Elantris interstellar teleportation

[Rossamund]

We know that we'll eventually see FTL travel be developed, probably using time bubbles to achieve speeds a few times faster than the speed of light. This while fast would still mean that journeys take months or years. However we've seen teleportation on Elantris and Roshar which cuts travel time down to the few hours typically spent getting into and out of airports.
As such we can expect that anyone near to a place capable of teleportation like Sel would travel there and then be sent to their destination. 

For transporting vessels this processes would be fun, as the ship would have to get close enough to elantris. If the range in which aons function does not extend sufficiently far upwards then ships would have to descend into the atmosphere and go through reentry until they where in range. Ideally the aons would be in geostationary orbit, but if that's not possible floating aons in turn suspended by other aons would be second best. This is because being higher up would reduce the need for features enabling the spacecraft to survive reentry and a planetary environment.
For the aons to be sufficiently powerful they would have to be large and possibly complicated. Due to this the aons would probably take months to construct and launch making them expensive, but ultimately well worth the cost. 
it should be noted that due to the stars moving relative to each other you would be unable to be teleported directly to another planet but would instead have to make a short in-system flight to your destination.
To Clarify my proposal for the Elantris system would be one way

A similar thing may be accomplished using fabreils similar to the oathgates which would have the benefit of being able to move with your destination and being two way. However we don't know much about their construction, how the cost of transportation scales with range, and the access to significant amounts of storm-light away from Roshar seems unlikely. As such if this method is used it will probably be used infrequently and only with one end always being on Roshar.

Edited November 13, 2018 by Rossamund Rhapadocera
Original text was insufficiently clear

[Quantus]

I think it would take some serious gymnastics to make Selish magics work, they are fundamentally tied to Sel and their effects taper off with physical distance.  You might be able to work out some kind of Launcher style transport, but I think it would have to be one-way unless you could plug it into a Perpendicularity or some other energy-source .  Or maybe a bridge/gate system, if one side being anchored to Sel is enough.  

On the other hand, Roshar's Oathgates operate on a direct Spiritual Realm Teleportation via some Spren, which more or less the same thing as Spren. It would take the Moon Scepter Im sure but it might be possible to make a Dor-based Oathgate on Sel with a pair of giant Seons and connect that to the existing Rosharan Oathgate system. 

 

Then we could get a new story about a small team explorers on a team called OG-1 as they explore new worlds and pick fights with alien gods...Waaaaaaaiiiit.

(I kinda miss snarky Richard Dean Anderson, I wonder what he's up to these days)

[Nathrangking]

24 minutes ago, Quantus said:

I think it would take some serious gymnastics to make Selish magics work, they are fundamentally tied to Sel and their effects taper off with physical distance.  You might be able to work out some kind of Launcher style transport, but I think it would have to be one-way unless you could plug it into a Perpendicularity or some other energy-source .  Or maybe a bridge/gate system, if one side being anchored to Sel is enough.  

On the other hand, Roshar's Oathgates operate on a direct Spiritual Realm Teleportation via some Spren, which more or less the same thing as Spren. It would take the Moon Scepter Im sure but it might be possible to make a Dor-based Oathgate on Sel with a pair of giant Seons and connect that to the existing Rosharan Oathgate system. 

 

Then we could get a new story about a small team explorers on a team called OG-1 as they explore new worlds and pick fights with alien gods...Waaaaaaaiiiit.

(I kinda miss snarky Richard Dean Anderson, I wonder what he's up to these days)

That's not really how the Moon Scepter though it would be amusing if it did. @Rossamund Rhapadocera as @Quantus points out some serious hack would be needed to make aons viable in any way close to what you are suggesting. 

[Quantus]

27 minutes ago, Nathrangking said:

That's not really how the Moon Scepter though it would be amusing if it did. @Rossamund Rhapadocera as @Quantus points out some serious hack would be needed to make aons viable in any way close to what you are suggesting. 

To clarify: I think that Seons and Selish magics are entirely capable of creating their own equivalent of the Oathgate system, and that since they'd operate via instantaneous Spiritual Realm transport they should theoretically be capable of direct worldhopping.  But I also think that it would take a far deeper understanding to of the symbols involved to figure out the needed symbols (like the Name/address symbols for Roshar, as a start) to get the Selish copy to actually connect to and work with the Rosharan Spren.  Once the Rosharan Gate spren received the transport I think they'd be able to Learn & Copy enough to trace it back and complete the travel loop (since they supposedly hacked Radiants from watching Honorblades). 

 

But that's a series of Big If's, I would not want to be on that first expedition. 

[Ripheus23]

Don't worry, Sel itself will become self-aware and be a spaceship eventually anyway 

[Gasper]

4 hours ago, Quantus said:

To clarify: I think that Seons and Selish magics are entirely capable of creating their own equivalent of the Oathgate system, and that since they'd operate via instantaneous Spiritual Realm transport they should theoretically be capable of direct worldhopping.  But I also think that it would take a far deeper understanding to of the symbols involved to figure out the needed symbols (like the Name/address symbols for Roshar, as a start) to get the Selish copy to actually connect to and work with the Rosharan Spren.  Once the Rosharan Gate spren received the transport I think they'd be able to Learn & Copy enough to trace it back and complete the travel loop (since they supposedly hacked Radiants from watching Honorblades). 

I have been doing some research into the mechanics of how Selish magics work in the Cosmere. From what I have seen, Aon Dor's power slopes off at a linear rate as opposed to a exponential rate. A series of stabilized Aon Raos drawn on top of each other, stretching into the atmosphere, should allow for the power to be stretched in such a way that a station could act as a sort of Mass Relay* and move ships across the galaxy. What would need to be done is have a second relay at the other end and have a series of Aons drawn in space that stretch the power of the Dor to the other relay. Granted, this is a level of engineering that I do not think is possible without Scadrian FTL to build it, but it is an interesting thought. For those of you who have watched Stargate Atlantis, think of it as the cosmere version of the McKay Gate bridge between Pegasus and the Milky Way. Those of you who do not know what that is, please look it up. 

As far as none space based travel, I do not see a reason that the Oathgate network could not be extended to other worlds. All you would need is a way to keep the spren active off world or replace them with that worlds equivalent, and a tap into the planets investure to power the Oathgate. This would be easier on some worlds and harder on others.

[Weltall]

8 hours ago, Quantus said:

Then we could get a new story about a small team explorers on a team called OG-1 as they explore new worlds and pick fights with alien gods...Waaaaaaaiiiit.

Consisting of Kelsier O'Neill, Shallan Jackson, Khriss Carter and Roc'k, perhaps? Supported from Oathgate Command by General Dalinar? With gods like Ba'autonomy?

[Gasper]

31 minutes ago, Weltall said:

Consisting of Kelsier O'Neill, Shallan Jackson, Khriss Carter and Roc'k, perhaps? Supported from Oathgate Command by General Dalinar? With gods like Ba'autonomy?

Now that's a show I want to see.

[Weltall]

And after a couple of seasons we could get Oathgate Urithiru, where the team discovers how to activate another function of the gates that allows transport outside the Cosmere. This could be the perfect vehicle for examining the question of how Investiture functions outside the star cluster that is the Cosmere and whether Adonalsium was involved outside as well. And allow for a new cast of characters like Jasnah McCay and Vasher Dex to take the stage.

[Quantus]

2 hours ago, Gasper said:

I have been doing some research into the mechanics of how Selish magics work in the Cosmere. From what I have seen, Aon Dor's power slopes off at a linear rate as opposed to a exponential rate. A series of stabilized Aon Raos drawn on top of each other, stretching into the atmosphere, should allow for the power to be stretched in such a way that a station could act as a sort of Mass Relay* and move ships across the galaxy. What would need to be done is have a second relay at the other end and have a series of Aons drawn in space that stretch the power of the Dor to the other relay. Granted, this is a level of engineering that I do not think is possible without Scadrian FTL to build it, but it is an interesting thought. For those of you who have watched Stargate Atlantis, think of it as the cosmere version of the McKay Gate bridge between Pegasus and the Milky Way. Those of you who do not know what that is, please look it up. 

As far as none space based travel, I do not see a reason that the Oathgate network could not be extended to other worlds. All you would need is a way to keep the spren active off world or replace them with that worlds equivalent, and a tap into the planets investure to power the Oathgate. This would be easier on some worlds and harder on others.

I dont think that would work, the Aons themselves stop working as you get further away from Sel.  It's all that the Dor is fundamentally different from the other magics, in that it exists in Sel's Cognitive Realm rather than the Spiritual where you get to ignore space/time.  In fact, my understanding is that you have to take special steps just to get most of the different systems to work outside their homeland, and that none of them can reach offworld just because they only work in locations that Connect/overlap with Sel's Cognitive Realm.  

 

1 hour ago, Weltall said:

Consisting of Kelsier O'Neill, Shallan Jackson, Khriss Carter and Roc'k, perhaps? Supported from Oathgate Command by General Dalinar? With gods like Ba'autonomy?

We can all go home, you won the Internet for the day! 

 

EDIT:  Oh god, Roc'k even has a slave symbol carved into his forehead! Bwahaha!

Edited November 13, 2018 by Quantus

[Gasper]

1 hour ago, Quantus said:

the Aons themselves stop working as you get further away from Sel.  It's all that the Dor is fundamentally different from the other magics, in that it exists in Sel's Cognitive Realm rather than the Spiritual where you get to ignore space/time.  In fact, my understanding is that you have to take special steps just to get most of the different systems to work outside their homeland, and that none of them can reach offworld just because they only work in locations that Connect/overlap with Sel's Cognitive Realm.

In a sense you are right, but what my Aon bridge would do is extend the Dor through the cognitive realm, with each Aon acting as both a gate for the power and an anchor to extend the selish cognitive realm. Notice that the Aon Rao in Elantris is a power amplifier, that means that it increases the power of the city. Even if the power deceases like gravity or light due to an inverse squared function, each Aon would have its own Dor field so to speak. Keep stacking these things and it acts like a coiled wire generating a magnetic field. The field is strong inside the coil of wire or stack of Aons but weak outside of it. That would prevent the Dor from damaging other planets but still allow for it to be used as a method of transportation. If you used the right modifiers, it could be self repairing and self replicating. Just activate the first Aon and set its destination and watch as it spreads through the cognitive realm and creates a path in the physical. This side steps the issue of it being tied to the cognitive realm because the Aonic portion of the cognitive realm would just extend with the Aon bridge. 

[Quantus]

11 hours ago, Gasper said:

In a sense you are right, but what my Aon bridge would do is extend the Dor through the cognitive realm, with each Aon acting as both a gate for the power and an anchor to extend the selish cognitive realm. Notice that the Aon Rao in Elantris is a power amplifier, that means that it increases the power of the city. Even if the power deceases like gravity or light due to an inverse squared function, each Aon would have its own Dor field so to speak. Keep stacking these things and it acts like a coiled wire generating a magnetic field. The field is strong inside the coil of wire or stack of Aons but weak outside of it. That would prevent the Dor from damaging other planets but still allow for it to be used as a method of transportation. If you used the right modifiers, it could be self repairing and self replicating. Just activate the first Aon and set its destination and watch as it spreads through the cognitive realm and creates a path in the physical. This side steps the issue of it being tied to the cognitive realm because the Aonic portion of the cognitive realm would just extend with the Aon bridge. 

Oh, OK sorry, I see where you are going with it now.  It doesnt fit my current model for how the Cognitive Realm works and/or moves; The Dor doesnt create the Cognitive Realm around itself, it was simply crammed in Cognitive realm local to Sel.  I think to extend the Cognitive Realm into space would require an actual living population to expand outward, to see and think and perceive the bridge on the physical realm before it could be reflected in the Cognitive.  That would be the case from Sel or Scadrial.

But I could be wrong, and we havent seen any of how Aons interact with Shadesmar, so it's hard to say anything with conviction. 

[Scion of the Mists]

16 hours ago, Gasper said:

I have been doing some research into the mechanics of how Selish magics work in the Cosmere. From what I have seen, Aon Dor's power slopes off at a linear rate as opposed to a exponential rate. A series of stabilized Aon Raos drawn on top of each other, stretching into the atmosphere, should allow for the power to be stretched in such a way that a station could act as a sort of Mass Relay* and move ships across the galaxy. What would need to be done is have a second relay at the other end and have a series of Aons drawn in space that stretch the power of the Dor to the other relay. Granted, this is a level of engineering that I do not think is possible without Scadrian FTL to build it, but it is an interesting thought. For those of you who have watched Stargate Atlantis, think of it as the cosmere version of the McKay Gate bridge between Pegasus and the Milky Way. Those of you who do not know what that is, please look it up. 

As far as none space based travel, I do not see a reason that the Oathgate network could not be extended to other worlds. All you would need is a way to keep the spren active off world or replace them with that worlds equivalent, and a tap into the planets investure to power the Oathgate. This would be easier on some worlds and harder on others.

I don't think that a tower of Aon Raos would do anything more than amplify whatever power already existed at that location.  So you would still end up with the same decay as before, but it would have a larger constant (the same magnitude of Elantris).  

Even if it did work as you're proposing, there's no way to draw a bunch of Aons stretching across space to a different planet (as it's really, really far and everything is constantly moving).  

[Gasper]

4 hours ago, Quantus said:

The Dor doesnt create the Cognitive Realm around itself, it was simply crammed in Cognitive realm local to Sel.  I think to extend the Cognitive Realm into space would require an actual living population to expand outward, to see and think and perceive the bridge on the physical realm before it could be reflected in the Cognitive.  That would be the case from Sel or Scadrial.

Right, that is what I am saying. But the Dor is basically a storm in the cognitive realm made of the shards Devotion and Dominion. The Aon act like a gate that allow that storm to escape and do something. The Aon bridge would basically just be extending that storm into another region of the cognitive and physical realms. The population would eventually shape the cognitive realm so that the Aon bridge might not be necessary. The Aon bridge is basically a bigger version of what the Iri used to stay connected to Sel in Mistborn Secret History.

 

2 hours ago, Scion of the Mists said:

Even if it did work as you're proposing, there's no way to draw a bunch of Aons stretching across space to a different planet (as it's really, really far and everything is constantly moving).  

That is why you would have to program a modified Aon to replicate its self until it got to the destination. That or you walk the route in the cognitive realm and pop back into the physical in a space suit to draw an Aon then go back to the cognitive until you get to the next Aon drawing point.

[Quantus]

34 minutes ago, Gasper said:

That is why you would have to program a modified Aon to replicate its self until it got to the destination. That or you walk the route in the cognitive realm and pop back into the physical in a space suit to draw an Aon then go back to the cognitive until you get to the next Aon drawing point.

That's the catch I see, based on how it's described in Secret History I dont think the space between planets has anything like that kind of 1:1 relationship with the cognitive realm between those planets. 

[Feruchemist]

A simple solution: Turn a sentient chunk of Sel into a spaceship.

Utilize a propulsion system involving self-replicating Aons.

Done.

Edited November 14, 2018 by Feruchemist

[Quantus]

7 minutes ago, Feruchemist said:

A simple solution: Turn a sentient chunk of Sel into a spaceship.

Utilize a propulsion system involving self-replicating Aons.

Done.

 

Turn Sel into a WarWorld?  Nice!

 

[Scion of the Mists]

52 minutes ago, Gasper said:

Right, that is what I am saying. But the Dor is basically a storm in the cognitive realm made of the shards Devotion and Dominion. The Aon act like a gate that allow that storm to escape and do something. The Aon bridge would basically just be extending that storm into another region of the cognitive and physical realms. The population would eventually shape the cognitive realm so that the Aon bridge might not be necessary. The Aon bridge is basically a bigger version of what the Iri used to stay connected to Sel in Mistborn Secret History.

I'm really confused about what you're actually proposing.  Is it:

1. Creating a tower of Aons in the Physical Realm will "stretch" the Dor through the Cognitive Realm
2. Each Aon "chains" from the previous one, i.e. Aon 1 draws from the Dor on the surface, Aon 2 goes through Aon 1 to draw on the Dor at the surface instead of the Dor at its location
3. Some sort of "weaving" where the Investiture from the Dor flows back and forth between the Cognitive Realm and the Physical Realm
4. Somehow drawing Aons in the Cognitive Realm itself
5. Something else that I'm completely missing

 

58 minutes ago, Gasper said:

That is why you would have to program a modified Aon to replicate its self until it got to the destination. That or you walk the route in the cognitive realm and pop back into the physical in a space suit to draw an Aon then go back to the cognitive until you get to the next Aon drawing point.

I know that the various Selish magic systems are supposed to be able to do "virtually anything," but allowing self-replication across the entire galaxy seems like something that could destroy the Cosmere in like a thousand different ways.  

[Feruchemist]

14 minutes ago, Quantus said:

 

Turn Sel into a WarWorld?  Nice!

 

Yes.  Thus is Sel's fate.

To become a drifting world to rule all others. 

"DOWN WITH THE REST OF THE COSMERE, GLORY TO DOMI, GLORY TO SEL!"

[Gasper]

1 minute ago, Scion of the Mists said:

I'm really confused about what you're actually proposing.  Is it:

1. Creating a tower of Aons in the Physical Realm will "stretch" the Dor through the Cognitive Realm
2. Each Aon "chains" from the previous one, i.e. Aon 1 draws from the Dor on the surface, Aon 2 goes through Aon 1 to draw on the Dor at the surface instead of the Dor at its location
3. Some sort of "weaving" where the Investiture from the Dor flows back and forth between the Cognitive Realm and the Physical Realm
4. Somehow drawing Aons in the Cognitive Realm itself
5. Something else that I'm completely missing

You are on the right track. Here is how it works in my head.

1. starting over Elantris, an Aon is modified and drawn, most likely based around a modified Aon Rao and Aon Daa.

2. This continues until it reaches the upper atmosphere. Then the self replicating Aon takes effect and the Aon chain begins to move towards its destination.

Al of this hinges on the cognitive realm.

In the cognitive realm, the Aon starts pulling the Dor away from Elantris and extends the Identity interaction of the land and Investure, thus extending AonDor's usefulness. Once the Dor reaches a certain distance from the last Aon, that Aon activates the replication sequence and another AOn appears/is drawn/extended. That Aon also acts like a gate for the Dor and extends the investure-Identity matrix to allow the Dor to extend. The Aon that was already active powers the reaction until the Aon at the end of the chain can become fully established and activate. At that point, it powers the next Aon in the chain until that Aon can become active. 

it appears that the Aons act like a partial perpendicularly to draw power from the Cognitive to the Physical, that is what I am relying on for this to work. The Dor wants to escape and I would be giving it a massive hole in which to grow and extend into.

[Scion of the Mists]

1 hour ago, Gasper said:

In the cognitive realm, the Aon starts pulling the Dor away from Elantris and extends the Identity interaction of the land and Investure, thus extending AonDor's usefulness. Once the Dor reaches a certain distance from the last Aon, that Aon activates the replication sequence and another AOn appears/is drawn/extended. That Aon also acts like a gate for the Dor and extends the investure-Identity matrix to allow the Dor to extend. The Aon that was already active powers the reaction until the Aon at the end of the chain can become fully established and activate. At that point, it powers the next Aon in the chain until that Aon can become active. 

it appears that the Aons act like a partial perpendicularly to draw power from the Cognitive to the Physical, that is what I am relying on for this to work. The Dor wants to escape and I would be giving it a massive hole in which to grow and extend into.

Oh, I think I get it.  Selish magic is by far my weak point when it comes to Realmatics, but I don't think it's possible for the Aons to move the Dor in the Cognitive Realm, only draw it into the Physical Realm and shape it.  But I could be totally wrong about that - I'm sure someone more knowledgeable will chime in.  

I think that your self-replicating Aon idea is fascinating.  

[kenod]

Why would you actually need to extend the dor? Wouldn't it be easier to store the investure in the physical realm? I'm not sure how easy it would be to hack selish magic to use it, but I feel that it should be possible, and if you can do that, you could probably also use local manifestations of investure as fuel as well.

[Scion of the Mists]

2 hours ago, Ookla the Foxed said:

Why would you actually need to extend the dor? Wouldn't it be easier to store the investure in the physical realm? I'm not sure how easy it would be to hack selish magic to use it, but I feel that it should be possible, and if you can do that, you could probably also use local manifestations of investure as fuel as well.

Storing Investiture in the Physical Realm is definitely something you could do (e.g. Taldain's sand, Roshars gems).  You can even use aluminum to "steal" Investiture from a Shardpool.  

However:

• As you said, you'd have to hack the magic system to work with Investiture in the Physical Realm, rather than the Cognitive Realm.  
• You'd also have to get the physical container to each of the teleportation Aons that are spread across the Cosmere, which means you'd need to teleport them there...

[kenod]

1 minute ago, Scion of the Mists said:

You'd also have to get the physical container to each of the teleportation Aons that are spread across the Cosmere, which means you'd need to teleport them there...

This would actually be the easy part, at least if the Aons are at static locations. The containers themselves can be created on the planet's surface, so you would already have enough dor for the teleport, and you could also collect the investure from planets you're around (stormlight and ettmetal comes to mind).

[Scion of the Mists]

1 hour ago, Ookla the Foxed said:

This would actually be the easy part, at least if the Aons are at static locations. The containers themselves can be created on the planet's surface, so you would already have enough dor for the teleport, and you could also collect the investure from planets you're around (stormlight and ettmetal comes to mind).

I was misremembering since it's been a while since this topic was active.  The big issue is that Selish magic is "region-locked."  AonDor only works near Arelon, etc.