Awakening: The Dark Art

[Karger he/him]

Awakening could make an item that heals the way Nightblood destroys.  I think we would all consider such an item good.

[CosmereScholar]

To clarify, I am not saying Awakening cannot do good, or that Awakeners are evil. Just that it is the most nefarious magic as an influence on society.

[Calderis he/him]

Just going to say that I may be wrong about Hemalurgy and medallions in the specifics... But if the "excisors" that are needed for medallion creation aren't Hemalurgy Brandon is a ridiculous troll. 

There is no way that it's going to become outdated and disappear, there far to much setup laid for it. 

That said, I don't believe that any magic, much like any shard is evil. It's all in how you use it. Hemalurgy has some major disadvantages, but I think those can be mitigated. 

On breath... There's nothing stopping it from being coerced or tortured from people. It can't be "stolen" by "voluntary" is a relative term here. 

All in all, awakening can be good, it can be bad. I don't think it is inherently sinister. 

[Inky]

I mean what else could the Excisors be if not Hemalurgic spikes? 

[CosmereScholar]

49 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Just going to say that I may be wrong about Hemalurgy and medallions in the specifics... But if the "excisors" that are needed for medallion creation aren't Hemalurgy Brandon is a ridiculous troll. 

Have you not been paying attention? Sanderson totally is trolling us! Just look at things like Elhokar’s execution in Oathbringer, and Kaladin failing to say the fourth oath in the same novel. Sanderson really likes to shock his readers sometimes.

That being said, I do not believe the Excisors use Hemalurgy, suggestive though their name is. There was just too much buildup in Bands if Morning on the Theory of Investiture and Identity, and we know that the Bands could definiately be used to craft medallions. I see no reason for some other development.

Aside from which, I do not think Hemalugy could make medallions. It grafts souls, but requires very specific bind points to work. Suggesting the amulets are like spikes seems to contradict this.

Edited March 18, 2019 by CosmereScholar

[Inky]

Where are you getting the Identity to use multiple powers from without using Hemalurgy? I have my doubts that you can take Identity out of F-Aluminum considering that... it's aluminum. It nullifies all Investiture that it interacts with. And the medallions aren't like spikes, but their creation process probably involves Hemalurgy

Edited March 18, 2019 by Inky

[+robardin he/him]

3 hours ago, CosmereScholar said:

But, we know that

This implies the Lifeless are pretty aware. Though I admit I would find it creepy even if they weren't. 

Whoa, that particular annotation never sank in properly until you bolded it for me. They don’t realize it, but the Lifeless are far more aware than everyone assumes. Clod in this book is a foreshadowing of that... Where we elsewhere learn that Clod is a reanimated Arsteel, one of the Five Scholars that went way back with Vasher and thus also a Returned (in life).

Now remember that the way Vasher dealt with the Lifeless horde set upon the Idrians by Bluefingers' machinations was to send his stone-bound golems to destroy them.

Unlucky.

[Calderis he/him]

@CosmereScholar

I'd like to think that I've been paying very close attention, and everything points in the opposite direction to me. Everything about the medallions points to an upcoming ethical quandary for the north to me, starting very very quickly. 

The end of Secret history, and the re-emergence of Spook's book speak far to clearly that Hemalurgy isn't dead. Add in that we've been told outright that eventually Hemalurgy will be seen off of Scadrial means the knowledge of it needs to grow. 

Don't get me wrong, Awakening can be far far darker than people give it credit for. I have no disagreement there. Just like I don't think Edgli is as benevolent as people want to believe her Shard's name suggests, or that Awakening is limited to what we've seen. 

Awakening is seemingly the "youngest" magic system in term so of exploration and knowledge. It's practitioners know it far less intimately than most, save perhaps Roshar, and that more an issue of loss of knowledge. 

But I don't think that any of the systems will ever be "obsolete." Especially not on Scadrial. They've been created to interplay. Removing one factor does nothing but limit the magic. And in my opinion, without Hemalurgy there would be no medallions. I find it far to convenient that the number of powers limited to a medallion, and the number of spikes a person is limited to before Harmony can take control are the same. 

And before you point to the bands as breaking that, there is a very simple explanation for them that falls perfectly in line with the style of their creator. They're a trick. They're a single power "medallion" that grants Nicrosil Feruchemy. Everything else in them is just storage. 

I absolutely think Brandon is pulling tricks on us, and I don't believe for a moment I've caught close to everything... But for Hemalurgy to be introduced and barely skimmed in Era 1, then teased in Era 2, only to then be replaced by a "free" magic does not fit at all. Brandon's always been more interested in costs and limitations than in the powers themselves... And to remove Hemalurgy from the Metallic Arts removes one of the things that allows it be be its most versatile, and it's most costly. 

Edited March 18, 2019 by Calderis

[CosmereScholar]

I hope I have not offended you, I was speaking in jest. I agree Hemalurgy is far from obsolete. It will be a very powerful tool in future series.

Perhaps you are right. I had not considered the bands might be a trick. But, in either case, with Ettmetal, magic will be a lot more free in the future.

[Ripheus23]

Apocalypse plot-twist: a Nalthian on Ashyn becomes a Drab so he can get immune-deficient enough to cultivate an exotic microbe that has the power to defeat Odiautombitruin.*

EDIT: Odiautombitruinominion.

Edited March 18, 2019 by Ripheus23

[Calderis he/him]

9 minutes ago, CosmereScholar said:

I hope I have not offended you, I was speaking in jest. I agree Hemalurgy is far from obsolete. It will be a very powerful tool in future series.

Perhaps you are right. I had not considered the bands might be a trick. But, in either case, with Ettmetal, magic will be a lot more free in the future.

No offense taken. I just have a tendency to be overzealous when it comes to anything Cosmere 

[Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him]

47 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Don't get me wrong, Awakening can be far far darker than people give it credit for. I have no disagreement there. Just like I don't think Edgli is as benevolent as people want to believe her Shard's name suggests, or that Awakening is limited to what we've seen. 

Awakening is seemingly the "youngest" magic system in term so of exploration and knowledge. It's practitioners know it far less intimately than most, save perhaps Roshar, and that more an issue of loss of knowledge. 

I'm going to leave the discussion of Hemalurgy to another thread save to say that Scadrian knowledge of it doesn't need to grow for greater Cosmere knowledge to spread. There is another Shard contending with Harmony for Scadrial now who has already made use of it with Paalm. If that Shard is indeed Autonomy who is seemingly all over the Cosmere, that could be enough. Plus... worldhoppers. 

I disagree with the terms evil or nefarious for Awakening, I mean they are actually just synonyms, so switching to the other doesn't really change what you're saying. Maybe "pernicious" is the best word for it? Gradual/subtly harmful? 

Yes you can coerce or torture breaths from someone, but that is a separate evil for the purposes of power, not a "normal" part of either the magic system or the economics of Breath on Nalthis. 

I don't think any of the Shards are really benevolent, they are all divorced from any benevolence that Adonalsium may have possessed, though some seem to have benevolent tendencies, and I think that Endowment is one such. 

I also agree that Awakening is not limited to what we've seen. I mean Vasher manages to Awaken a living person to a degree. He endows breath on her, uses commands and her memories are altered. If he can do that, then there is TONS of potential in awakening that has barely scratched the surface. 

Edited March 18, 2019 by Green Hoodie Mistborn

[Calderis he/him]

I didn't call it either evil, or nefarious. I said it can be darker than than it seems... And as I said earlier u. The thread that all comes down to who is using it and how. 

As to Edgli... I don't believe we've seen anywhere near enough to judge her, benevolent or otherwise. 

[Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him]

4 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I didn't call it either evil, or nefarious. I said it can be darker than than it seems... And as I said earlier u. The thread that all comes down to who is using it and how. 

As to Edgli... I don't believe we've seen anywhere near enough to judge her, benevolent or otherwise. 

That specific comment was more for @CosmereScholar and their comment at the top of the page, sorry to conflate you in that response!

I don't think that Awakening itself is darker than other magic systems. It is a tool, just like a gun and can be used for good and evil by the people using it.

To break it down into two sections: 

1. The Gaining:
   1. Hemalurgy as we have seen it practiced and from Harmony's perspective "always" requires death from the donor. That makes it pretty evil. Per WoB, even if someone isn't killed in Hemalurgy, they are left in "worse condition [than a drab]". This theft is the defining feature of Hemalurgy
   2. Awakening, requires the voluntary surrender of your breath and you become a drab, but are paid for the loss. Society/Economic disparities may make portions of this exchange dark, and certainly evil people can force your hand to "volunteer" your Breath, but that is extrinsic to the system of Awakening itself. 
2. The Use:
   1. Hemalurgy twists the recipient physically and mentally and also creates holes in their mind/soul to be controlled. The powers granted by Hemalurgy are just a tool to be used based on the will of the recipient (unless controlled or Koloss!).
   2. Awakening is just a tool once Breath is transferred, use depends on the morality of the user

That is my perspective on the two systems and their relative "dark" or evilness. I won't begin to throw discussions about Surgebinding requiring people to be broken mentally or spiritually to a degree in order to allow a Spren to Bond! That's a pretty dark requirement for "Gaining" as well, but more specific to individuals so hard to suss out. 

My POV of Edgli, which as an original Vessel means that her personality has probably been overpowered by the Shard's at this point, is based on what we have seen of her. She endows all people on Nalthis with enough investiture to improve their health above a normal persons. She purposefully splinters part of her power to create Returned to go back to the world to try and prevent certain events/catastrophe's from happening. And in general "endowment" generally evokes positive connotations. At least for me. 

[Calderis he/him]

42 minutes ago, Green Hoodie Mistborn said:

I don't think that Awakening itself is darker than other magic systems. It is a tool, just like a gun and can be used for good and evil by the people using it.

I agree. For all magic. 

42 minutes ago, Green Hoodie Mistborn said:

Hemalurgy as we have seen it practiced and from Harmony's perspective "always" requires death from the donor. That makes it pretty evil. Per WoB, even if someone isn't killed in Hemalurgy, they are left in "worse condition [than a drab]". This theft is the defining feature of Hemalurgy

"as we have seen it" has been solely in the hands of villains. It could just as easily be used voluntarily, especially at the end of life, to pass abilities on. It's how it's chosen to be used. 

42 minutes ago, Green Hoodie Mistborn said:

Awakening, requires the voluntary surrender of your breath and you become a drab, but are paid for the loss. Society/Economic disparities may make portions of this exchange dark, and certainly evil people can force your hand to "volunteer" your Breath, but that is extrinsic to the system of Awakening itself. 

The coercion aspect of giving breath is no more external to the system than the payment you use to paint it positively. That is cultural, not the magic. 

Someone says the command and becomes a drab. Someone else gains a breath. Nothing more and nothing less. 

42 minutes ago, Green Hoodie Mistborn said:

Hemalurgy twists the recipient physically and mentally and also creates holes in their mind/soul to be controlled. The powers granted by Hemalurgy are just a tool to be used based on the will of the recipient (unless controlled or Koloss!).

Only if a spike is actually placed in a person. As the Metallic Arts turn toward tech, I don't think this will apply, and I already think these problems are bypassed by medallions 

42 minutes ago, Green Hoodie Mistborn said:

I won't begin to throw discussions about Surgebinding requiring people to be broken mentally or spiritually to a degree in order to allow a Spren to Bond! That's a pretty dark requirement for "Gaining" as well, but more specific to individuals so hard to suss out.

This is both overblown in SA... And Cosmere constant. The threshold just varies. This is precisely what snapping is. And it doesn't even have to be negative. You can snap from overwhelming joy. Positive emotions at those extremes are just rarer. 

Ascribing the endowment of individual Breath to all Nalthians to Edgli is an error in my opinion. That is a part of the magic system itself, and those occur as a natural outgrowth between the Shard and the Planet. It's possible that Edgli did nudge things in that direction, but it's just as possible that that is just the way the system developed. 

[Karger he/him]

5 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I won't begin to throw discussions about Surgebinding requiring people to be broken mentally or spiritually to a degree in order to allow a Spren to Bond! That's a pretty dark requirement for "Gaining" as well, but more specific to individuals so hard to suss out.

Tien was confirmed as a lightweaver and he seems pretty happy most of the time.  The gap in his soul was something else.

[Calderis he/him]

16 minutes ago, Karger said:

Tien was confirmed as a lightweaver and he seems pretty happy most of the time.  The gap in his soul was something else.

Well yes and no... We never see him outside of Kaladin's PoV, and Kaladin fell for Shallan's happy act too, so... 

Additionally, the idea that people need to be anywhere near as broken as people regularly try to suggest is ludicrous. 

And for future reference, when you quote something that someone else quoted, there's no notification to the person who actually said it. So even though you were responding to something @Green Hoodie Mistborn said, it pinged me... 

[Karger he/him]

Oops

[Fezzik]

4 hours ago, Green Hoodie Mistborn said:

Vasher manages to Awaken a living person to a degree. He endows breath on her, uses commands and her memories are altered. If he can do that, then there is TONS of potential in awakening that has barely scratched the surface. 

*He* did not. He whispered something to her, and told her to repeat it back, and *mean it*. He got her to use awakening on herself. Which, in my opinion, is way more impressive.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

On 3/18/2019 at 8:52 PM, robardin said:

Now remember that the way Vasher dealt with the Lifeless horde set upon the Idrians by Bluefingers' machinations was to send his stone-bound golems to destroy them.

Close to mass murder and treason actually. I don't understand why Vasher is so adored. Frankly the man is a peacenik terrorist, who kills his friends for political reasons.

20 hours ago, Calderis said:

The coercion aspect of giving breath is no more external to the system than the payment you use to paint it positively. That is cultural, not the magic. 

Someone says the command and becomes a drab. Someone else gains a breath. Nothing more and nothing less.

Exactly. It would also work if you tortured them into giving up their breath. Or got them high on drugs. Paying them is just the simplest way.

[Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him]

26 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Exactly. It would also work if you tortured them into giving up their breath. Or got them high on drugs. Paying them is just the simplest way.

Yes, payment and coercion are both external to the magic system, which I think only reinforces my point that BioChromatic magic is not dark or nefarious or evil or whatever terms people want to use for it. it is the simple passing of investiture from one person to another. Payment is the simplest, most common, and humane way to engage in the passing of investiture. 

On the complete opposite side of that spectrum however, we have Hemalurgy. The magic system, that to even use to pass investiture from one person to another, requires you to kill or rip/tear the soul of someone to the point that they become worse than a Drab (again, per WoB).

If @Calderis is correct about Hemalurgy being the foundation of Southern Scadrian medallions/tech I'm going to be pretty disappointed. My feeling in reading the Era 2 stuff is that the tech is being set up in opposition to Hemalurgy and that Hemalurgy is going to Sith fade into the background with the Set until Era 3 when we get the Mistborn Serial killer. That's my hope. I suppose we shall see though!

[+Oltux72 he/him]

Just now, Green Hoodie Mistborn said:

it is the simple passing of investiture from one person to another. Payment is the simplest, most common, and humane way to engage in the passing of investiture.

Yes. However, it is based on a human component. It is by no means unique in that. Yet calling it darker than, for example, AonDor, is a case you can easily make. It is just calling it darkest of the dark, where things get strange.

Just now, Green Hoodie Mistborn said:

On the complete opposite side of that spectrum however, we have Hemalurgy. The magic system, that to even use to pass investiture from one person to another, requires you to kill or rip/tear the soul of someone to the point that they become worse than a Drab (again, per WoB).

If @Calderis is correct about Hemalurgy being the foundation of Southern Scadrian medallions/tech I'm going to be pretty disappointed. My feeling in reading the Era 2 stuff is that the tech is being set up in opposition to Hemalurgy and that Hemalurgy is going to Sith fade into the background with the Set until Era 3 when we get the Mistborn Serial killer. That's my hope. I suppose we shall see though!

It is very hard to see how you would get nicrosil feruchemy without either a full feruchemist or hemalurgy. And all the bands use nicrosil.
Lastly, the potential of hemalurgy may very well be unknown, as well as untapped. How far can you alter an organism? Hemalurgic immortality? Telepathy?

[twenty second of the sun]

On 3/18/2019 at 2:35 PM, CosmereScholar said:

Have you not been paying attention? Sanderson totally is trolling us! Just look at things like Elhokar’s execution in Oathbringer, and Kaladin failing to say the fourth oath in the same novel. Sanderson really likes to shock his readers sometimes.

That being said, I do not believe the Excisors use Hemalurgy, suggestive though their name is. There was just too much buildup in Bands if Morning on the Theory of Investiture and Identity, and we know that the Bands could definiately be used to craft medallions. I see no reason for some other development.

Aside from which, I do not think Hemalugy could make medallions. It grafts souls, but requires very specific bind points to work. Suggesting the amulets are like spikes seems to contradict this.

I believe their is something called a spoiler alert right ?

[twenty second of the sun]

On 3/19/2019 at 4:23 PM, Oltux72 said:

Close to mass murder and treason actually. I don't understand why Vasher is so adored. Frankly the man is a peacenik terrorist, who kills his friends for political reasons.

Exactly. It would also work if you tortured them into giving up their breath. Or got them high on drugs. Paying them is just the simplest way.

His reasons were valid and in doing so he saved countless lives and prevented a multi generational conflict form forming

[Fezzik]

5 hours ago, twenty second of the sun said:

I believe their is something called a spoiler alert right ?

Yes. It is posted at the top of this forum. Every book is valid. Once a new book comes out, there is a period of several months where all spoilers from that book have to be put in spoiler tags, but no books are still in that period.