WOB about Kaladin & Shallan...

[StrikerEZ he/him]

Personally, while Shallan isn’t my favorite character in the series, I can really relate to her. And I really don’t understand all the backlash she gets from other readers. 

Anyway, as for Shalladin, I felt that, because of the whole chasm sequence, that relationship would’ve been way too cliche, and I really don’t like cliches when it comes to romances. Adolin and Shallan’s romance never felt cliche to me, though I can see how some might view as the “Prince Charming gets his girl” cliche. Personally, I don’t think Adolin is much of a Prince Charming character, so him marrying Shallan doesn’t come off that way to me. I do, however, agree with the general consensus that they should not have rushed into marriage so quickly. But I think it’ll be a much better story for them to work out the problems in their marriage and the problems with Shallan’s personas together.

[+robardin he/him]

17 hours ago, Auralis said:

What could possibly happen that would make a Shalladin shipper VERY PLEASED that they don't end up together?

An outside-the-box meaning of Kaladin and Shallan getting together.

Like, in Book 8 or 9, when the Cosmere works are crossing up, someone hemalurgically staples her, Kaladin, Adolin, and Renarin into a Kholinoss with 4 sprens, 8 surges, and superhuman strength. "I am Radiant."

Edited January 3, 2019 by robardin

[StrikerEZ he/him]

1 minute ago, robardin said:

An outside-the-box meaning of Kaladin and Shallan getting together.

Like, in Book 8 or 9, when the Cosmere works are crossing up, someone hemalurgically staples her, Kaladin, Adolin, and Renarin into a Kholinoss with 4 sprens, 8 surges, and superhuman strength

Well, if we’re being pedantic here, there’d only be 6 surges, since some of those Orders share surges. 

[+robardin he/him]

Just now, StrikerEZ said:

Well, if we’re being pedantic here, there’d only be 6 surges, since some of those Orders share surges. 

Heh

I guess if Adolin is assumed to become some kind of Edgedancer via a revived Mayalaran, Regrowth gets doubled up with Renarin

But that makes 7 surges then, since Renarin does not, in fact, share Lightweaving with Shallan, he has the foretelling sight from Glys being touched by Sja-anat

[StrikerEZ he/him]

9 hours ago, robardin said:

Heh

I guess if Adolin is assumed to become some kind of Edgedancer via a revived Mayalaran, Regrowth gets doubled up with Renarin

But that makes 7 surges then, since Renarin does not, in fact, share Lightweaving with Shallan, he has the foretelling sight from Glys being touched by Sja-anat

Oh, you got me there. I mean, assuming that the surge of Illumination that Renarin has is the void version.

[Void89 he/him]

Usually Brandon never gives away that sort of spoilers - so either he really does feel bad about the way it went or 'shallan' has made up her mind - who says it's not one of the fractured personalities - just because she stuck with her first name? She did change a lot and pattern said in the end 'it's a good you' - either way - kaladin and lift in like 10 years or so

Would be definitely hilarious

[Rainier]

7 hours ago, Void89 said:

Usually Brandon never gives away that sort of spoilers - so either he really does feel bad about the way it went or 'shallan' has made up her mind - who says it's not one of the fractured personalities - just because she stuck with her first name?

I think he realized he did it poorly because everyone is still talking about it, so he wanted to put it to bed well ahead of book 4 to set those expectations early. Get ahead of any hype, put down any misconceptions, to avoid angst in the future.

I'd love to believe that 'Shallan' the persona made the choice and that she still needs to reconcile her fractured personality, but even if that's the case, I don't see her changing. Frankly I'm pretty disappointed with how that entire arc went (through two books!), so the best outcome for me is if it disappears into the background and never shows up again.

[Void89 he/him]

If this truly is the end it's really disappointing, he went with the 'prince gets the girl always no matter what' clichè trope too many times now...

Elantris, Mistborn, Warbreaker, it's hinted and probably will be the very same in Skyward, and then we get a triangle in SA and what is he going for in the end?

Yeah right - prince gets the girl again... like seriously...? He writes great stories - no denying that, but boy - he really needs to get away from that boring predictable clichè lovecrap.

What exactly was the point teasing all that what could have been interesting and something new when he just goes for default choice A again...?

Damnation, remind me to skip all the couple stuff in books that might come in the future -.-

Edited January 4, 2019 by Void89

[Joy she/her]

I'm a little confused why people think Adolin and Shallan getting together is an example of "The prince gets the girl" trope. Yes, Adolin is literally a prince, but he's not the main character -- not by a stretch. I think it would have been significantly more tropey for Kaladin (the closest thing this series has to a "main" main character) to end up with Shallan.

And I'm saying this as someone who greatly prefers Shallan/Kaladin to Shallan/Adolin.

Edited January 6, 2019 by Joy

[StrikerEZ he/him]

7 minutes ago, Joy said:

I'm a little confused why people think Adolin and Shallan getting together is an example of "The prince gets the girl" trope. Yes, Adolin is literally a prince, but he's not the main character -- not by a stretch. I think it would have been significantly more tropey for Kaladin (the closest thing this series has to a "main" main character) to end up with Shallan.

And I'm saying this as someone who greatly prefers Shallan/Kaladin to Shallan/Adolin.

I totally agree with this. Plus, in my opinion, the only thing Shalladin had going for it was the fact that, usually, the male and female leads get together. And there was the chasm scene. But that would’ve happened if you’d shoved any two young, attractive people together in a life or death scenario. Adolin always felt like a much better option to me, simply because he wasn’t the lead male character.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Joy said:

I'm a little confused why people think Adolin and Shallan getting together is an example of "The prince gets the girl" trope. Yes, Adolin is literally a prince, but he's not the main character -- not by a stretch. I think it would have been significantly more tropey for Kaladin (the closest thing this series has to a "main" main character) to end up with Shallan.

And I'm saying this as someone who greatly prefers Shallan/Kaladin to Shallan/Adolin.

The point of the trope is not "the male main character gets the girl", but "the prince gets the girl"... It is exactly the trope.

1 hour ago, StrikerEZ said:

Plus, in my opinion, the only thing Shalladin had going for it was the fact that, usually, the male and female leads get together. And there was the chasm scene. But that would’ve happened if you’d shoved any two young, attractive people together in a life or death scenario.

And Shadolin only had going for it, that they were forced together by House Kholin. It was a construed romance from the start. The chasm scene was much more natural progression.

1 hour ago, StrikerEZ said:

Adolin always felt like a much better option to me, simply because he wasn’t the lead male character.

You are of course entitled to your opinion, but this reasoning is quite frankly irrational. Why should a literary role be important in making a good match?

Edited January 6, 2019 by SLNC

[StrikerEZ he/him]

8 minutes ago, SLNC said:

You are of course entitled to your opinion, but this reasoning is quite frankly irrational. Why should a literary role be important in making a good match?

It’s not really irrational, I’m just using different criteria for why they should be in a relationship than you are. However, I have talked in the past on specifics of in-book reasons why I think they work together, but neither of us agree with each other’s interpretations, so that’s just an endless argument I don’t want to start right now.

Anyway, I guess I didn’t phrase what I meant very well. Personally, I don’t find the “prince gets the girl” trope as annoying as the “main male and main female characters get together” trope. The latter annoys me so much more, so it was refreshing to see the main female character end up with someone besides the main male character. 

[Sedside she/her]

Hello all!

I've never participated in any forum discussions regarding any books, but this particular arc in SA left me with so much disturbance that I just can't resist.

I haven't read any other BS books, so I have no idea of "how poorly he handles romance", "arranged marriages always work out" or whatsoever. I've read two whole triangle discussion threads in their entirety of 96 + 14 pages and yes, I'm really that annoyed with how it was "resolved" in OB. I have a lot of things to say about it, but I don't see any ongoing threads and don't want to start offtopic here. So I will reply to this:

17 hours ago, StrikerEZ said:

Personally, I don’t find the “prince gets the girl” trope as annoying as the “main male and main female characters get together” trope. The latter annoys me so much more, so it was refreshing to see the main female character end up with someone besides the main male character. 

Well, you know, I don't care about this "trope" stuff, I would enjoy any trope, in case it's written in interesting and beleivable way. But if this OB ending was really meant to be sold to me as a break of "male MC gets the female MC" trope you are pointing at, then perhaps BS isn't my writer. Because I just don't beleive it. Whatever fantasy we are reading, human psychology must work pretty similar to the real world, and Sanderson was handling it incredibly well with addiction and depression so far, that's why my mind is blown by this romance arc.

Regarding the mentioned WOB (what does this abbreviature mean, btw?). I've also found this one:

Quote

cupcakeunicorns

Stormlight: as a lady who enjoys romances, is a Kaladin romance coming soon?

Brandon Sanderson

Three (kind of three and a half) failures so far. Maybe fourth time is a charm? Let's just say it's not off the table.

source

He says "three and a half", probably he means Veil as a "half"? This makes me think that a WOB about Shallan making a desicion is pretty much the same thing. "Shallan" made a desicion? So did Veil. "Shallan" won't change her mind, but, come on, who said she is the boss here?

[StrikerEZ he/him]

1 hour ago, Sedside said:

Well, you know, I don't care about this "trope" stuff, I would enjoy any trope, in case it's written in interesting and beleivable way. But if this OB ending was really meant to be sold to me as a break of "male MC gets the female MC" trope you are pointing at, then perhaps BS isn't my writer. Because I just don't beleive it. Whatever fantasy we are reading, human psychology must work pretty similar to the real world, and Sanderson was handling it incredibly well with addiction and depression so far, that's why my mind is blown by this romance arc.

Regarding the mentioned WOB (what does this abbreviature mean, btw?). I've also found this one:

I mean, you have every right to not care about the tropes. However, I also have every right to care about the tropes, too.

Anyway, all that aside, I can totally see where you’re coming from. I just disagree, but that’s okay! 

[Winds Alight she/her]

1 hour ago, Sedside said:

"Shallan" made a desicion? So did Veil. "Shallan" won't change her mind, but, come on, who said she is the boss here?

I don't think I'd want Veil to take over and decide to be with Kaladin ... and I really don't think Kaladin would want that.

Shallan's multiple personae is a manifestation of pretty serious mental health issues. The goal for Shallan is to become more stable and not rely on her aliases so much. Not the other way round ...

[Void89 he/him]

Let's be real about something here though - Shallan isn't Shallan - like just because this one personality is named like the original one it's only one third of her anyway - dismissing all the others just because she named them differently is just pure madness.

A lot of you take the shallan persona for the real deal and say she needs to heal - yeah sure she does but that's done by accepting that she's all 3 of her splintered personas not the one who is fractured needs to suck it up and take command. Shallan is Shallan, Veil and Radiant not one or the other.

Let's remember the time she went after jasnah traveling through whole roshar - taking challenge after challenge and when jasnah disappeared and their ship sank - she went straight to her later minions who were deserters ready to kill her.. the shallan we have in OB later would never do that but would let take veil or radiant over because that's where she stored her part that would be able to do stuff like that (as we see in the chase after rei-shephir (or however that's spelled correctly)).

 

That said, Adolin is the one who 'accepts' the girlish, idiotic fractured shallan who likes to draw, the 'real' her - which in truth won't help her a bit - since when somebody tells you 'hey I really love that part of you the most - this is you' you probably act like it to please the other person not even considering the issue of having problems like fractured personas - but it will end badly once you cant act any longer and the truth comes out eventually.

And what exactly on that whole scenario helps shallan now in the long run? Sorry don't see it.

Also I have to agree with Sedside here it just feels completely unnatural and weird. The trope thing was just the icing on the cake but - show me any girl who is torn between 2 guys and then suddenly decides out of the blue 'hey storm this - I'm not only making a choice right now after almost dying in the ultimate battle - I'll screw myself so badly that I just get married instantly - because at least if it's the wrong choice I'm really stormed'

 

Sounds totally reasonable...

Edited January 7, 2019 by Void89

[+robardin he/him]

4 hours ago, Void89 said:

A lot of you take the shallan persona for the real deal and say she needs to heal - yeah sure she does but that's done by accepting that she's all 3 of her splintered personas not the one who is fractured needs to suck it up and take command. Shallan is Shallan, Veil and Radiant not one or the other.

Let's remember the time she went after jasnah traveling through whole roshar - taking challenge after challenge and when jasnah disappeared and their ship sank - she went straight to her later minions who were deserters ready to kill her.. the shallan we have in OB later would never do that but would let take veil or radiant over because that's where she stored her part that would be able to do stuff like that (as we see in the chase after rei-shephir (or however that's spelled correctly)).

I think this is a very good observation.

That said, I think Adolin's acceptance of her is important for her mental health, not because Adolin sees her only as "the silly girl who draws", but because Adolin sees her fundamentally as a single person. The scene where she flashes between Veil, Radiant, and "herself" (Shallan), and Adolin grips her hand tighter when "Shallan" peeks through, more reflects him recognizing a certain fullness or stability that Shallan has when being "herself".

He even says as much when Shallan blithely speaks of marrying her being a kind of 3-for-1 deal that some men would be eager to have. He doesn't want "just Shallan" meaning "just the part of Shallan that's left after you filtered out the rough and tough bits into Veil and Radiant". He wants a Shallan like she becomes (or is trying to become) at the end of OB, one who uses roleplaying as Veil or Radiant to perform in a role or persona, but knows when the roleplaying is done. "She was occasionally them. But they were not her."

She created those personas to be able to do things she had to do (to spy, to fight, etc.) that were expected of her from others (Ghostbloods and Dalinar and co., respectively) while suppressing aspects of her nature that would get in the way (Vorin lighteyed female protocol, or her softer, more emotional side). She was roleplaying so much in OB that her "alternate selves" were getting equal billing instead of being as-needed. She seems to have that conquered now, but we'll see how it continues.

It could even be approaching a kind of Fourth Ideal level of Truth for Lightweavers. "Whatever else I appear to be, I am still me", or something like that.

[Void89 he/him]

41 minutes ago, robardin said:

She created those personas to be able to do things she had to do (to spy, to fight, etc.) that were expected of her from others (Ghostbloods and Dalinar and co., respectively) while suppressing aspects of her nature that would get in the way (Vorin lighteyed female protocol, or her softer, more emotional side). She was roleplaying so much in OB that her "alternate selves" were getting equal billing instead of being as-needed. She seems to have that conquered now, but we'll see how it continues.

It could even be approaching a kind of Fourth Ideal level of Truth for Lightweavers. "Whatever else I appear to be, I am still me", or something like that.

You quite conveniently forgot about adolin himself there. He made her create radiant after all - I think I already mentioned that somewhere, fracturing her further and not even realizing it.

Yeah he is the perfect loverboy if you ignore some keypieces, they trained together and she called him brightlord kholin and he didn't even flinch, not to mention that he never even suspected that she was at unease while he mentioned her shardblade and training.

Completely oblivious to what she did in kholinar with the spren, more in love with his parties and his new clothes. Let's not forget about killing sadeas in cold blood (sure he earned it but how long did it take before he came clean and why did he do it? Yeah bloodlust and anger, and right - the entire book...) And then trying to push her into kals arms because he is too insecure about her. I'm sure there is more but those are just from the top of my head.

Completely stable, a person worth looking up to...

Then, he was a womanizer who slept his way through half the daughters of alethkar suddenly redeemed himself being the good boy... I guess that's 90% of the fascination people have with him somehow this is a good quality 'to be the one who stops the womanizer womanizing' is something most girls like I guess.

Not saying he is a bad person

But (and that's a big but)

the outright glorification of him being Mr. Right in every way and most people just rolling with the resolve not caring that it just doesn't make sense, that it isn't even remotely a good resolve is just absolute chulldung. 

Seriously at this point I really wish for shallan to realize that she doesn't need a man to be whole. Because that would be way better than what we got here... -.-

[Guest]

1 hour ago, robardin said:

He wants a Shallan like she becomes (or is trying to become) at the end of OB, one who uses roleplaying as Veil or Radiant to perform in a role or persona, but knows when the roleplaying is done. "She was occasionally them. But they were not her."

How do you people always infer that?

All Adolin says is, that he wants the real her (which honestly he also could just have said, because its romantic and he thinks its what he has to say to keep her - something he's still terribly scared about), but what is the real her for him? That is the important point. All he ever saw was exactly the Shallan, where he squeezed her hand. That devout Vorin girl, that likes to draw and quip. He doesn't even have another definition for her, because he always just saw a mask - one that Shallan was making terribly sure to always show him. He obviously doesn't care about Veil. Drinking buddies is like the lowest denomination of friend.

And if Veil really was just a role for Shallan? Why does she become Veil to drink with Adolin? I thought, Veil was just to spy and stuff. Or is Veil really more a fundamental part of Shallan's personality, who actually does like to indulge in alcohol consumption sometimes? Remember that she did so in WoR - without becoming Veil.

1 hour ago, robardin said:

She created those personas to be able to do things she had to do (to spy, to fight, etc.) that were expected of her from others (Ghostbloods and Dalinar and co., respectively) while suppressing aspects of her nature that would get in the way (Vorin lighteyed female protocol, or her softer, more emotional side). She was roleplaying so much in OB that her "alternate selves" were getting equal billing instead of being as-needed. She seems to have that conquered now, but we'll see how it continues.

I agree, that she made the personas/personalities/masks (we don't even have a certain clue what they really are), out of necessity, but the Shallan she's showing the world - and especially Adolin - is just as much a mask. One of the early flashbacks in WoR, right after her killing her mother with Pattern and the following aftermath, begins with "Shallan became the perfect daughter". Sounds familiar right? "Shallan became Veil.", "Shallan became Radiant."

Who is the real Shallan? No idea, but at the danger of seeming confrontational, I'm getting the feeling that everything is getting laid out to be in Adolin's favor.

Edited January 7, 2019 by SLNC

[Quantus he/him]

3 minutes ago, Void89 said:

You quite conveniently forgot about adolin himself there. He made her create radiant after all - I think I already mentioned that somewhere, fracturing her further and not even realizing it.

Devil's Advocate here (as I dont really have a dog in this fight) but I recently hit that part of my re-read and he didnt Make her do anything.  He simply suggested that she learn how to wield her shardblade as a purely practical matter, a path that even Pattern fully supported.  Since she was still having trouble dealing with her own history surrounding that sword, but didnt want to admit that to anyone, she created a persona that could handle the idea without risking a breakdown, rather than facing it herself.  Her choice of coping mechanism is not his fault. 

[Guest]

20 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Devil's Advocate here (as I dont really have a dog in this fight) but I recently hit that part of my re-read and he didnt Make her do anything.  He simply suggested that she learn how to wield her shardblade as a purely practical matter, a path that even Pattern fully supported.  Since she was still having trouble dealing with her own history surrounding that sword, but didnt want to admit that to anyone, she created a persona that could handle the idea without risking a breakdown, rather than facing it herself.  Her choice of coping mechanism is not his fault. 

Fitting user title

But yes, I agree with you there. He was instrumental in the creation of Radiant, but the choice ultimately was Shallan's. However, he also didn't catch, that she was deeply uncomfortable, didn't let her speak before leaving the room and thus did unconsciously exert some pressure on her, which led her to panic.

Edited January 7, 2019 by SLNC

[Quantus he/him]

Just now, SLNC said:

Fitting user title

But yes, I agree with you there. He was instrumental in the creation of Radiant, but the choice ultimately was Shallan's.

Found myself starting a lot of posts that way, so I figured Id embrace it

[Void89 he/him]

1 minute ago, Quantus said:

Devil's Advocate here (as I dont really have a dog in this fight) but I recently hit that part of my re-read and he didnt Make her do anything.  He simply suggested that she learn how to wield her shardblade as a purely practical matter, a path that even Pattern fully supported.  Since she was still having trouble dealing with her own history surrounding that sword, but didnt want to admit that to anyone, she created a persona that could handle the idea without risking a breakdown, rather than facing it herself.  Her choice of coping mechanism is not his fault. 

Read again, there is a whole dialogue before she creates radiant she is sweating and shaking for the most part of it and he just keeps going not even really listening to her...

[Quantus he/him]

3 minutes ago, Void89 said:

Read again, there is a whole dialogue before she creates radiant she is sweating and shaking for the most part of it and he just keeps going not even really listening to her...

Nope, he was already out of the room before she broke down, and was already composed in her new persona by the time he got back.  Yes he was overly enthusiastic and darted off before she finished her "So, you're right, but--" statement, but she never let him see how much it bothered her, before or after. 

[Void89 he/him]

Glad I already quoted that somewhere otherwise I would have searched the book again just to quote this:

Her heart was beating quickly, her skin growing cold her muscles tense. She was fighting the sensation... 'I mean the bridgeboy can have one, and he is darkeyed. Anyway it's not so different than that.' 'Thank you', she thought, 'for ranking every woman equally to peasants' but she held her tounge, this was obviously an important moment for him. He was trying to be broadminded, but thinking of what she'd done pained her - holding the weapon would be worse. So much worse, she wanted to hide but she couldn't. This truth refused to budge from her mind. 'You're right, but -' 'Great, great....'

He interrupted her, didn't pay attention to how she felt and rushed off - but she was tense and clearly shaken up by the thought alone...

If I'd talk about my new puppy I got not knowing that yours died just yesterday not paying attention and rushing off to get it for you to pet it - I come back and you're crying - did you start to cry on your own or because of something I did and me not being empathetic enough?

Not quite the same but the point is clear.