What was your disappointment in this series?

[CrazyRioter she/her]

It was also the reveal that they blew up Ashyn, but I definitely think there's more to the Recreance than we've been told.

[LerasiumMistborn]

2 hours ago, giveuptheghost said:

I do want to point out that a character dying does not mean they don't continue to be important to the narrative. Dalinar is likely to play a role in Renarin's flashbacks, for example.

I'm sorry, but I don't want to read about my dead favorite character through third person perspective in the flashbacks. It just makes it even more heart-breaking and painful, as it makes me think about times, when my favorite characters was still alive. Just no.

I'm 100% no one will find it that amazing. Read flashbacks of dead character you love...If this is a character I don't care about, it's fine. But my favorite? No. No one will be happy to read about dead Kaladin. And I don't want to read about dead Dalinar. What I wanted to read is HIS chapters, HIS journey, and HIS thoughts.

As for word count, people just don't pay attention on things like this, until it started to affect characters they do care about. Only those who do care for Dalinar see how small his role is, what a waste of character he really is.

 

[Calderis he/him]

@LerasiumMistborn Brandon says in the WoBs people have posted that Dalinar has a large role in book 5, I'm not sure why you insist he doesn't. And there's a very real possibility that Dalinar will survive into the back half (and possibly beyond) via ascension.

I think that there's plenty more Dalinar cooking in the future. I honestly see Kaladin's death as more likely than his. 

Kaladin is not supposed to be "the main character" no matter how many people insist otherwise. There isn't supposed to be a main character of SA. There are 10.

As to my complaints... The way Amaram was handled, and as I've said before, the abruptness of Moash's turn. "you put a lighteyes in charge of the refugee camp? Humans are crem! Kill em' all!" 

Edited February 20, 2019 by Calderis

[Vissy]

As a sort of an aside, I find it somewhat strange that we are talking about what was our main disappointment in this series. As far as I know, Stormlight isn't even halfway complete! 

That being said, some of the plot threads have been unfulfilling. Amaram came out of nowhere. Moash's heel-face turn (why does wanting a revolution automatically translate to "let's kill all of the humans"? Moash doesn't have any agency as a character, nor a plan besides a nihilistic declaration of "i just want to kill people"). Adolin not being given enough page-time. And Lift. Oh, god. You could literally remove her from the story entirely and nothing would change. I feel like she's been handled poorly so far. 

[CrazyRioter she/her]

11 minutes ago, Calderis said:

@LerasiumMistborn Brandon says in the WoBs people have posted that Dalinar has a large role in book 5, I'm not sure why you insist he doesn't. And there's a very real possibility that Dalinar will survive into the back half (and possibly beyond) via ascension.

I think that there's plenty more Dalinar cooking in the future. I honestly see Kaladin's death as more likely than his.

Yeah,I definitely don't see Dalinar as likely to die, at least not before the back five, assuming he doesn't Ascend. I judge Kaladin as the main 10 character most likely to die. He's that kind of character.

[equinox]

I fully agree that Amaram's turn could have been foreshadowed/explained better. Moash, on the other hand, just wanted to run away at first.

Quote

Moash found himself enjoying these weeks hiking and pulling his sledge. It exhausted his body, quieted his thoughts, and let him fall into a calm rhythm. This was certainly far better than his days as a lighteyes, when he’d worried incessantly about the plot against the king. (OB, ch. 48).

He knew that he through away what he had with Kaladin and Bridge 4. He ponders that in his previous POV. While pulling the sledge toward Kholinar, he tries to convince himself that he did nothing wrong, that circumstances or society have to be blamed. 

Quote

The Voidbringers were smart, driven, and efficient. If Kholinar fell to this force, it would be no more than humankind deserved. Yes … perhaps the time for his people had passed. Moash had failed Kaladin and the others—but that was merely how men were in this debased age. He couldn’t be blamed. He was a product of his culture. (OB, ch. 48)

True, what drove him to help the Parshmen crew is not fully clear to me. I guess his senses weren't dulled completely yet and he still could empathize. In his next chapter, he realized nothing has changed for him:

Quote

Still … a lumberyard. Like those back in the warcamps. He started laughing. “Don’t be so jovial, human,” spat one of the overseers. “You’re to spend the next few weeks working here, building siege equipment. When the assault happens, you’ll be at the front, running a ladder toward Kholinar’s infamous walls.” Moash laughed even harder. It consumed him, shook him; he couldn’t stop. He laughed helplessly until, short of breath, he dizzily lay back on the hard stone ground, tears leaking down the sides of his face. (OB, ch. 51).

He befriends the Parsh, but at the same time he knows from experience that he will fail again. And then:

Quote

Their accent was so similar to that of many of the bridgemen who had been Moash’s friends. Let go, Moash, something deep within him whispered. Give up your pain. It’s all right. You did what was natural. You can’t be blamed. Stop carrying that burden. Let go. (OB, ch. 54)

He was in a very bad state when he left the warcamps. He was worse in Revolution. Then he starts to shove his feelings away, blame other, tries to forget. How could he not accept Odium's offer? 

His lust for vengeance is the only thing that keeps him going. Lady Leshwi stroked that fire in him. Killing Elhokar was the final point of no return. Then, and only then, he gave in completely. Set aside all feelings of remorse that before that still came up sometimes.

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

4 hours ago, Vissy said:

And Lift. Oh, god. You could literally remove her from the story entirely and nothing would change. I feel like she's been handled poorly so far. 

Edgedancer is excellent though. And she is just being set-up for her main story in the back half. But this far she is kinda annoying.

[Guest]

21 minutes ago, Config2 said:

It's just my opinion, but not reading a book because it doesnt fit the perfect pictures in your mind seems too hug-boxy. Literature is about people, and people die and fade. 

Of course, your opinion is yours, but for me literature and reading are entertainment and something I enjoy doing. If a book series somewhere took a turn to somewhere that has lessened my enjoyment of it over time, then I don't see a reason to suffer through the next book just because.

I also don't like the word "hugbox", but that has different reasons and I'm sure, that you didn't mean those.

[Kelevra]

I will stop reading these books if Dalinar dies too. Just saying...

[Sedside she/her]

2 hours ago, LerasiumMistborn said:

As for Kaladin, I have no doubts he's the main character. Yes, "officially" there're 10 characters (yeah, Eshonai is a main character of the series...). "Unofficially" though...Kaladin is the main character. He was supposed to have two flashback books, he has ridiculously high word count, and Sanderson said he's very important for the whole series, for all ten books.

If that's true, then on one hand I'm happy, as I'm lucky to have Kaladin as my favourite character ever, I guess, on the other hand... It will take storming 20 years to learn his story in its entirety! Oh, my...

Edited February 20, 2019 by Sedside

[Config2]

24 minutes ago, LerasiumMistborn said:

I lost people too, and loss in fiction is just another loss for me. As painful and heart-breaking as always. Nothing more. I have no moral strength to read such things anymore.

Though I hoped, just hoped, that this time I won't need to "re-write the story in my head, so it will better fits with my desires". Just one time. No, I was wrong again. It's indeed sad, especially considering there were more interesting ways of how Dalinar's story could develop, instead of wasting him like this, but I guess I need to learn how to accept it and live with it. 

Maybe I'm just "cursed" when it comes to my experience with fiction and fictional characters.

This is clearly important to you, and I wish I could help more. Its hard to be unable to share the love I have for these books, but I imagine it's worse to feel betrayed by them.

I guess that all I can say is that there is a point at which someone will get it right, and you'll find that you didn't need to imagine it better than it was. Until then keep trying, as finding the failures in one attempt might help you find the successes in another. If not with SA than with something else. 

Worst comes to worst, write it yourself. I write all the time, and never share it with anyone (because it's bad writing), but it does let me tell stories the way I think they should be told.

23 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Of course, your opinion is yours, but for me literature and reading are entertainment and something I enjoy doing. If a book series somewhere took a turn to somewhere that has lessened my enjoyment of it over time, then I don't see a reason to suffer through the next book just because.

I also don't like the word "hugbox", but that has different reasons and I'm sure, that you didn't mean those.

For me Hugbox implies a safe space which enables escapism or denial rather than growth and solidarity. It's taken on a derogatory connotation, but for me it's just kind of bad by definition. Kind of a misnomer, as I think that a place where people hug would be more effective than one where people are safe.

I'm not saying you should struggle through everything, but there is something to be said for reading even things you don't like. I mean, I read the Art of War, and the Epic of Gilgamesh for "fun" although they weren't very fun to read. I think that finishing out a part of the books, like the first 5 for LerasiumMistborn, helps bring closure to the character. Even if it's not the ideal closure you wanted. 

Maybe I'm oversharing, I don't want to try and drown anyone out. It's ok to only read things you like!

[Greywatch she/her]

I'd like to clarify a few things. We hid a lot of posts discussing a WoB about Dalinar dying - there was some supposition that it was confirmed. It isn't confirmed, but either way, we would've hidden the posts.

Sometimes Brandon does share things privately with some fans, and sometimes he shares things one-on-one that can be made public. There are these sorts of WoBs that are put on Arcanum.

If Brandon wants something to remain private, he asks the person in question not to share it. These types of WoB are not put on Arcanum.

Regardless of which kind of WoB this is, Brandon is very cautious about how much he shares about future books, and especially the back five books, of which we know almost nothing. Nobody knows which characters are going to survive, and even if we feel sure, it is inappropriate to authoritatively state what is going to happen across the series.

[agrabes]

On 2/18/2019 at 11:50 PM, LerasiumMistborn said:

Many things. So many thing in this series don't work for me and feel wrong. It's easier to say that the whole series is one big disappointment. I liked how it started, but further it goes the more I understand those books are not for me.

The biggest flaw is the structure of those books. The structure that doesn't allow anyone, who isn't Kaladin and Shallan, to have a narrative. Some characters get their own books with flashbacks, but this is the only place where they are allowed to have a narrative. While Kaladin and Shallan aka two main characters of the series always have high word count, many chapters and ton of "screen time" in any given book. They don't allow other characters to shine. 

I don't find the idea of focusing such big books on two characters exclusively. I understand, Kaladin is Sanderson's favorite character, but I've never seen any other author who puts his personal preferences above all else, focuses all his attention on his favorites and dismisses everyone else. As a result, those people who aren't invested in Kaladin and Shallan have nothing left for themselves. Unfortunately, I'm this person. Things I like are either on the background or thrown from the story completely. 

And many other things. How Sanderson treats Dalinar is one of the biggest complains. 

I know you've made a lot of comments on this topic, so I figured I would just quote the first one as a general note to you.

I totally get your frustration - if you love Dalinar as a character you want to see him in the forefront and see the world through his eyes.  I've been in the same boat and it's frustrating.  I guess my only advice to you is that you should try to temper your expectations and try to keep this whole thing at arms length.  Try not to take it personally that Sanderson doesn't write more Dalinar, he is just writing the story the way he sees fit.

In terms of Dalinar's place within the series - others have tried to explain this but I'll take my stab.  Dalinar is a very important character, but this isn't the kind of story where he's going to be the primary POV character.  His role is to be the steadying force, the father figure and enlightened king of the forces of good.  He's not the main "doer" of the story, he's the organizer, the leader, the one who sends people out to do the things that need to be done.  And he's a great character, one of my favorites.  It's just that from a higher level narrative perspective the story isn't as interesting (or at least it's not the same kind of interesting as Sanderson's other works) if it's told primarily through his eyes.

Imagine if Dalinar was the primary POV - we would get a lot of story about how he sends Adolin, Kaladin, Jasnah, Shallan, etc off to do different tasks.  It would be about him figuring out what needs to be done, wrestling with political alliances and moral debates, trying to figure out the best people to send on different missions and deciding when he himself needs to be directly involved.  That's a great story, but it's not really the kind of story that SA is set up to be.  There are other works you can look at if that's the kind of story you want, which I'm sure you know.

Anyway, this is just my two cents - I feel for you, I really do but I think you are looking for something here that just isn't going to be there unfortunately.

[Bigmikey357 he/him]

Before peeps start jumping off the ledge about Dalinar dying off, know that those scenes haven't been written yet. Until it's bound up in a novel we can speculate but we don't know for certain what's going to happen or how. And although Brandon writes a tight outline, he still discovery writes when his characters are concerned. I say all this to say that Brandon tends to change his mind to fit the needs of the story so although technical details and the overall story direction rarely deviate from his stated outline, character direction can vary wildly within the narrative. Just for example, in WOK Prime Adolin did not exist and Dalinar killed Elkohar before the book was over. Kaladin had a different name and backstory. There's still so much to know about Roshar, Brandon still has many directions in which he can take the narrative. My advice is to trust the process, don't be so quick to jump ship. But in the end its just suggestions, I mean what do I know? I'm a fan juss like everyone else here. 

[LerasiumMistborn]

12 minutes ago, agrabes said:

I know you've made a lot of comments on this topic, so I figured I would just quote the first one as a general note to you.

 

Sure. But I disagree with this. I don't see that other characters do a lot, while Dalinar does nothing. Kaladin in Words is doing nothing for most of his page time, but hanging around across the warcamps. Shallan's arc in Oathbringer exists only within her head. She thinks the same thoughts over and over again. Dalinar is very active, but even if someone find him to be boring, this is also must be true for all other characters, not just Dalinar.

I understand though, he isn't a main character, but more of a background side kick. I also understand that characters like Dalinar aren't allowed to have narrative in any book. All fantasy books are about "Kaladins".

[CoryP.1981]

My only disappointment is Shallan in Oathbringer. I dont really care for her as a character. I dont like the whole premise that Veil and Radiant are "taking over", so to speak. I enjoyed Shallan the most in WoR, but her storyline took a turn for the worse in OB. I loved Dalinar in OB though, so I guess it kind of offsets. It's been enjoyable seeing Dalinar recall his past and overcoming who he once was to become who he is meant to be. 

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

@Bigmikey357 Adolin actually did exist in WoK prime. His name was Aredor and he died in a highstorm.

[Bigmikey357 he/him]

 

4 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

@Bigmikey357 Adolin actually did exist in WoK prime. His name was Aredor and he died in a highstorm.

Right. My bad.

[MistboreD]

21 hours ago, agrabes said:

I know you've made a lot of comments on this topic, so I figured I would just quote the first one as a general note to you.

I totally get your frustration - if you love Dalinar as a character you want to see him in the forefront and see the world through his eyes.  I've been in the same boat and it's frustrating.  I guess my only advice to you is that you should try to temper your expectations and try to keep this whole thing at arms length.  Try not to take it personally that Sanderson doesn't write more Dalinar, he is just writing the story the way he sees fit.

In terms of Dalinar's place within the series - others have tried to explain this but I'll take my stab.  Dalinar is a very important character, but this isn't the kind of story where he's going to be the primary POV character.  His role is to be the steadying force, the father figure and enlightened king of the forces of good.  He's not the main "doer" of the story, he's the organizer, the leader, the one who sends people out to do the things that need to be done.  And he's a great character, one of my favorites.  It's just that from a higher level narrative perspective the story isn't as interesting (or at least it's not the same kind of interesting as Sanderson's other works) if it's told primarily through his eyes.

Imagine if Dalinar was the primary POV - we would get a lot of story about how he sends Adolin, Kaladin, Jasnah, Shallan, etc off to do different tasks.  It would be about him figuring out what needs to be done, wrestling with political alliances and moral debates, trying to figure out the best people to send on different missions and deciding when he himself needs to be directly involved.  That's a great story, but it's not really the kind of story that SA is set up to be.  There are other works you can look at if that's the kind of story you want, which I'm sure you know.

Anyway, this is just my two cents - I feel for you, I really do but I think you are looking for something here that just isn't going to be there unfortunately.

Can't disagree more with this. Dalinar is the soul of the series for me and he's the character without whom SA wouldn't exist.

"Not the character that going to be primary pov character". Huh. He is more interesting than all existing povs combined.

I would be extremely disappounted if Brandon stopped writing him concidering how important he is.

[Vissy]

In Oathbringer Dalinar is portrayed as a little too perfect IMO. With him he's either portrayed as totally useless (drunk, moping about in his room) or as a literal force of nature who is ultimately always correct and whose methods always work. In WoK and WoR his methods and morals sometimes caused him to fail, but in OB he doesn't. His characterization felt flat in OB (though this wasn't a problem unique to Dalinar).

[agrabes]

20 hours ago, MistboreD said:

Can't disagree more with this. Dalinar is the soul of the series for me and he's the character without whom SA wouldn't exist.

"Not the character that going to be primary pov character". Huh. He is more interesting than all existing povs combined.

I would be extremely disappounted if Brandon stopped writing him concidering how important he is.

I think you're misunderstanding my post entirely.  I agree with you - he is one of, if not the most interesting character in SA.  His struggles resonate with me personally as being similar to what I face in my job - trying to organize people into improving overall systems of how the world (or in my case, my department) works.  However, imagine if (to take LerasiumMistborn's point) the amount of POV's was flipped so that Dalinar had Kaladin's share and Kaladin had Dalinar's share.  We would be telling a totally different kind of story.

With Kaladin and Shallan as primary POV, it's a story of an oppressed young generation is rising up to try to improve the world and how they get caught up in the greater battle to save mankind.  We get to see Dalinar's POV (which again, is amazing) to see the perspective of the established leader and his own efforts of reform.  Kaladin and Shallan get to go out and do things, they get to be reckless and push for things that are going to upset a lot of people.  They're young, they still don't know how the world really works even if they think they do.

Dalinar doesn't get to do those things.  His story is a story of the man in the control room who knows a lot, but is still trying to do something new.  He can't afford to be reckless, he can't afford to take a day off.  There's too much at stake and everyone is depending on him to keep it all together.  You don't get to see the story of growth with him - he's already grown.  If Dalinar is the primary POV, the story is totally different.  Still an interesting story, but a different kind of story.  I like the idea of him being a very important character with relatively few POV's as Sanderson currently has it.

I think there are other novels where a Dalinar type character is the lead, but can't think of them off the top of my head.

 

[MistboreD]

27 minutes ago, agrabes said:

However, imagine if (to take LerasiumMistborn's point) the amount of POV's was flipped so that Dalinar had Kaladin's share and Kaladin had Dalinar's share.  We would be telling a totally different kind of story.

Imagined. Yes, it would be a different story. Much better story, at least for me. Because I find Kaladin and Shallan to be horribly boring characters. And Words of Radiance that focused soley on these two was a horrible book for me. For me, it was clear: these two characters can't handle the narrative alone. They are boring. They don't grow much. They are static. Oathbringer is much better, because it has Dalinar as one of the main povs, but if he will be "character with a few pov" in the future, I would think twice before reading these books. Because he is the character, who makes this series (for me, still IMO). I would prefere if Brandon Sanderson wrote a story of all of his characters instead of focusing it only on two of them. It means people who don't enjoy them that much cannot enjoy the series.

And honestly, I'm tired of "younger generation saves the world". SA felt fresh, because it has Dalinae as a "savior". Kaladin and Shallan have their personal story arcs, but Dalinar handles more global and interesing narrative (with Odium. with unification of the world). Grown people also have their lives and stories to tell. Yes, I prefer to read about adults. 

No, there're no books with characters like Dalinar. I didn't read any. 

All in all, it will lead to nothing. People who love Dalinar, love reading him, and find Shallan or Kaladin boring won't change their minds. To each their own.

[Bigmikey357 he/him]

I'll preface this comment by saying Dalinar is my favorite SA character and probably top 3 Cosmere-wide. I'm in the military and I would pick him as my general. That being said, I didn't begin to feel that way until probably the end of WOK. His story dragged for me up until the Tower. After that he got super interesting and the estimation has grown since. 

Two things grow from that observation. The first is that SA is a quite unconventional series. At the time of publication Brandon had a bunch of ideas that he wasn't sure were gonna be approved. The interludes, the book art, the narrative structure, all these things that are great about SA and that we now take for granted were by no means a certainty in 2010. Now Kaladin is about as conventional a fantasy protagonist as it gets. Having him as a focus character gave publishers something familiar to pair with all that strangeness and ultimately gave Brandon the freedom to write the kind of book he wanted to write. Putting Dalinar in the driver's seat instead would have changed the calculus. It would have been a harder sell unless he had Dalinar perform some of the Kaladin action sequences. And that makes Dalinar a different dude than the one we love.

Second, people bring up page count for Dalinar, saying how low it is compared to some of the other MC's. The thing is, the Dalinar scenes from the Tower on were so flipping epic I honestly didn't notice his lack of pages. He has more bang for the proverbial buck than any Stormlight character. Maybe more Dalinar makes for a better story for some people, for me I'm not so sure. More pages means more opportunities for scrutiny. I hated Kaladin a little in WOR because of the depression and angst arc. Only the epic ending (Stretch forth thy hand!) saved him. And we all know the headaches Shallan caused in OB, headaches some people still aren't quite over. Meanwhile Szeth, despite being a MC and a killing machine akin to an epidemic, benefits from his limited time on screen. Nobody is jumping on him like they do, say, Adolin for example. 

I'm not faulting anyone for their preferences, even if those preferences cause them to step away from the books. I mean, you get a character you love and you wanna see them more. I know people on the boards who are just as irrationally in love with Adolin as some on this forum are with Dalinar. It's just my opinion that more Dalinar doesn't necessarily mean you get a better product. Dalinar works for me because he doesn't need the type of exposition our other people need. He's not a minor noble shoved into prominence or a former slave who gains godly powers. His progress is more gradual because he started off high..

[+ILuvHats he/him]

About main characters dying... I disagree with @CrazyRioter that Kaladin is the most likely to die by the end of arc 1. The fact that he's such an archetypal character, the one you'd expect to sacrifice himself for the greater good, makes me think he'll survive. Or, alternatively, he'll die in disgrace, but that would piss off a lot of people (including me), so him surviving seems like a good bet. Dalinar should live through book 5 as well. He's not really set up as the type to sacrifice himself, either as a surprise to readers or not. I'm not saying Dalinar wouldn't sacrifice himself if necessary, but he does a lot more alive, leading the war effort and UNITING than he does dead. Plus, IMO he's been set up to be heading towards greater things. His weird visions of light, the Nohadon vision, they are all indicating that he's headed to become something greater than a man. Him dying before that happens would be a huge writing no no, since none of our expectations as readers would be met, and Brandon's a better writer than that. And him dying in a sacrificial way after Ascending or something would be really similar to 

Spoiler

Vin's arc at the end of HoA,

making me think that it needs to be something different from that. So, I'd again bet that Dalinar will likely survive arc 1.

There do need to be casualties among the main protagonists though to maintain the stakes of the story, which leads us to the question of who's gonna die. I have to admit I've always liked the "Taravangian sacrifice" theory, that after being placed in a position to betray Odium in OB, he'll eventually save everyone but die doing so. Of course, he's not really a main character though. On that note, I could see Adolin dying. And yes, that would remove one of the only non-radiant POVs we have. But his death would have huge ramifications for other characters, and honestly, it could fit where his arc seems to be headed. He's the "normal" person caught up in this global conflict. It calls to mind when Adolin thinks to himself how the world has become a place of gods and radiants, and he's not sure how he fits into this new world. And, what happens to normal people in catastrophes? They die. "Normal" people are often the victims, because they can't control what goes on around them. So to me, Adolin's number 1 on my list of most likely to die before SA 5. 

[Lidolas he/him]

My least favorite thing in SA so far was Kaladin's homecoming arc and being 'captured' by Parshendi in OB.  The whole thing seemed like it could have been cut by 75% without losing anything important.  When they were being released weekly, I'd get excited for his chapters and then disappointed, over and over.