Contrary to Conventional Wisdom…

[Confused]

 

On 12/3/2018 at 6:09 AM, Kramerfarve said:

What the Fused are doing is not necessarily  voidbinding. Many think it is merely a hack of surgebinding, and that voidbinding has not been seen in a large scale besides through Renarin’s weird situation.

Voidbinding and Surgebinding are separate systems that grant similar abilities. Three WoBs state the means of accessing Investiture defines the magic system, not what the magic can do. I explain why Fused Voidbind in this post and this post. The OP includes this theory because many do agree with you.

Most magic systems grant similar abilities. “Honor doesn’t belong to gravity…Honor accesses gravity [by making] a bond between yourself and either a thing or a direction.” Fused don’t accelerate or shift direction as well as Windrunners because (IMO) they don’t access the gravity Surge by lashing (a form of bond).

On 12/3/2018 at 11:31 AM, MountainKing said:

I don't see why investiture can't be throughout the universe, why must it only be in the Cosmere

Investiture may be elsewhere in the universe, but as @Quantus points out, those other “places” must be completely cut off from the cosmere. To comply with thermodynamics’ first law, the cosmere must be a closed system, with no ability to access any other matter, energy, or Investiture. (FWIW, I still fear the cosmere is a Perfect State computer simulation in which the virtual beings killed the one human – Adonalsium.)

Though “location” isn’t an internal Spiritual Realm property, the cosmere’s SR – as a whole – may occupy a “place” with its own cosmere location. We know SR Investiture has mass and flow. Otherwise, it would not press down on Roshar’s CR and drip Investiture into it. Even if the SR is just a computer that keeps tabs on cosmere data, that computer must exist somewhere. The cosmere can be a self-contained, thermodynamic-compliant system within a larger universe whose stars you see.

On 12/3/2018 at 6:41 PM, Calderis said:

As you say, color is the fuel. It is consumed to fuel a command, which Awakens the breath to act. It may not be quite so simple though. If Brandon holds to this, then breath would also be consumed at a slow rate, and be the reason we don't see perpetual awakened tools wandering around. 

I did not say color is Awakening’s fuel. I said “something about color draining” fuels Awakening. (I was trying to avoid controversy.) I believe Awakening doesn’t drain “color” – visible electromagnetic radiation (EMR). Instead, Awakening drains absorbed EMR. Color doesn’t exist as such. Color is how the eye perceives reflected light. A colored object absorbs and holds the electromagnetic radiation (EMR) wavelengths that don’t reflect light.

Two recent WoBs IMO confirm this theory. (Shout out to @RShara for bringing these to my attention - even though she still disagrees with my interpretation of them!) One says it’s possible to Awaken in “total darkness.”             

Quote

R'Shara [PENDING REVIEW]

Can you Awaken in total darkness; no light whatsoever?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

This is possible.

Source.

My theory predicts you should be able to Awaken in darkness – by draining unseen, previously absorbed EMR. Even when you can’t see color, the object’s absorbed EMR remains attached to it. Here’s the second WoB:

Quote

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

If you shine a red light on a white wall, could you use the color from that to Awaken?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Ooh, good question! I would say you would end up leeching the color out of the lightbulb that you were shining through.

Source.

The wall’s color is reflected light. Because the wall is white, there’s no absorbed EMR to drain from it (unless you’re Susebron). The bulb’s tint, however, means the glass absorbs wavelengths other than red. An Awakener should be able to “leach” the absorbed EMR, causing the bulb to stop making red.

More on Awakening:

Spoiler

I believe the absorbed EMR is a Catalyst that summons Spiritual Realm Investiture. IMO, the summoned SR Investiture is Awakening’s fuel. I think “color-drained” objects turn gray because Awakening sucks out their Investiture to draw SR power. That implies the absorbed EMR itself is Invested.

Turning gray in other contexts means Investiture loss, like Shardblade cuts. Endowment’s magic seems especially associated with Investiture loss: Azure’s blade turns its victims’ corpses’ gray; and without another source, Nightblood drains Investiture from its holders, leaving them gray-streaked. Rosharan Awakening causes gems to lose their color and function. All of which suggests Awakening consumes Investiture when it “drains color” to fuel object animation.

I read your 2007 WoB to mean animated objects require more Investiture the longer or more intensely they stay animated. While there’s a flow of Invested EMR (“color draining”), there’s no problem. But if an Awakener cuts off the Investiture flow (stops “draining color”) before the object finishes fulfilling its command, the object will seek another Investiture source. It will consume Breath instead. And because Breaths are indivisible, the object will consume a whole Breath.

This is how Nightblood works. To keep destroying evil, Nightblood needs a steady flow of Investiture. When he runs out of Breaths or Stormlight, he will pull from his holder’s internal Investiture. Hence, Szeth’s and Lift’s gray streaks.

On Sand Mastery's Focus:

On 12/3/2018 at 6:41 PM, Calderis said:

Water is a proposed focus because we don't know what Taldains focus is. I actually think that plants are the more likely of the too. The lichen are what Sand Mastery accesses and all Sand Master's have the same power. 

I agree all Sand Masters have the same power, the power to animate sand like Awakening animates objects. Like Awakening, I believe Sand Masters visualize commands to the lichen through their “brief Cognitive bond.” Those commands “shape” how the lichen configure the sand and, IMO, are Sand Mastery’s Focus. FWIW, Nalthis and Taldain are the only known single-Shard major Shardworlds, and (IMO) they share visualized commands as their Focus.

More on Sand Mastery and Taldain:

Spoiler

Khriss in AU (Kindle, pp. 369-370) tells us how Sand Mastery works:

1. Solar energy carries Autonomy’s Investiture to Taldain.

2. Water causes uncontrolled microflora growth.

3. Sand Masters body water forges a “brief Cognitive bond” with the microflora.

4. Sand Masters draw Spiritual Realm Investiture to “control the sand.”

Conclusion: Sand Masters draw SR Investiture that mingles with their body water. When Masters dehydrate, the microflora detect and absorb the Masters’ Invested body water. The Invested water forges the Cognitive bond between the Master and the microflora while simultaneously causing growth. Through their link, the Master directs the microflora to configure the sand.

The “magic” of Sand Mastery is the Cognitive bond that enables the Master to control microflora growth. Autonomy’s magic on FotS also forges a Cognitive bond between trappers and Aviar, and FotS’ animal life hunt by sensing thoughts.

On 12/3/2018 at 6:41 PM, Calderis said:

A power on darkside may be access through a different (or multiple) flora and provide a different power(s) 

I agree with this. Investiture-carrying sunlight beats down on Taldain and Invests its oceans. The planetary water cycle circulates this Investiture everywhere, including Darkside. Brandon says, “Taldain would not be bad” as a place like Roshar where Vasher can readily survive without Breath. The reason, I believe, is Breath’s similarity to Invested water vapor. Like Stormlight on Roshar, Taldain’s water cycle keeps the Invested water vapor “flowing around all over the place.”

Dayside gets more Investiture from direct sunlight. Darkside’s lower Investiture ecosystem and different solar energy source should cause unique magical adaptations with different flora and powers.

On Roshar's Magic Systems:

On 12/3/2018 at 6:41 PM, Calderis said:

Except a Nahel bond is a means of access through a mixture of Honor and Cultivation, the spren themselves.

Honor’s Nahel bond is the means of access that defines Surgebinding. Cultivation’s spren are the Surgebinding Focus that “shapes the magic.” Spren transform Stormlight into the power they personify. But the Surgebinder can’t access that power or touch spren at all until Honor’s Nahel bond is in place.

My rough analogy: the Nahel bond is like a gun and the spren are like bullets. The Surgebinder holds the gun and pulls the trigger. But without the spren bullets, nothing happens. The gun provides access to the bullets, but it isn’t the bullets. And each Radiant’s spren bullet Focuses a different magical ability.

Fabrials also rely on spren transforming Stormlight into the power they personify. But there’s no bond between a fabrial and its user. Nor is spren enslavement a voluntary bond: “Honor is the sense of being bound by rules, even when those rules, you wouldn't have to be bound by.” IOW, fabrials use the same “bullets” (spren) as Surgebinding but a different “gun” as its means of access. Brandon says the “gun” defines the magic system, not the bullets.

[Cal, I now agree Stormlight directly fuels spren-based magic, but that’s because Cultivation’s primal force is Transformation (Brandon’s word for mass-energy-Investiture conversion). I still believe the mists and other PR Investitures summon Spiritual Realm power “like a metal” and don’t convert into power.]

On 12/3/2018 at 6:41 PM, Calderis said:

As per our recent discord conversation, this is not one thing or the other. The intent are both. Personality and primal forces merged. The focus of theorizing has been mainly on the personality aspects, because we can attempt to figure that out in most cases from the way they have been described... But the forces that they are tied to? Even what when we have been told what they represent... Being bound by rules is a primal force for honor? What primal force is Autonomy, or Ambition, or Endowment? 

Disregarding either half is incorrect, but theorizing on the forces is much much more difficult.

I agree we need to consider both personality and primal force and have argued that. I do think we can figure out a Shard’s primal force and make my best guesses in the following Spoiler. “Primal force” does seem a poor descriptor, unless you translate “primal force” into “means of access.”

Taking the Primal Force Challenge on Honor, Ambition, Endowment, and Autonomy:

Spoiler

Honor

Brandon says Honor’s primal force is bonds. The Nahel bond is how Honor gives magic to mortals, and mortals bind Surges through bonds: “the way Honor accesses gravity is, you make a bond between yourself and either a thing or a direction or things like that and you go.”

I think Fused who Voidbind the gravity Surge don’t use lashings (despite what Kaladin thinks in-world). The Fused instead break their Connection to gravity. They use less fuel as they lope through the air. The Fused rise and fall IMO by selectively restoring their gravity Connection the way Kaladin adjusts his lashings. Kaladin’s lashings are like driving a Formula 1 car – constant speed changes and sharp turns at a steep fuel cost.

Ambition

Ambition is impossible to know. My head canon associates Ambition with “conquest,” given that Uli Da was Sho Del and fainlife seems to overcome native life forms.

Endowment

I believe Endowment’s primal force is quantum physics. Photons are a quantum of light (visible EMR). Indivisible Breaths are a quantum of Investiture. The Heightenings are the quantization of Breaths – a “continuous set of values” (because of Breath variability) turned into a discrete set of values. Awakeners access Endowment’s magic through Breath quanta and (IMO) drain absorbed EMR (photons) to perform their magic.

Brandon says Endowment wants Nalthians to make a market in Breaths. Breaths are native only to Nalthians but anyone can hold and benefit from them cosmere-wide. As Breath monopoly holders, Nalthians will generate “infinite” riches. I believe the Endowment Vessel’s personality chooses to access Investiture through its quantum physics Connection to form and build her magic market.

Autonomy

Posters describe the Autonomy Shard as freedom, independence, self-reliance, and self-sufficiency. Here’s what we know about Autonomy:

1. Autonomy has Invested Taldain and created an Avatar on FotS. She has created other Avatars. Roshar holds a deposit of her “assigned Investiture.”

2. Taldain, FotS, and Roshar are mostly water worlds.

3. On Taldain, Autonomy Invests the oceans through solar energy. I concur with those who believe Bavadin is a dragon. Metaphorically, she’s breathes fire onto the planet.

4. Autonomy raised the Patji archipelago from the ocean floor. The process to me seems similar to how Adonalsium raised the Rosharan continent through fractal mathematics:

Quote

Fractals and mathematical functions…stuck with me as feeling perfect for Roshar. As the continent was specifically grown by Adonalsium, you now know the seed that was used in-world to create it.

Source.

Somebody built this using [fractal] mathematics…They said "Oh. Boom. Bing!" and grew themselves a continent.

Source.

It is supposed to mean something in world; that Roshar was grown with a mathematical equation.

Source.

5. Sand Mastery and the Aviar involve Cognitive bonds with lifeforms. Patji’s predators hunt by sensing thoughts.

6. On the AU constellation map, a Rosharan knight confronts a dragon encompassing the Scar. I think the dragon represents Autonomy. Does this foreshadow plot?

Adding it up gives us a fire-breathing dragon who Invests water with solar energy and creates Cognitive bonds, archipelagos, and Avatars. Hmmm…

I think Autonomy’s primal force Connection is fractals. To me, there’s too much similarity between Roshar’s continent and the Patji archipelago. IMO, Brandon’s mention of Autonomy’s assigned Investiture on Roshar refers to the continent. I believe the Sibling is the Singers’ Spren of Stone, which might be a nascent Autonomy Avatar.

Fractals appear naturally in rock (Roshar) and sand (Taldain) and other natural forms. Are Autonomy’s Avatars fractals – scalable versions of the Shard? Perhaps all Autonomy splinters are fractals. Maybe Kenton gains in power because he attracts more, or grows larger versions, of the Autonomy fractals that make him a Sand Master.

Until we know more, I’m sticking with fractals as Autonomy’s primal force Connection. Tepidly…

 

Edited December 6, 2018 by Confused
To acknowledge R'Shara's response.

[RShara]

I really disagree with your interpretation of those WoBs, as you know. But let's not get into that again

[Ripheus23]

3 hours ago, Confused said:

To comply with thermodynamics’ first law, the cosmere must be a closed system, with no ability to access any other matter, energy, or Investiture.

This isn't so, or else the 1st Law of Thermodynamics wouldn't apply to the real universe in the first place. Secondly, the mere fact that people can see stars from outside the Cosmere, disproves the no-access idea, since photons from those stars must be radiating into the Cosmere.

EDIT:

Also, gravitons from outside the Cosmere must affect the curvature of space inside the Cosmere, since gravity is universalish like that.

Edited December 6, 2018 by Ripheus23

[Scion of the Mists]

19 hours ago, Confused said:

I did not say color is Awakening’s fuel. I said “something about color draining” fuels Awakening. (I was trying to avoid controversy.) I believe Awakening doesn’t drain “color” – visible electromagnetic radiation (EMR). Instead, Awakening drains absorbed EMR. Color doesn’t exist as such. Color is how the eye perceives reflected light. A colored object absorbs and holds the electromagnetic radiation (EMR) wavelengths that don’t reflect light.

When a colored object reflects some wavelengths and absorbs others, it doesn't store the absorbed light forever - it gets turned into heat and is dissipated.  So there's no reservoir of "absorbed EMR" for Awakening to use as fuel.  

[Quantus]

16 hours ago, Ripheus23 said:

This isn't so, or else the 1st Law of Thermodynamics wouldn't apply to the real universe in the first place.

How do you mean?  Being an isolated system is very much part of the First Law of Thermodynamics in the real world. 

[Fezzik]

2 hours ago, Quantus said:

How do you mean?  Being an isolated system is very much part of the First Law of Thermodynamics in the real world. 

Yes. Our universe, the closed system is the entire universe, confused was saying that doesn't hold in the cosmere and that the dwarf galaxy cosmere is a closed system itself.

[Quantus]

53 minutes ago, Ookla the Terrible said:

Yes. Our universe, the closed system is the entire universe, confused was saying that doesn't hold in the cosmere and that the dwarf galaxy cosmere is a closed system itself.

We are agreed on that part, it was @Ripheus23 that said Confused was incorrect  in that statement "or else the 1st Law of Thermodynamics wouldn't apply to the real universe in the first place", which is what I was asking for clarification on.  Since the First Law of Thermodynamics (and it's more general form The Conservation of Energy) does hole true in the real world as far as Science can tell, I cannot figure out what Riph was trying to say. 
 

[Calderis]

31 minutes ago, Quantus said:

We are agreed on that part, it was @Ripheus23 that said Confused was incorrect  in that statement "or else the 1st Law of Thermodynamics wouldn't apply to the real universe in the first place", which is what I was asking for clarification on.  Since the First Law of Thermodynamics (and it's more general form The Conservation of Energy) does hole true in the real world as far as Science can tell, I cannot figure out what Riph was trying to say. 
 

The analogy of the cosmere being a closed system though, would be like saying that the milky way is a closed system. 

That's not the case.

[Quantus]

8 minutes ago, Calderis said:

The analogy of the cosmere being a closed system though, would be like saying that the milky way is a closed system. 

That's not the case.

 

Ok, then it seems like we've come full circle: 

Either the Cosmere is a Closed System and Brandon's statement that the 1st Law applies to the Cosmere (defined as a Dwarf Cluster) is valid, or else the WOB that says as much is Incorrect (or possibly Incomplete, given the unknown 4th Law) in the face of evidence that there is more universe visible to Shardworlds than just the ~100 stars in such a cluster, since the starlight alone would constitute outside energy Input.   

That about sum up the two sides/possibilities?

 

[Ripheus23]

4 hours ago, Quantus said:

Being an isolated system is very much part of the First Law of Thermodynamics in the real world. 

"Isolated" is a relative term. Let's put it this way (which is still philosophically contentious, though): even if there is no uranium in a given galaxy, it's still a law of physics in that galaxy that if there was uranium, then... whatever the facts of uranium are. Indeed, even if all uranium in the universe ceased to exist, the laws of uranium physics would still exist, let us suppose. Likewise, though there are no absolutely closed systems in the universe (not even the universe itself, given the multiverse), there are relatively closed ones.

But anyway it's not entirely relevant since the Cosmere is certainly not an absolutely closed system and, as per the influx of photons from other parts of the universe, it's not even relatively closed.

EDIT: I think the 1st Law applies to the Cosmere not because the Cosmere is a closed system, but because it contains some closed systems and is part of a (relatively) closed one.

Edited December 7, 2018 by Ripheus23