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Why didn't Odium trigger the everstorm before?


Luinedhel

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Hi, I just signed up to this forum, so this is my first post. Therefore, if there's another topic about this, please redirect me. Thanks!

I finished my 1° reading of Oathbringer llst week, and I was just wondering: If the greatest impediment for Team Voidbringer during the desolations was the trapping on Braize of the fallen fused, then why didn't Odium sought to create the everstorm before, thus enabling multiple resurrections for the fused, many desolations ago? 

I'm looking forward to your opinions on the subject!

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15 minutes ago, Luinedhel said:

Hi, I just signed up to this forum, so this is my first post. Therefore, if there's another topic about this, please redirect me. Thanks!

I finished my 1° reading of Oathbringer llst week, and I was just wondering: If the greatest impediment for Team Voidbringer during the desolations was the trapping on Braize of the fallen fused, then why didn't Odium sought to create the everstorm before, thus enabling multiple resurrections for the fused, many desolations ago? 

Welcome to the Shard! Hope you're enjoying the series!

Before, Odium did not need the Everstorm. He figured he would win through attrition. His forces would whittle down the humans until they no longer stood against him.

The Heralds held his Fused back at the end of every Desolation by being on Braize. Them betraying the Oathpact has allowed the Fused to resurrect after every death through the Everstorm. 

He never needed the Everstorm before as he was O.K. with just giving up time.

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2 minutes ago, Naurock said:

 

The Heralds held his Fused back at the end of every Desolation by being on Braize. Them betraying the Oathpact has allowed the Fused to resurrect after every death through the Everstorm. 

He never needed the Everstorm before as he was O.K. with just giving up time.

But there's WoB saying that the Oathpact is not quite broken, not as the heralds asume at least. Anyway, it seems to me that the everstorm is too valuable a card, to leave it unplayed until last moment.

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8 minutes ago, Luinedhel said:

But there's WoB saying that the Oathpact is not quite broken, not as the heralds asume at least.

Yes, which is why I said 'betrayed' and not broken. It's still not working correctly, though. It used to keep the Fused from instantly resurrecting. 

We haven't seen all of the Unmade, either. There's speculation that Ba-Ado-Mishram as the "General of Odium's forces" used to give Voidlight and forms of power. He may never really have needed it before.

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I guess, technically, Odium never NEEDED the Everstorm, not even now. But it gives a noticeable edge in war. He obviously had to wait for Taln to break in order to start the storm, that's why I reckon he could have done it during any past desolation, after all of the heralds were back in Roshar, hence not sealing away the fused. Unless you're saying that the oathpact had to be weakened to some extent for Odium to be able to do it. In that case, we can do nothing but to sit and wait for Stormilght 4.

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My own take is that Odium couldn't have done it before, not while the Heralds held to the Oathpact.  There's a line in the WoK prologue:

Quote

Kalak shook his head.  "He will not remain bound by this.  The enemy.  He will find a way around it.  You know he will."

Because nine of the Heralds tried to get around the Oathpact by not returning to Braize, it opened the door for Odium to also get around the Oathpact by sending the Everstorm.  That's my take on it, at least.

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3 minutes ago, galendo said:

My own take is that Odium couldn't have done it before, not while the Heralds held to the Oathpact.  There's a line in the WoK prologue:

Because nine of the Heralds tried to get around the Oathpact by not returning to Braize, it opened the door for Odium to also get around the Oathpact by sending the Everstorm.  That's my take on it, at least.

If that's the case, then he could have done it at any point for the last 4500 years. Why wait until rosharan civilization was at its best? 

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8 minutes ago, Luinedhel said:

If that's the case, then he could have done it at any point for the last 4500 years. Why wait until rosharan civilization was at its best? 

He needed agents on Roshar to open a bridge to let his Investiture in. The Diagram instructed Taravangian to try and press the Alethi to destroy the listeners quickly before they could open the way to Odium. Without their work, Odium's resources on Roshar weren't enough to create the Everstorm independently. The circumstances that allowed all those necessary steps to happen weren't there beforehand.

Edited by Weltall
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33 minutes ago, Luinedhel said:

If that's the case, then he could have done it at any point for the last 4500 years. Why wait until rosharan civilization was at its best? 

Well, he certainly couldn't have done it after the old Radiants trapped all the Parshendi in slaveform since he needs them to sing the storm.  Could he have done it before that?  Perhaps, but it might have been risky to put even more of his power into the Everstorm while both Honor and Cultivation were around to take advantage.  Being outnumbered two-to-one seems hard enough already.

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33 minutes ago, Luinedhel said:

If that's the case, then he could have done it at any point for the last 4500 years. Why wait until rosharan civilization was at its best? 

Well, he certainly couldn't have done it after the old Radiants trapped all the Parshendi in slaveform since he needs them to sing the storm.  Could he have done it before that?  Perhaps, but it might have been risky to put even more of his power into the Everstorm while both Honor and Cultivation were around to take advantage.  Being outnumbered two-to-one seems hard enough already.

35 minutes ago, Angsos said:

One was still holding

This is a good point as well.  It's possible he needed all the Heralds to break their oaths before he could act.

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49 minutes ago, Luinedhel said:

If that's the case, then he could have done it at any point for the last 4500 years. Why wait until rosharan civilization was at its best? 

Part of it was probably that he was trying not to Invest himself too heavily onto Roshar so he could pull himself away a lot easier once he was able to do so, but now he's determined to pretty much wipe out Rosharan civilization to free himself, so he needed more active resources to use.

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Quote

"Odium rides the very winds, like the enemy once did." - OB Interlude 6

I think Honor probably could have directly interfered in the creation of the Everstorm. The creation of a new storm is something like (Mistborn) 

Spoiler

Vin trying to affect Scadrial. When she tries to move the planet a second time after she messed up, Ruin blocks her. If she wasn't comparatively week I'm sure she could have prevented Ruin from holding open the Ashmounts too. 

The Stormfather says the Everstorm was old in design, and there really ist a reason who Odium wouldn't use it if he could. I don't think the Heralds had anything to do with it, their part was just keeping the Fused locked away, I don't see why they could prevent Stormform from summoning the storm. 

We know that Stormform used to be one of the forms of power singers had access to in the past, because Adolin's Plate reacts to their lightning. So even if there had been enough Stormform regals, I think Honor was what kept them from calling it. 

After Honor died, all Odium had to do was wait for Taln to break. The Everstorm wouldn't have been of much use to him before, and humans fighting each other in the meanwhile just played I to his hands. (Again, Mistborn spoilers) 

Spoiler

Ruin was able to set things in motion that let him escape only a few years before the Well filled. I think as soon as Odium realized Taln would break soon, he started manipulating the listeners. 

 

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53 minutes ago, Invocation said:

Part of it was probably that he was trying not to Invest himself too heavily onto Roshar so he could pull himself away a lot easier once he was able to do so, but now he's determined to pretty much wipe out Rosharan civilization to free himself, so he needed more active resources to use.

Seems plausible. Still, there's still not official word about the capabilities of Odium. Seems a bit off to me that the oathpact alone could keep at bay the Everstorm, since all this time Odium's investiture could manifest on Roshar anyway. Plus, the calling of the new storm seemed to be the doing of the listeners in stormform alone. That could be also possible during the false desolation, when the singers were given forms of power. I think along the line of this:

 

8 minutes ago, Ciridae said:

 

I think Honor probably could have directly interfered in the creation of the Everstorm. The creation of a new storm is something like (Mistborn) 

  Reveal hidden contents

Vin trying to affect Scadrial. When she tries to move the planet a second time after she messed up, Ruin blocks her. If she wasn't comparatively week I'm sure she could have prevented Ruin from holding open the Ashmounts too. 

The Stormfather says the Everstorm was old in design, and there really ist a reason who Odium wouldn't use it if he could. I don't think the Heralds had anything to do with it, their part was just keeping the Fused locked away, I don't see why they could prevent Stormform from summoning the storm. 

We know that Stormform used to be one of the forms of power singers had access to in the past, because Adolin's Plate reacts to their lightning. So even if there had been enough Stormform regals, I think Honor was what kept them from calling it. 

After Honor died, all Odium had to do was wait for Taln to break. The Everstorm wouldn't have been of much use to him before, and humans fighting each other in the meanwhile just played I to his hands. (Again, Mistborn spoilers) 

  Reveal hidden contents

Ruin was able to set things in motion that let him escape only a few years before the Well filled. I think as soon as Odium realized Taln would break soon, he started manipulating the listeners. 

 

Honor himself might be involved, or maybe Odium is playing the fool, making everybody believe he's more incapacitated than he actually is. 

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Maybe Odium needed the Knight Radiants to re-emerge first just in time before the arrival of the Everstorm destroyed that chance. He planned Dalinar to be his Champion so it seems like he had insight into what was going to happen. 

Edit: I mean there is one of the Moleach Death Rattles that presumably talks about Shallan and Kaladin emerging from the chasms. Maybe Odiun could see as far ahead as Shallan finding the Oathgate to Urithiru. 

Edited by insert_anagram_here
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3 hours ago, Luinedhel said:

Seems plausible. Still, there's still not official word about the capabilities of Odium. Seems a bit off to me that the oathpact alone could keep at bay the Everstorm, since all this time Odium's investiture could manifest on Roshar anyway. Plus, the calling of the new storm seemed to be the doing of the listeners in stormform alone. That could be also possible during the false desolation, when the singers were given forms of power. I think along the line of this:

 

Honor himself might be involved, or maybe Odium is playing the fool, making everybody believe he's more incapacitated than he actually is. 

Basically, the Oathpact made it so that the Fused had to return back to Braize when they died on Roshar. Using the Everstorm before the Oathpact was weakened is pointless, because the Fused are never on Roshar when they die. The Everstorm serves as a gateway from the CR of Roshar to the PR (and as a way to restore the enslaved Singers), but there’s no point in using it if there are no Fused in the CR of Roshar to go through the gateway (or enslaved Singers to restore).

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7 hours ago, Ciridae said:

We know that Stormform used to be one of the forms of power singers had access to in the past, because Adolin's Plate reacts to their lightning. So even if there had been enough Stormform regals, I think Honor was what kept them from calling it.

I agree with the gist of your post, but it's worth pointing out that just because Adolin's Plate reacts to the lightning, it doesn't mean that Team Odium had access to Stormform before.  We know that Plate resists all sorts of Investiture, and likely it was mostly intended as a general counterpoint to Odium's forces, so the fact that it reacts to the lightning shouldn't be surprising even if Stormform is a brand-new invention.

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Quote

Stormform is said to cause
A tempest of winds and showers,
Beware its powers, beware its powers.
Though its coming brings the gods their night,
It obliges a bloodred spren.
Beware its end, beware its end. ”

—4th stanza of the Song of Winds

Stormform is not new

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3 hours ago, StrikerEZ said:

Basically, the Oathpact made it so that the Fused had to return back to Braize when they died on Roshar. Using the Everstorm before the Oathpact was weakened is pointless, because the Fused are never on Roshar when they die. The Everstorm serves as a gateway from the CR of Roshar to the PR (and as a way to restore the enslaved Singers), but there’s no point in using it if there are no Fused in the CR of Roshar to go through the gateway (or enslaved Singers to restore).

That is assuming that the oathpact IS in fact weakened. There's only speculation about it. For what we know, the 9 remaining heralds are still bound to it, thus making the Everstorm possible at any time, given that the 10 heralds are present on Roshar. And as the previous comments have stated, stormform is an old thing. If I were playing for Voidbringer team, I'd rather have the Everstorm running than not. That is supported by the statement by the Stormfather saying that the Everstorm is of old design. 4500+ years of a storm reviving fused would be overwhelming even for a hundred heralds. Therefore I still suspect Honor was aware of it, and had a hand in forestalling it.

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