The Diagram - is it deeply illogical?

[Schneeente]

Hey guys and girls, I just read the Stormlight Archives for the second time and in doing so I realized a lot of things that escaped my attention the first time. 

The major "revelation" I had which I am incapable of "explaining away" is the following:

 

We all know that old Tavangian is forbidden to do policy changes when he becomes too dumb or intelligent. Because they have realized that he more intelligent he becomes the less compassionate he gets. I think he wanted to neuter half the population so that only the intelligent half of the population can share their genes. And while you probably would reach the goal of making your population smarter it's deeply ...   morally wrong. 

Another instance was when he was at the tower and had the choir of children singing for him. He was pretty intelligent at that moment (he himself judged him to be a prophet, not a god to the Diagram) and he wanted to kill the children after they served their purpose. For no reason whatsoever. Just because he was suddenly annoyed by their singing iirc.

My point is, if he and his advisors recognize the danger of having someone without a shred of compassion making long term and wide reaching decisions, how can they follow The Diagram at all? Since when he created it he was at his most intelligent "point" and therefore had even less compassion than when he wanted to kill the choir or kids or wanted to neuter half the population. So if they follow their own logic, they should not follow a being utterly devoid of compassion.   

 

 

Second point: I hope so much that the ultra intelligent version of Tavangian had the destruction of Odium in his mind when he created The Diagram. That would be a goal worthy of that intellect, merely saving a fraction of humankind would be ... pathetic. Just sayin'

 

Third point: Directly contradicting the hope I expressed earlier. When Tavangian asked the Nightwatcher for the "capacity" to save humanity it would be soo fitting if his "stupid self" would actually contribute more than his intelligent self. Maybe his privy advisory get killed and he has to make a decision on a "bad day".. 

 

Fourth point: I admit that being super intelligent enables you to do lots of stuff. Buuut I am not sure that raw human intellect let's you rediscover what the Unmades are and where they are. You need to have a lot of knowledge beforehand, and only then he can find coherences. Maybe you could explain the "knowledge growth" by saying that Tavangian read a looot of books in his life and his godlike-intelligent-self deducted tons of new information out of it... maaaaybe. 

 

 

Looking forward to your replies, this forum seems to be very active and I love reading the already existing threads. For example without this forum I would have never realized that it was not Wit who got killed by Moash in the end. 

[Caevita he/him]

There's a lot I don't get about the Diagram, too. With that said, I think I can answer at least one or two of these...

First point: Yeah, the Diagram was made by a complete sociopath. There's not much else I can say here, really.

Second point: Sorry, but we actually know from the epigraphs that Taravangian was aiming for "the essential of Preservation." He couldn't think up a future where Odium was defeated, so he fell back on making sure humanity as a whole didn't go extinct. If that decision frustrates you, good. I'm pretty sure it's supposed to.

Third point: I wonder the same thing. The nightwatcher definitely seems like the type to have an angle here; I'd love to see a moment when Taravangian realizes that his empathy was more important. We'll see, though, trying to guess at the future of a Branderson novel can be trickier than interpreting the Diagram.

Fourth point: ...yeah, I got nothing. Odium specifically says that Taravangian wrote that without any ability to see the future, too. In a theoretical sense, there's nothing wrong with the idea that enough intelligence could deduce things like that. We talk about "randomness," but that's just an illusion. Every natural process is just a matter of cause and effect. A thorough enough understanding of the system you're studying lets you travel up and down that cause and effect chain at will. However, it's also established that Taravangian doesn't understand people's motivations well when he's intelligent, because of his lack of empathy. It seems like that would be a huge block on his ability to make these predictions or inferences, but that's just me.

[Calderis he/him]

Just going to quote an older post of mine here, because it's a thread about Taravangian and The Diagram, and there's nothing I love more.

On 6/24/2018 at 8:47 AM, Calderis said:

Weeeee, Taravangian thread! My favorite.

First thing first, his boon and curse. There is no storming way that this was the Nightwatcher. She couldn't grasp the concept of forgiveness, or why someone would want it. Capacity? And the craziness of this boon/curse? 

Every example given to us of a Nightwatcher boon/curse are two distinct things. A boon, and numb hands. Cloth, and seeing the world upside down. The very way that people speak of a boon and a curse. But in Dalinar we saw a boon and curse intertwined. I think with both Taravangian and Lift we're seeing the same things. Far more complicated, and far more powerful gifts than the Nightwatcher is capable of. Cultivation's work, used with Cultivation's foresight. 

So the Diagram... Is not what it seems to be. Taravangian believes that his interpretations have failed, and there are contingencies and branches. That the further he gets from the day it was made the more it diverges from its accuracy. And yet it was able to foresee the circumstances of him being met with by Odium on a low intelligence day? So much so that it includes details about Odium have agreed to a trial of champions and being unable to confront Dalinar directly any longer? 

Quote

“You need me,” Taravangian whispered.
“I need nobody.”
Taravangian looked up and there, glowing in front of him, was a set of words. A message from himself, in the past. Incredible! Had he somehow seen even this?
Thank you.
He read them out loud. “You have agreed to a battle of champions. You must withdraw to prevent this contest from occurring, and so must not meet with Dalinar Kholin again. Otherwise, he can force you to fight. This means you must let your agents do your work. You need me.”

I don't believe that for a moment. The Diagram has been absolutely accurate up to this point. It's "failures" have steered events precisely. Szeth's slaughter of world leaders created the ground on which the coalition was built. The release of information to undermine the coalition lead directly to Dalinar's desperate situation and rejection of Odium during the battle of Thaylen city which in turn led to the meeting with Odium where he read those words. 

Taravangian on the day of the Diagram laid out this plan to steer his less intelligent self (and even on genius days, he's still far less intelligent) by the nose to follow the true plan he had on that day. That plan did not exist outside of his head. Odium is aware of everything that is in the Diagram, and to have written down the plan would mean to expose it to scrutiny.

The goals of the Diagram are not, and have never been what Taravangian believes. This is not about saving a remnant. This is not capitulation. This is about positioning himself where he can do the most to undermine Odium directly. He is now a "servant" of Odium, ruling one of the most powerful nations on Roshar. Odium believes him to be loyal out of necessity, because Taravangian himself believes that. Which is the entire point. He is a trusted tool of the enemy. It's in that "capacity" that he'll be able to do what needs to be done. 

Or as @RShara likes to put it. "T is a plant" 

 

Edited December 21, 2018 by Calderis

[equinox]

Regarding your fourth point @Schneeente (I like your name btw ) this WoB might help a little: 

Quote

defiantburrito

Taravangian: On his "Special Day" where he created the Diagram, was he actually as smart as he thinks he was, or was something else going on? It seems suspicious that any level of raw intelligence would let him deduce all of that...

Brandon Sanderson

That sure IS suspicious, eh? Let's just say that HE believes it was rational deduction. But other theories are valid.

source

It is not 100% conclusive, but chances are high that Fortune was involved somehow as his high intelligence is linked somehow to the Spiritual Realm (I am not really good at explaining these things, I am sure there are experts here that do much better):

Quote

ShadowSgt [PENDING REVIEW]

Taravangian. When he made the Diagram he said it was "his brightest day". Would you say that he was more towards the Cognitive realm or more towards the Spiritual realm?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Spiritual.

source

Also this:

Quote

Questioner

If Taravangian made the Diagram, and telling the future is of the Voidbringers, is that a bad sign?

Brandon Sanderson

It depends on if you're speaking culturally or actual magically.

Questioner

Magically, I guess.

Brandon Sanderson

Because he would claim to you that he did it all with strength of mind and no magical influence other than enhanced mind. That's what he would tell you. And so in that case it would not be—culturally they'd look very weirdly at it, but spiritually he would say it's not of the Voidbringers.

source

So saying that the creation of the Diagram is based purely on logical deduction allows him to get away with it. Similar as the stormwardens are "allowed" to foretell the future when predicting Highstorms.

[Quantus he/him]

Honestly, my biggest issue with the way they are dealing with and/or using the Diagram is the fact that they are willing to Modify it with Odium's Influence.   It seems like a serious risk to allow Moelach's power to Alter it.

 

@Calderis As to whether Mr.T's Curse was something from the Nightmother or Cultivation Herself, I fully agree with the idea that it seems too powerful and/or Subtle for her given how she was acting in Dalinar's flashback.  The only hesitation I have is that Cultivation told Dalinar he was the first she's come to personally in centuries and I was pretty sure dalinar's trip happened after M.T (yes?).  She could always be lying, or she could have done the work without appearing personally (though if she gave Dalinar a Choice and Chance to say No, it seems like she'd have done the same for Mr.T), or of course I could have the Timeline wrong;  It's doesnt disprove anything, but it is an incongruity that bugs me. 

[Kon-Tiki he/him]

Dalinar visited Cultivation right after Gavilar's death six years prior to the start of WoK. Mr T visited five years prior to the start of WoK

Edited December 21, 2018 by Kon-Tiki
Typo

[StrikerEZ he/him]

2 hours ago, Quantus said:

Honestly, my biggest issue with the way they are dealing with and/or using the Diagram is the fact that they are willing to Modify it with Odium's Influence.   It seems like a serious risk to allow Moelach's power to Alter it.

 

@Calderis As to whether Mr.T's Curse was something from the Nightmother or Cultivation Herself, I fully agree with the idea that it seems too powerful and/or Subtle for her given how she was acting in Dalinar's flashback.  The only hesitation I have is that Cultivation told Dalinar he was the first she's come to personally in centuries and I was pretty sure dalinar's trip happened after M.T (yes?).  She could always be lying, or she could have done the work without appearing personally (though if she gave Dalinar a Choice and Chance to say No, it seems like she'd have done the same for Mr.T), or of course I could have the Timeline wrong;  It's doesnt disprove anything, but it is an incongruity that bugs me. 

The timeline gets really close at that point because both Dalinar and King T went to the Nightwatcher after Gavilar died. So, we don’t really know when King T went, but I could easily see him going some time after Dalinar went, which would mean that Cultivation was telling the truth to Dalinar, and then also intervened for Taravangian.

The Diagram and Tarvangian’s boon/curse just seems to perfect and complex to simply be the result of the Nightwatcher.

[Quantus he/him]

3 minutes ago, StrikerEZ said:

The timeline gets really close at that point because both Dalinar and King T went to the Nightwatcher after Gavilar died. So, we don’t really know when King T went, but I could easily see him going some time after Dalinar went, which would mean that Cultivation was telling the truth to Dalinar, and then also intervened for Taravangian.

Ah, cool.

3 minutes ago, StrikerEZ said:

The Diagram and Tarvangian’s boon/curse just seems to perfect and complex to simply be the result of the Nightwatcher.

If it's intentional, yes.  Though it does have her flair for corrupting their desire via a bad choice of words (not specifying "at the same time") so I could see her doing it without the full knowledge of where it might lead him.  And that would not itself preclude Cultivation planning for it and having a strategy, it would just mean she was one more step removed and was using the Nightwatcher.  His would have been a boon the Nightwatcher could understand, which I think is the difference between Mr.T and Dalinar.  Dalinar didnt really come with a "Boon" in mind, "Forgiveness" wasnt something the Nightwatcher could really grasp (Cultivation said she lets the Nightwatcher hold court to better understand Humans), which I think could have been the reason she wanted to talk to Dalinar directly, she had to discuss things with him to arrive at an actual Boon, which ultimately was to be free of the guilt-screams, at the cost of all ability to recall is wife (not just a purge of memory but an inability to be told more).

[StrikerEZ he/him]

3 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Ah, cool.

If it's intentional, yes.  Though it does have her flair for corrupting their desire via a bad choice of words (not specifying "at the same time") so I could see her doing it without the full knowledge of where it might lead him.  And that would not itself preclude Cultivation planning for it and having a strategy, it would just mean she was one more step removed and was using the Nightwatcher.  His would have been a boon the Nightwatcher could understand, which I think is the difference between Mr.T and Dalinar.  Dalinar didnt really come with a "Boon" in mind, "Forgiveness" wasnt something the Nightwatcher could really grasp (Cultivation said she lets the Nightwatcher hold court to better understand Humans), which I think could have been the reason she wanted to talk to Dalinar directly, she had to discuss things with him to arrive at an actual Boon, which ultimately was to be free of the guilt-screams, at the cost of all ability to recall is wife (not just a purge of memory but an inability to be told more).

My thing is that I think that if the Nightwatcher couldn’t understand how to make forgivenesss a boon, how the hell would she be able to understand capacity as a boon?

[What's a Seawolf?]

1 hour ago, StrikerEZ said:

My thing is that I think that if the Nightwatcher couldn’t understand how to make forgivenesss a boon, how the hell would she be able to understand capacity as a boon?

I'm firmly in the camp that believes Cultivation intervened with Mr. T, but just to throw something out there...is it possible Dalinar's request of forgiveness and the Nightwatcher's utter confusion caused the Nightwatcher to seek out 'human' things she was not aware of?  And then thanks to a crash course via Cultivation or something else, the Nightwatcher gave it a rudimentary go with Mr. T?

Maybe it was even a Syl/Stormfather-esque 'I don't know this thing until I know it.  Then I've always known it.'

 

Again, just trying to throw out ideas to how it could still have been the Nightwatcher.

[Greywatch she/her]

@Calderis I can't believe I hadn't seen that original post, but god if it didn't just give me chills! 

[Quantus he/him]

1 hour ago, StrikerEZ said:

My thing is that I think that if the Nightwatcher couldn’t understand how to make forgivenesss a boon, how the hell would she be able to understand capacity as a boon?

Forgiveness, at least how Dalinar was asking, is all bound up in social concepts like morality, which sound like they are beyond her, or at least not something she naturally gets, and since she's probably all Cultivation that makes sense as those would be more Honor things.  By contrast all she did to Mr.T was give him linked, feruchemy-style slider bars on the two traits he requested: Intelligence and Empathy.  She could have easily done that; whether or not she understood the full, long-term consequences and/or possibilities is a different question.  And while I dont know the exact nature and limitations of her interaction with Cultivation, I tend to credit Cultivation as likely having the most developed Future Sight of all the Shards we know (since she's fundamentally focused on the future of the rest of the Cosmere) so if anyone at all could have arranged such a thing well in advance it would be her.  She wouldnt have to explain the details to the Nightwatcher, and the Nightwatcher would probably like the symmetry of the Curse being the split Boon. 

 

Separately, I tend to think the other Boons & Curses are more connected than they appear, and likely have a similar issue where they come down to twisting the literal wording of the request. 

 

 

[Ripheus23]

13 hours ago, Schneeente said:

Fourth point: I admit that being super intelligent enables you to do lots of stuff. Buuut I am not sure that raw human intellect let's you rediscover what the Unmades are and where they are. You need to have a lot of knowledge beforehand, and only then he can find coherences. Maybe you could explain the "knowledge growth" by saying that Tavangian read a looot of books in his life and his godlike-intelligent-self deducted tons of new information out of it... maaaaybe. 

Actually, Cultivation allowed Taravangian to glimpse a parallel reality where the Cosmere is a series of books with a Cognitive-Realm machine-based analytic community devoted to predicting the future of the books. By a concerted application of so-called Arcana and a Feruchemical repository, Mr. T combined all the theories of the community to arrive at the Diagram.

There's actually a website in the real world that is a simulation of the analytic group, I will spoiler-tag it just in case: 

Spoiler

https://www.17thshard.com/

Hope that helps!

[Solant he/him]

The other difference between capacity and forgiveness is the person being changed in the equation. To grant capacity, she only need change the person asking. To actually grant forgiveness would be to change the way someone else feels about the person asking. I can't think of any examples of a boon/bane directly affecting someone other than the person asking. For all we know, the request could actually be a requirement for the night watchers magic to work.

Just something to consider.

[Calderis he/him]

38 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Separately, I tend to think the other Boons & Curses are more connected than they appear, and likely have a similar issue where they come down to twisting the literal wording of the request.

We're explicitly told that that isn't the case. 

Quote

“I could phrase my request perfectly,” Baxil said.“Doesn’t work that way,” Av said. “It’s not a game, no matter how the stories try to put it. The Nightwatcher doesn’t trick you or twist your words. You ask a boon. She gives what she feels you deserve, then gives you a curse to go along with it. Sometimes related, sometimes not.”

Yes it's in story, but considering it's literally the most informative (well, only informative) section we have, I tend to trust it. 

2 hours ago, Greywatch said:

@Calderis I can't believe I hadn't seen that original post, but god if it didn't just give me chills! 

Glad you liked it, Grey! 

3 hours ago, StrikerEZ said:

My thing is that I think that if the Nightwatcher couldn’t understand how to make forgivenesss a boon, how the hell would she be able to understand capacity as a boon?

It's also that it's specific. It's not just "make. Me more capable" it's "grant me the capacity to save the world from what's coming. The capacity to save humankind." which is a lot more complicated than the just a set of slider bars IMO. 

6 hours ago, Quantus said:

The only hesitation I have is that Cultivation told Dalinar he was the first she's come to personally in centuries and I was pretty sure dalinar's trip happened after M.T (yes?).

Taravangian's suspicious malady that hid his trip happened 5 years ago.

Dalinar's flashback to the Valley is the only instance in the flashbacks in any of the books that we are given a "and a half" with Five and a half years ago. 

I think the extra half year is intentional. 

[Quantus he/him]

52 minutes ago, Calderis said:

We're explicitly told that that isn't the case. 

Yes it's in story, but considering it's literally the most informative (well, only informative) section we have, I tend to trust it. 

 

For the purpose of this topic, "Sometimes they are" is good enough for me, in that it establishes that it's not out of character for the Nightwatcher to grant intertwined Boons & Curses. Especially in the case of that story, as it's from somebody who apparently comes from a community that goes to her pretty often and so he has a reasonable, and recent, sample size.

 

52 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Taravangian's suspicious malady that hid his trip happened 5 years ago.

Dalinar's flashback to the Valley is the only instance in the flashbacks in any of the books that we are given a "and a half" with Five and a half years ago. 

I think the extra half year is intentional. 

Agreed on both points. I didnt have any idea where the two fell on the timeline. Thanks.

[Schneeente]

Hey, I hope I'm not a grave-digger when I revive my own thread!  

 

Your replies have been very interesting but mainly you have focused on my doubt that "raw human intellect" could have created the Diagram. And I see what you wrote, he thinks it was his pure genius but there might have been going on a lot more. 

 

Also I very much like @Calderis idea that the plan of the Diagram was all along to plant a ... ally that might not be an ally ... into Odiums ranks. But I do not agree with the proof you offered for that conclusion. That in hindsight some actions of the Diagram had a "positive" outcome is no proof because we don't have any certainty what might have happened without the interference with the Diagram. Also using a whole lot of people without them realizing it and hoping that they will betray the Diagram at a precisely pre-determined moment ..  veeery convoluted.

 

I'm not saying that I don't wait for the moment that the low-IQ-Taravangian with supposedly zero capacity is saving the world!  Buut that the Diagram is working towards this.. whew. On the other hand, that Odium will look at the Diagram and understand it better than the humans working with it, that is probably something he would have seen coming and thus it is reasonable to assume that he didn't lay out his real plan in a "document" that can be viewed by his enemy. (that assumes he is considering Odium an opponent, what I really really hope)

 

 

----

 

Apart from all that, my main concern that the "rules of the Diagram" are deeply illogical were not addressed. From neither of you!

 

Taravangian's "group" has figured out that he is not capable / trustworthy enough to make policy changes when he is too smart. Because he so obvious lacks compassion that his proposed policy changes are ... mad. But nevertheless they follow his "masterplan" that was created when he was so intelligent that (now) he wouldn't be allowed to leave his room. Isn't that an inherent contradiction?  

[Pathfinder]

51 minutes ago, Schneeente said:

Hey, I hope I'm not a grave-digger when I revive my own thread!  

 

Your replies have been very interesting but mainly you have focused on my doubt that "raw human intellect" could have created the Diagram. And I see what you wrote, he thinks it was his pure genius but there might have been going on a lot more. 

 

Also I very much like @Calderis idea that the plan of the Diagram was all along to plant a ... ally that might not be an ally ... into Odiums ranks. But I do not agree with the proof you offered for that conclusion. That in hindsight some actions of the Diagram had a "positive" outcome is no proof because we don't have any certainty what might have happened without the interference with the Diagram. Also using a whole lot of people without them realizing it and hoping that they will betray the Diagram at a precisely pre-determined moment ..  veeery convoluted.

 

I'm not saying that I don't wait for the moment that the low-IQ-Taravangian with supposedly zero capacity is saving the world!  Buut that the Diagram is working towards this.. whew. On the other hand, that Odium will look at the Diagram and understand it better than the humans working with it, that is probably something he would have seen coming and thus it is reasonable to assume that he didn't lay out his real plan in a "document" that can be viewed by his enemy. (that assumes he is considering Odium an opponent, what I really really hope)

 

 

----

 

Apart from all that, my main concern that the "rules of the Diagram" are deeply illogical were not addressed. From neither of you!

 

Taravangian's "group" has figured out that he is not capable / trustworthy enough to make policy changes when he is too smart. Because he so obvious lacks compassion that his proposed policy changes are ... mad. But nevertheless they follow his "masterplan" that was created when he was so intelligent that (now) he wouldn't be allowed to leave his room. Isn't that an inherent contradiction?  

Not saying this is good or right, but I believe the logic behind it, or at least as much as I reason it, is this:

Take a chess set where the man in this example will go first. Place an unintelligent man in front of a chess set and he may get lucky. Place an intelligent man in front of a chess set, and his decisions may be more informed but error is still possible at thinking too short term/short sighted. Place a supremely intelligent man in front of a chess set, and he has already won before the first move was made. 

Edited September 23, 2020 by Pathfinder

[+robardin he/him]

On 12/21/2018 at 0:53 AM, Calderis said:

Just going to quote an older post of mine here, because it's a thread about Taravangian and The Diagram, and there's nothing I love more.

I would totally be on board with Mr. T's Twiddle having been done, like Dalinar's, as a long game "careful pruning" operation of Cultivation herself. Subvert Odium's intended champion on the one side, while building up an apparent tool for him that will turn and bite him when the time is right in Taravangian on the other side.

The only thing is, when did Taravangian visit the Nightwatcher to ask for "capacity... to save mankind from what is to come"? Was it after Dalinar's visit for "forgiveness?"

Because no less a figure than Cultivation herself said when appearing to Dalinar, THIS IS THE FIRST TIME IN CENTURIES I'VE COME PERSONALLY TO SPEAK WITH ONE OF YOU.

...Actually, a bit of searching shows that it's straight up given as a WoB  that was the Mother herself:

Quote

Kfirw

Did Taravangian meet the Nightwatcher? Or Cultivation?

Brandon Sanderson

Cultivation. Good question.

Tel Aviv Signing (Oct. 18, 2019)

I guess that also means that Dalinar's visit predated Taravangian's!

[IllNsickly he/him]

I think the goals of The Diagram are illogical. Especially from 3rd Person Removed. Unless you you consider Dalinar and Cultivation and how She ‘Gave’ him his curse and his boon. 
 

Cultivation actually said ‘This may give him a weapon’ when she granted Dalinar his boon/curse. I think Something very similar happened with Taravangian and that however his Epiphany happened, it could very easily be a double edged sword.

I am not great at Theorycrafting, but the group called ‘The Diagram’ is following’The Diagram’ based on interpretation and that is a very fluid thing that actually runs counter to what they think they are doing.

Does any of that make any sense at all?

[Calderis he/him]

4 hours ago, robardin said:

I guess that also means that Dalinar's visit predated Taravangian's!

Yep. Taravangian's "illness" that covered his trip to the Nightwatcher was "5 years ago" in OB. 

Dalinar's trip to the Nightwatcher? It is the only flashback in the series to have a partial year indicator. 

5 1/2 years. 

[+ILuvHats he/him]

On 9/23/2020 at 2:43 PM, Schneeente said:

Taravangian's "group" has figured out that he is not capable / trustworthy enough to make policy changes when he is too smart. Because he so obvious lacks compassion that his proposed policy changes are ... mad. But nevertheless they follow his "masterplan" that was created when he was so intelligent that (now) he wouldn't be allowed to leave his room. Isn't that an inherent contradiction?  

I’ll address this as directly as I can. I’m sure the Diagram (the group) is aware of how sociopathic Taravangian must have been on his day of god level intelligence. They simply see it as irrelevant. After all, the plans laid out in the Diagram are ruthless in the extreme, involving the orchestration of hundreds of thousands of deaths in the Jah Keved civil war as only one step in the plan. However, the Diagram asserts that its goal is the salvation of humanity; saving humans as a species. While Taravangian may not have been capable of compassion that day, he was apparently interested in preserving his species as a platonic and logical goal, not because he felt sympathy for all the humans who would die, but because preserving one’s species is the ultimate evolutionary goal. As Taravangian’s group sees it, they have no choice but to trust in the Diagram in order to save humanity. In the early days, they were given no reason to doubt the Diagram’s assertion that following it was the only way to prevent humanity’s destruction. Even now that the coalition seems to have a fighting chance, admitting their choice to follow the Diagram was wrong means admitting everyone they killed was killed for no reason whatsoever. 

Also, it’s not as though there wasn’t a logic to the Diagram’s supposed plan which confirmed its goal was to save humanity. In his conversation with Odium, Taravangian reveals their interpretation of the Diagram was that it aimed to make Taravangian king of everything so that when he made a deal with Odium to save everyone he ruled, it would save all of humanity. The logic confirmed the Diagram’s intentions to Taravangian’s group, so they don’t doubt it.

So why does the group follow the Diagram even though they won’t let smart Taravangian make policy changes on smart days? It’s simple. They don’t agree that the goals of many of these policy changes are worth employing the methods suggested. While increasing the intelligence of the population is laudable, the group doesn’t agree that employing eugenics to do so is moral, because it will cause more harm than good. However, the Diagram’s core tenet is that all when it comes to saving humanity, all else pales in comparison. It is impossible to go too far, to cause too much pain and suffering in seeking such a goal, because the alternative, the death of humanity, will always be worse. Does that answer your question?

Edited October 1, 2020 by ILuvHats

[+robardin he/him]

2 hours ago, ILuvHats said:

I’ll address this as directly as I can. I’m sure the Diagram (the group) is aware of how sociopathic Taravangian must have been on his day of god level intelligence. They simply see it as irrelevant. After all, the plans laid out in the Diagram are ruthless in the extreme, involving the orchestration of hundreds of thousands of deaths in the Jah Keved civil war as only one step in the plan. However, the Diagram asserts that its goal is the salvation of humanity; saving humans as a species. While Taravangian may not have been capable of compassion that day, he was apparently interested in preserving his species as a platonic and logical goal, not because he felt sympathy for all the humans who would die, but because preserving one’s species is the ultimate evolutionary goal. As Taravangian’s group sees it, they have no choice but to trust in the Diagram in order to save humanity. In the early days, they were given no reason to doubt the Diagram’s assertion that following it was the only way to prevent humanity’s destruction. Even now that the coalition seems to have a fighting chance, admitting their choice to follow the Diagram was wrong means admitting everyone they killed was killed for no reason whatsoever. 

Also, it’s not as though there wasn’t a logic to the Diagram’s supposed plan which confirmed its goal was to save humanity. In his conversation with Odium, Taravangian reveals their interpretation of the Diagram was that it aimed to make Taravangian king of everything so that when he made a deal with Odium to save everyone he ruled, it would save all of humanity. The logic confirmed the Diagram’s intentions to Taravangian’s group, so they don’t doubt it.

So why does the group follow the Diagram even though they won’t let smart Taravangian make policy changes on smart days? It’s simple. They don’t agree that the goals of many of these policy changes are worth employing the methods suggested. While increasing the intelligence of the population is laudable, the group doesn’t agree that employing eugenics to do so is moral, because it will cause more harm than good. However, the Diagram’s core tenet is that all when it comes to saving humanity, all else pales in comparison. It is impossible to go too far, to cause too much pain and suffering in seeking such a goal, because the alternative, the death of humanity, will always be worse. Does that answer your question?

Pretty well put - particularly the part in red.

By now, I'm sure at least some followers of the Diagram - if Taravangian has told them of the deal he swung with Odium, and if they're not from Kharbranth and thus their families and homes are essentially being left as sacrifices on the altar - are having a few second thoughts about if this is truly the "only way to save humanity" given that several things the Diagram forecast have not come to pass. The "entrench deeper and double down" instinct in human psychology is very strong, however.

And if you ARE from Kharbranth, as the highest Diagram members like Adrotagia and Malata and I think Dukar are (Mrall being the exception... As a surprisingly, perhaps suspiciously hairless Thaylen...), you're basically playing with house money now. Odium wins, you and yours are relatively safe; if Team Dalinar wins, well, I'm sure they wouldn't destroy Kharbranth just because Taravangian and a small secret society plotted stuff, would they?

Edited October 1, 2020 by robardin