Book 2 speculation *Spoilers*

[LightReader she/her]

Renarin showed a particular interest in Navani's new fabrial, and Dalinar reflected on how he hoped Renarin would join the Ardentia because it would allow him to study things like engineering and pursue his intellectual interests. Renarin does not like to admit his interest in these areas because they are considered feminine pursuits.

[king of nowhere]

There's something else I'm considering.

At the end of the book, the king of karbranth mentions that he's going to send szeth against dalinar. he'll proibably do so in book 2.

Now, given what we saw of szeth, he will abide the order or die trying. there are two obstacles to killing dalinar. one is kaladin, the other is dalinar himself. both of them stand a decent chance against szeth. the point is, if it came to such a fight, at least one of the three has to die. Except that I don't see any of them as being a goner. all of them have open stories that are unlikely to be fulfilled in the next book. I mean, kaladin and dalinar both have a long way to go and have been established as main characters of the series. Not the kind that will die in book 2. And szeth, why give him all those points of view if it was only to get him killed like that? if his place in the plot was just that of an assassin that would kill some kings and then die at the hand of the protagonist?

So I see this fight as either not taking place in book 2, or szeth rebelling and breacking his oath on the climax. That's where I think his story is pointing.

I wonder what will happen to his poweers in this case. breaking theoath could be a disonorable action, but then again it would be the honorable option since his oaths are being exploited to do evil. Anyway I'm really curious to see how the three characters will interact.

[Roamer]

I wonder what will happen to his poweers in this case. breaking theoath could be a disonorable action, but then again it would be the honorable option since his oaths are being exploited to do evil. Anyway I'm really curious to see how the three characters will interact.

I don't think someone needs to be honorable to access power through the spren bond. In one of Dalinar's visions Nohadon mentions that not all spren are as discerning as honorspren. Shallan has proven to be dishonorable in a few instances, but since her bond is developing with a truthspren (seemingly), her lack of honor doesn't affect her developing power.

I do think we are going to see Szeth reject stone shamanism at some point and break free of his oathstone though. I think he will battle Kaladin, Adolin and Dalinar, but will be wounded to the point he has to retreat. He would never allow himself to be killed if he were wounded to the point he knew he could not complete his mission. That would release him from the pain he is meant to suffer as truthless and I don't think he would allow that to happen if he could avoid it.

[kari-no-sugata]

There's something else I'm considering.

At the end of the book, the king of karbranth mentions that he's going to send szeth against dalinar. he'll proibably do so in book 2.

Now, given what we saw of szeth, he will abide the order or die trying. there are two obstacles to killing dalinar. one is kaladin, the other is dalinar himself. both of them stand a decent chance against szeth. the point is, if it came to such a fight, at least one of the three has to die. Except that I don't see any of them as being a goner. all of them have open stories that are unlikely to be fulfilled in the next book. I mean, kaladin and dalinar both have a long way to go and have been established as main characters of the series. Not the kind that will die in book 2. And szeth, why give him all those points of view if it was only to get him killed like that? if his place in the plot was just that of an assassin that would kill some kings and then die at the hand of the protagonist?

So I see this fight as either not taking place in book 2, or szeth rebelling and breacking his oath on the climax. That's where I think his story is pointing.

Szeth's mind/soul is clearly beginning to break under the strain - his religion/honor is forcing him to continuously do things he considers to be heinous. He's crying in combat, he hates himself and wants to die, he's blaming his victims for not being able to kill him and hears the screams of his dead victims in his head.

I would say Szeth is already "insane" by the end of the book but not yet "broken".

He could break and decide to no longer obey his oathstone and live with the guilt. He could break and lose all his morals, turning into an uncaring killing machine. Or his insanity will make him weak enough that he gets killed.

All hints from Brandon have suggested that book 2 will be mostly set at the Shattered Plains, so unless only a few weeks pass within in entire book, Szeth should definitely show up. It's pretty much a "promise to the readers" too. However, it's also been strongly hinted that both Szeth and Dalinar are major characters for the overall series - basically, neither can die in book 2.

If Szeth doesn't break then if he fails to kill Dalinar he will try again. He can't kill himself or allow himself to be killed and given how strong he is, it's unlikely he'll face anything so dangerous that it would be "suicide" to try - meaning I dont see how he could be "persuaded" to flee without killing Dalinar first. In other words, when Szeth attacks the only realistic seeming options are: he kills Dalinar and escapes or he is killed... or... maybe he is captured.

If he gets captured then he wouldn't be able to kill anyone and also nobody would be able to order him to do anything since they wouldn't have his oathstone. He'd probably be a bit relieved! (Why would Dalinar and co want to capture him though? To question him of course)

How could Szeth be captured? Some "random" (unexpected) element surprises him. That could be Kaladin. Or Dalinar if his powers start to develop. Or Jasnah (or Shallan's) inherent soul-casting ability (though he might need to run out of Stormlight first). Or Shallan's Shardblade (since no woman would be expected to have one).

I'm very much expecting Shallan to draw her Shardblade at some "dramatic" moment. Rather than ordinary "foreshadowing" the amount and obviousness of the hints suggests to me that Brandon wants the foreshadowing to be obvious enough so that it's definitely not a "deus ex machina" when she finally pulls it out.

[king of nowhere]

intersting ideas, I hadn't considered the "capture" option. it could easily happen if szeth takes a blow to the head and loses consciousness, or if he's disarmed and runs out of stormlight. also shallan and hasnah may do something. I wonder, since you can soulcast air to stone and make buildings, if you can soulcast air to metal to iinstantly create a cage around an enemy.

[Roamer]

I considered the capture option, but as cool as it would be it seems unlikely. How do you disarm someone with a shardblade? How can you confine someone with a shardblade to any type of captivity?

On second thought I guess that depends on how summoning works. Does one need to have a hand free in order to summon a blade? If so maybe szeth could have fingerless iron gauntlets strapped to his forearms/hands that would prevent him from grasping his blade when it is summoned.

[CrazyRioter she/her]

you do need to be able to move your hands to summon the Blade, so restraining his hands would work yeah.

[Smidge]

I considered the capture option, but as cool as it would be it seems unlikely. How do you disarm someone with a shardblade? How can you confine someone with a shardblade to any type of captivity?

On second thought I guess that depends on how summoning works. Does one need to have a hand free in order to summon a blade? If so maybe szeth could have fingerless iron gauntlets strapped to his forearms/hands that would prevent him from grasping his blade when it is summoned.

Yeah it seems like binding their hands would stop them summoning a shardblade, but even if it doesn't, surely by keeping the person completely bound up to restrict movement there'd be no way they could actually manipulate the blade into freeing themselves. It would be very unpleasant, but ultimately it should be possible to keep someone with a shardblade captive.

Though how Szeth could actually be captured is hard to imagine... With a shardblade and stormlight he could cut and fly his way out of any sort of trap, he has the sense to retreat when he can't win and can fly away if he needs to, and unless Brandon uses that dumb hollywood 'if someone takes a head blow they fall unconscious' there isn't exactly an easy way to subdue someone as dangerous as Szeth. Though I wonder at the effectiveness of putting a full lashing on a net or sheet before throwing (or basic lashing) it at someone - it'd stick them all together and even if they tried to cut it away, the pieces would still stick to them. Short of tugging at it until the stormlight is overcome or a lot of careful cutting I don't think anyone would free themselves of it easily, provided it had enough stormlight to take a while to run out with people pulling at it. Heck, this might even be a good way of dealing with people in shardplate, though they're really strong so it could take a lot of stormlight in the full lashing to be able to hold for a while.

[kari-no-sugata]

Szeth's biggest advantage is that he knows how to use Stormlight but nobody he's fought so far does.

But, if Kaladin gets involved with fighting him and notices Szeth using Stormlight then he could target any spheres Szeth is carrying and also tell everyone to take spheres away from the fight so Szeth can't "reload".

If Szeth runs out of Stormlight and can't get any more then he'd be relatively easy to defeat if surrounded by enemies. He wouldn't be able to run away either, unless there's no Shardbearers left alive.

Also, if Szeth runs out of Stormlight then Jasnah (or Shallan) could use remote Soulcasting to capture/disable/kill him... though I'm sure Jasnah would prefer to capture him alive for questioning.

Edited July 20, 2012 by kari-no-sugata

[hoser he/him]

At the risk of repeating points made elsewhere and building on kari-no-sugata's comment, Kaladin really has all the pieces to mount an effective defence:

1. He knows that infused gems are just windrunner super-power-ups.
   
2. His own windrunner abilities could be used.
   
3. He will be learning more about windrunner powers with the Bridge 4 experiments.
   
4. He is responsible for Dalinar's safety.
   
5. With Gavilar's fate and Szeth's recent rampage, the "Assassin in White" will be one of the foremost dangers, and he could be briefed (lengthened?) on Gavilar's opponent and the Veden king and highprince opponent.
   
6. He saw Szeth in action during his highstorm dream.
   
7. Responsible for Dalinar's safety, he would logically be working on Shardblade and Shardplate defenses.
   
8. Szeth is tasked with acting publicly, so whatever defenses Kaladin envisions will likely be active.
   

What will Kaladin do?

1. Limiting the stormlight available seems like an excellent idea
   
2. Presumably there is already a watch for Shin entering the Shattered Plains encampment, but extra attention given an understanding of windrunner powers or spren (if they can recruit more) enhancing the entry checkpoint(s) could allow them to detect Szeth smuggling himself into the camps. Ambushing Szeth seems like it would make it easier to run him out of stormlight.
   
3. Learning more about his windrunner powers and training bridge 4 in countermeasures seems helpful.
   
4. If Dalinar and Adolin become aware of his abilities, many interesting scenarios pop up (more if Shallan/Jasnah get to the Shattered Plains before Szeth): Kaladin practicing with shardplate that glows telltale blue, Adolin practicing against a windrunner, others getting in touch with their radiant powers and being able to help, at least by draining spheres.
   

How can Szeth be captured/turned?

1. A dilemma where he is forced to violate the conditions of his sentence (not give up sword, not kill self) and he cracks.
   
2. Loss of belief in Stone Shamanism.
   
3. He is resigned to the world ending soon at the hands of the voidbringers. If he saw a possibility of effectively acting to stop the voidbringers, he might be enlisted.
   
4. Kaladin sets up a situation where he gets stranded without stormlight, and Adolin (or Renarin?!) in Shardplate drops his Shardblade to capture him by breaking his arms or something similar (this one is my second favorite).
   
5. The awesome thing that BS will actually do (my favorite).
   

Obviously, there are problems:

1. The alethi nobility's death wish-like adoption of more and more fabrials
   
2. Kaladin's status and antagonism toward lighteyes in general
   
3. Adolin's antipathy toward Kaladin
   
4. Kaladin's ignorance about his own powers
   
5. The short time before Szeth arrives
   

Brandon has assembled so many juicy ingredients that I can't wait to see what he cooks up.

Edited July 21, 2012 by hoser

[Aeshdan he/him]

I don't think someone needs to be honorable to access power through the spren bond. In one of Dalinar's visions Nohadon mentions that not all spren are as discerning as honorspren. Shallan has proven to be dishonorable in a few instances, but since her bond is developing with a truthspren (seemingly), her lack of honor doesn't affect her developing power.

This assumes that truthspren are not honorspren, still an open question in TSA. Please pay attention.

[Windrunner he/him]

Well Reader, I think that if we never made any assumptions at all then theorizing would be extremely difficult to do. We wouldn't be able to say basically anything about the TSA since so little is explained, even in a book of such massive size. Guessing that truthspren are not classified as honorspren seems to be a pretty safe bet to me. They don't seem to care at all about Shallan's lies, theft, or the murder that she's committed. None of those things seem to be very honorable, so I doubt a honorspren would have remained bonded to her or even bonded in the first place.

[Shivertongue he/him]

This assumes that truthspren are not honorspren, still an open question in TSA. Please pay attention.

I had no idea this was an open question until now. With every little scrap of info from interviews and speculation and wild theories and the like that is out there, it's easy to miss something - I know for a fact that I haven't read every single interview or random little question that has an answer that's sent speculators into a tizzy. I don't have time to read it all, and I'm guessing neither do many others.

This isn't a matter of not paying attention so much as it is simply missing a piece of the puzzle, and might I remind everyone that we don't even know how many pieces there are, or which of them are actually ones we need. If we didn't make assumptions, we'd have no theories, and if we had no theories, there'd be nothing to make assumptions from.

[king of nowhere]

I don't think szeth would ever run away from a trap. he's looking for a way to die without breaking his oath, and he's been hoping for an opponent capable of killing him all the time. so, if they set a trap on him, he'd charge headfirst, hoping that it will kill him.

Also for capturing him there are many ways already established by other posters. I have another idea that would end up with him captive: his back is broken. that would leave him paralyzed, and allow to capture him. stormlight would eventually heal him, but he could be restrained just by denying it to him.

[Vortaan he/him]

... Anyone else fearing a possible Shallan/Kaladin romance? They aren't far apart in age...

[Kenshu Ani]

... Anyone else fearing a possible Shallan/Kaladin romance? They aren't far apart in age...

I don't see that happening. Kaladin has too many issues with lighteyes that would need to be resolved first.

[Inkthinker]

I don't see that happening. Kaladin has too many issues with lighteyes that would need to be resolved first.

Which would be a sign of character growth. It's already begun by him meeting a lighteyes with true honor, Dalinar.

[Vortaan he/him]

Which would be a sign of character growth. It's already begun by him meeting a lighteyes with true honor, Dalinar.

Which probably doesn't end well for either of them, if it does happen. However they will almost definitely interact to start piecing together the KR connections.

[FeatherWriter she/her]

I had no idea this was an open question until now.

I think I might actually have been the first one to bring up this point. Back in my Honor Shattered Like Adonalsium thread, I mentioned my theory that there were ten types of honorspren, one for each order. Therefore Syl would actually be a more specific type. Here's the quote:

This theory is backed up by the likely assumption the the spren which follow Shallan are Truthspren, because truth is an honorable action. It's undermined a bit by the fact that Syl calls herself an Honorspren, because if one of the mini-shards was also Honor, that seems a bit redundant; like one of the 16 shards turning out to also be called Adonalsium. I suppose that the "bondable" types of spren could all be called Honorspren, and in actuality Syl is a more specific type within that category. (She is still kind of figuring all this out, so it's possible that she just picked up on the Honorspren thing and not that she's the kind of Honorspren who does Windrunning).

...

The last column [of the Ars Arcanum] "Primary/Secondary Divine Attributes" looks exactly like what I was talking about: different aspects of Honor. Shallan's soulcasting is likely essence number six, blood, for quite a few reasons (the first thing she soulcast was blood, the terms creative and honest describe her well) and this lines up with the wierd symbol-headed spren being truthspren. So because Kaladin's Windrunning - most likely based on the first essence, Zephyr - this would make Syl some kind of leadershipspren or protectionspren.

I know there's lots of people who disagree with me on this, but I still support the "Honorspren is a General Term" theory. Wonder if I should make a formal theory thread for that?

Reader's response was rather curt though. Shiver and Windrunner are right: there's no way everyone could keep up with everything. I know I certainly don't! No one should be chided for missing a piece of information or not being up-to-date on the latest theories. Just be polite about it.

EDIT: Formatting

Edited July 27, 2012 by FeatherWriter

[king of nowhere]

... Anyone else fearing a possible Shallan/Kaladin romance? They aren't far apart in age...

I don't see them interacting, and even if they were to start talking to each other, I don't see them having much in common.

I realize the same could be said of vin and elend, so I will not all it completely impossible, just very unlikely.

Now that I think of it, both of them grew up almost secluded from the other sex: shallan in her house, kaladin in the army. they may have a crush for each other just for the sheer novelty of having someone of the opposite gender to sstay with, but I don't see much there.

[Vikter]

I think I might actually have been the first one to bring up this point. Back in my Honor Shattered Like Adonalsium thread, I mentioned my theory that there were ten types of honorspren, one for each order. Therefore Syl would actually be a more specific type. Here's the quote:

I think you might be on to something here. If Syl were to have a specific name I would have to go with Protectionspren. That is what seems to be her main focus, it is what made her stay with Kalidan in the beginning. She states at one point it was how Kalidan sought out and protected the weak under aged and under trained soldiers in the army to protect them that piqued her curiosity. If Honorspren do have subtypes she is without a doubt Protectionspren.

Of course this only raises another question of what are the rest of the catagories of Honorspren we have Truthspren and (if I am correct) Protectionspren. Others that might make sense would Loyaltyspren? Justicespren? Fidelityspren? That's all I can think up right now, maybe none of those would stick. Anyone else have any names?

[Uduak]

I don't see them interacting, and even if they were to start talking to each other, I don't see them having much in common.

I realize the same could be said of vin and elend, so I will not all it completely impossible, just very unlikely.

Now that I think of it, both of them grew up almost secluded from the other sex: shallan in her house, kaladin in the army. they may have a crush for each other just for the sheer novelty of having someone of the opposite gender to sstay with, but I don't see much there.

I would really keep myself out of this love theories for now, because the charachters w are talking about didn't even met so we have no basis, so they're more likely fantasies right? Like the fact that i want Shallan with Kal and not with Adolin cause i don't like him

I think I might actually have been the first one to bring up this point. Back in my Honor Shattered Like Adonalsium thread, I mentioned my theory that there were ten types of honorspren, one for each order. Therefore Syl would actually be a more specific type. Here's the quote:

I know there's lots of people who disagree with me on this, but I still support the "Honorspren is a General Term" theory. Wonder if I should make a formal theory thread for that?

Reader's response was rather curt though. Shiver and Windrunner are right: there's no way everyone could keep up with everything. I know I certainly don't! No one should be chided for missing a piece of information or not being up-to-date on the latest theories. Just be polite about ally be a more specific type. Here's the quote:

specific type. Here's the quote:

This theory is backed up by the likely assumption the the spren which follow Shallan are Truthspren, because truth is an honorable action. It's undermined a bit by the fact that Syl calls herself an Honorspren, because if one of the mini-shards was also Honor, that seems a bit redundant; like one of the 16 shards turning out to also be called Adonalsium. I suppose that the "bondable" types of spren could all be called Honorspren, and in actuality Syl is a more specific type within that category. (She is still kind of figuring all this out, so it's possible that she just picked up on the Honorspren thing and not that she's the kind of Honorspren who does Windrunning).

...

The last column [of the Ars Arcanum] "Primary/Secondary Divine Attributes" looks exactly like what I was talking about: different aspects of Honor. Shallan's soulcasting is likely essence number six, blood, for quite a few reasons (the first thing she soulcast was blood, the terms creative and honest describe her well) and this lines up with the wierd symbol-headed spren being truthspren. So because Kaladin's Windrunning - most likely based on the first essence, Zephyr - this would make Syl some kind of leadershipspren or protectionspren.

I know there's lots of people who disagree with me on this, but I still support the "Honorspren is a General Term" theory. Wonder if I should make a formal theory thread for that?

How can Honorspren be a general term, in dalinar's vision you can clearly understand that there are Surgebinding spren and that honorsprens are a subcategory because not everyone has a honorspren , but they still have a spren. But what i don't understand it's that later he says(nohadon) " there are princes,kings, Surgebinders, Soulcasters" why he distinguish Soulcasting from Surgebinders, are The truth spren not included in the Nahel Bond? And the Soulcasting isn't a Surge? Maybe you don't need to establish a bond with the spren to Soulcaster, I remeber that when Shallan first Soulcasted she didn't even talk with the sprens, while Kaladin powers started to show after Syl appearance,unintentionally sure but still true. But Shallan was able to see them befor they talked to them saying Who are you? Maybe it works in a different way for each type of spren, or Perhaps even for each spren(Maybe they are all unique in a way)

Edit: Or maybe there's no general term . i rember that Syl says " I Surgebing things" so maybe the Surgebinding sprens don't have to be only honor spren. We don't even know if the other orders actually have other powers.

Edited July 27, 2012 by Tel'Aral

[Vortaan he/him]

To Tel: Nohadon could presumably be talking about people who own Soulcasters, independent of the nahel bond. For example, I doubt all the ardentia have truthspren, but they still Soulcast.

[FeatherWriter she/her]

Of course this only raises another question of what are the rest of the catagories of Honorspren we have Truthspren and (if I am correct) Protectionspren. Others that might make sense would Loyaltyspren? Justicespren? Fidelityspren? That's all I can think up right now, maybe none of those would stick. Anyone else have any names?

The Ars Arcanum lists the 10 orders each with a Primary and Secondary "Divine Attribute". I'd imagine the spren names would be similar. My spren name guesses are in quotes:

1. Jes - Protecting/Leading (This is Kaladin's Order. The Windrunners. "Protectionspren")

2. Nan - Learned/Giving ("Knowledgespren")

3. Chach - Brave/Obedient ("Braveryspren" or "Couragespren")

4. Vev - Loving/Healing ("Carespren" or "Lovespren")

5. Palah - Just/Confident (This is my hypothesis for Jasnah's order. "Justicespren")

6. Shash - Creative/Honest (I'd bet my right arm that this is Shallan's. "Truthspren")

7. Betab - Wise/Careful ("Wisdomspren" or "Cautionspren")

8. Kak - Resolute/Builder ("Strengthspren")

9. Tanat - Dependable/Resourceful ("Certaintyspren")

10. Ishi - Pious/Guiding ("Advicespren")

Some of those are way sketchy, but whatever. Those are my ideas. And all 10 would be under the name Honorspren.

New theory time, thanks to all this speculation. Assuming that Honorspren have 10 categories - one for each order: what if it's possible to establish a bond with other spren besides the 10 Honorspren and get other powers? I wouldn't rule it out. Brandon is incredibly fond of not telling everything about the magic systems, especially in the first books. Remember when there were only 10 Allomantic metals? I have a feeling there's something similar here. It'd explain the "Not all spren are as discerning as honorspren" comment.

There is no way we know everything about Surgebinding, but I think Brandon's tricked us into thinking we have a handle on what we don't know. I have a feeling lots of us are saying "Okay, we know that Windrunning's an order, and Soulcasting's a power, so in the next books we'll need nine more orders, nine more powers, and we'll need to match them all up, right?" and Brandon's going to say, "Yeah, that's true - but wait there's more! Hahahaha!" And we'll beat ourselves up because it was really obvious all along and no one got it.

Edited July 28, 2012 by FeatherWriter

[Windrunner he/him]

Interesting list Feather, I'm sure you're right about the "there's more" part. Just so you know though, the attributes you have for Nalan and Palah (2 & 5) need to be switched. It's an Ars Arcanum error from some of the earlier copies.