shadows of Self Chicago signing (Oct. 12, 2015)

 

 

[RShara she/her]

12 minutes ago, Deathwielded said:

11. so it was a part of what is binding him, likely him being invested there has something to do with it. WOB:

Eric

For the second letter, Rayse is captured and cannot leave the system he inhabits, Roshar. Is the fact that Odium can't leave Roshar a direct result of the Oathpact, or something else?

Brandon Sanderson

Not a direct result of the Oathpact, but the Oathpact was part of it.

Shadows of Self Chicago signing (Oct. 12, 2015)

That can be explained by the fact that the Fused contain Odium's investiture. He wouldn't want to leave the Rosharan system without gathering that up, and the Fused being bound to Braize could make it more difficult for him to reclaim that.

[Deathwielded]

corrected and updated Timeline I'm working on:

1. Singers lived peacefully on Roshar with spren and Highstorms. Fabrial's could have existed and be in use.

2. Humans lived on Ashyn and based on what we know of the Silence Divine they had a virus/bacteria based Investiture that granted powers. (it wasn't always planned to be that type of magic)

3.  Honor and Cultivation are on Roshar.

4. Odium was traveling the Cosmere Splintering shards starting with Ambition whome he wounded and chased after then took out Devotion and Dominion. (he could have ended up on Ashyn and pushed them along to destroy the planet, but we dont know if a shard was there or not and I dont see Odium needing to destroy a planet that doesnt have a shard there already)

5. the humans from Ashyn destroyed the planet using what we are calling the Dawnshards or a form of Surgebinding. (could just be using known words to refer to a lost magic system)

6. the Humans were transferred from the destroyed planet to Roshar using a not fully explained process that Brandon is still working on the mechanics of.  

7. the gods (Honor and Cultivation) told the Singers to allow the humans to live in Roshar and the Singers granted them the land now know as Shinovar.

8. we know many of the Heralds were alive on Ashyn and they were still alive when the first desolation started. 

9. Odium Invested some of the Singers to become the fused making the war un-winnable for the Humans/Voidbringers as they could essentially possess new bodies and continue fighting. Plus Thunderclasts would be difficult to defeat pre-shardblades

10. Honor Created the Honorblades (and thus the Stormlight Surges we know today that are used by the Heralds and proto-knights Radiant. Referring to the 10 pairings of powers and insuffion of Stormlight directly) and the Heralds and the Oathpact is forged. (unsure if the Honorblades were made for the first desolation or after they broke pact the first time. I think before)

11. The fused are bound to Braize by the Heralds and Odium is also bound partially by the Oathpact but largely from Honor directly. (I think Odium being invested in the fused being a part of the reason)  

12. The Oathpact doesn't hold forever as Heralds give in to the torture and the loophole in the Oathpact allows the heralds to leave thus freeing the Fused to to the same. However once the Fused are killed again the Heralds can take up the Oathpact again and the cycle of Desolations continue. the line defining sides and who is now called the voidbringers are blurred 

13. during the Desolations the Fused learn how to use voidbinding to combat the Herald's use of Surges and the first non-herald humans starting bonding True Spren who mimicked the Honorblade's use of Surges to help in the fight.

14. the Knights Radiant were formally organized by Ishar and the Heralds became the begrudging patrons for the 10 orders. 

15. the Knight Radiant would discover the truth that the humans were the invaders and the Singers were the Original inhabitants and fear their powers could destroy Roshar just like their Ancestors destroyed Ashyn, but Honor would console them and encourage them thus keeping them in line.

16. Honer getting weaker and starts dying. This is likely due to Odium attacking Honor or the Oathpact being broken so much. Probably both.

17. the "Final" Desolation occurs were the 9 Heralds who miraculously survived this time decide leave Taln to suffer alone for 4000+ years since he was the only one of them to never break once.

18. the False desolation happens were Odium and Taln were still sealed on Braize, but Ba-Ado-Mishram started providing voidlight and forms of power to the Singers before being sealed by a strike team of Radiants. 

19. the Day of Recreance happens once the Knights Radiant once again discover the truth of their alien origins, but Honor is raving mad instead of helping them understand or reassuring them. 

20. Honor creates the Visions and charges the Stormfather to grant them to someone worthy and then fully dies. 

Edited April 4, 2019 by Deathwielded

[Karger he/him]

On 4/4/2019 at 1:47 PM, Deathwielded said:

1. Singers lived peacefully on Roshar with spren and Highstorms. Fabrial's could have existed and be in use.

We actually know next to nothing about pre human singer society.

On 4/4/2019 at 1:47 PM, Deathwielded said:

virus/bacteria based Investiture that granted powers

Not yet.  Before the exodus magic on Ashyn was different.

3-20 look mostly good