Royal Locks Dilution?

[Crucible of Shards]

Do we know if the Royal locks dilute at all? I can see several possibilities:

1. They do not dilute. I'm not sure how this would work, since breath is separate from sDNA, if I understand correctly.

2. They dilute continuously, and will eventually disappear due to the fragment of divine breath being split so many times.

3. They do not dilute, because Endowment maintains them directly.

4 They dilute in the fashion of Scadrian sDNA, as seen by the time of the Wax and Wayne books, reaching a minimum threshold. I don't understand how this would work since, once again, breath and sDNA are not equivalent, if I understand correctly.

5. They do not dilute because the non-heir/king/queen's fragment of a divine breath is somehow transferred upon death to the current king/queen/heirs.

6 Some other possibility.

[Weltall]

There's clearly some sort of mechanism in place and not just a straight transmission of 'Royal Locks sDNA' because the power somehow knows who's in the line of succession and who isn't.

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Brandon Sanderson

Only Potential Heirs of Idris Have Royal Locks

This is true. It's not a matter of genetics, but lineage. That's a subtle distinction. Only the children of the person who ends up inheriting will have the Royal Locks. (Though there are a couple of notable exceptions to this, they won't show up in this book, as it will take another novel to explain why and how the Royal Locks really work. If I ever write a sequel, that should be in it.)

This factoid about the Royal Locks should be one of several hints about the lineage of the Idrian crown. There is something odd about their heritage.

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[Quantus]

Definitely not #5, on the basis that we've seen two wildly different generations of the Royal locks both retain the ability.

 

I dont think they "dilute" the way normal DNA traits can and do, mostly because I dont think they have the complexity or the Dominant/Recessive trait dynamics it would take for that sort of fading.  It's not that the lineage has a finite chunk of Divine Breath that is getting literally passed down or divided up, so much as the fact that a Returned had a child which caused a permanent mutation in them more like Lerasium creating Mistborn/Misting bloodlines.  We've been told any Return could potentially learn what it takes to have children just like they can learn to control their physical form. 

[Crucible of Shards]

I don't find your answer satisfying, but I can't think of anything to say against it. A point in your favor is that Vivenna still has the Royal Locks when she was a drab. If it's an sDNA issue, it should be able to dilute like allomancers. You do point out that we have seen two specimens from different generations that looked identical in ability and function. However, one of them was also a full Returned, which negates that point.

Edited November 9, 2018 by Crucible of Shards

[Heir-of-Vax]

Divine Breath is a Splinter of Endowment. And while Slivers are people influenced by a Shard, which means it is not likely to be passed on to future generations, a Splinter is a non-living power source. Because of this I don’t think it is likely that it would fade over generations, it’s just kind of getting “passed around.”

Good question by the way.

[Crucible of Shards]

On ‎11‎/‎6‎/‎2018 at 11:49 AM, Heir-of-Vax said:

Divine Breath is a Splinter of Endowment. And while Slivers are people influenced by a Shard, which means it is not likely to be passed on to future generations, a Splinter is a non-living power source. Because of this I don’t think it is likely that it would fade over generations, it’s just kind of getting “passed around.”

Good question by the way.

I apprecfiate these responses, but I feel like they aren't getting to the heart of the question. The bearers of the royal locks do not have a divine breath. They inherited a "fragment" (according to the annotations). But when they have children, they do not lose that fragment. Instead, it appears to be duplicated, a la Calvin and Hobbes. Even though only the heir passes it down, there is still (if I understand it correctly) either a temporary net increase in investiture, since more people are gaining the royal locks through birth, or the fragment of divine breath is being diluted. (Or, it's being maintained somehow).

[+Invocation]

16 minutes ago, Crucible of Shards said:

I apprecfiate these responses, but I feel like they aren't getting to the heart of the question. The bearers of the royal locks do not have a divine breath. They inherited a "fragment" (according to the annotations). But when they have children, they do not lose that fragment. Instead, it appears to be duplicated, a la Calvin and Hobbes. Even though only the heir passes it down, there is still (if I understand it correctly) either a temporary net increase in investiture, since more people are gaining the royal locks through birth, or the fragment of divine breath is being diluted. (Or, it's being maintained somehow).

My money is on it being maintained by Endowment for one reason or another,

[Quantus]

On 11/5/2018 at 4:04 PM, Crucible of Shards said:

I don't find your answer satisfying, but I can't think of anything to say against it. A point in your favor is that Vivenna still has the Royal Locks when she was a drab. If it's an sDNA issue, it should be able to dilute like allomancers. You do point out that we have seen two specimens from different generations that looked identical in ability and function.

I cant find the WOB at the moment but as I understand it the Reason Allomancy has seen dilution over the generations is specifically that it has a competing alternative in Feruchemy that requires some of the same parts of the spiritweb to function (to the point where natural Fullborn are supposed to be all but impossible.

Also, for what it's worth even in Allomancy there is "a maxiumum level of dilution":

 

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Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

In Mistborn, as the Eras are going on, the powers get diluted because of people passing down the bloodlines. Once we reach the Third and Fourth Era, the powers are going to be--won't they be a lot weaker, and not very useful?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

They will become weaker, but there's a maximum level of dilution... There's a maximum level that you can reach pretty quickly, if you're only counting the northern continent. Because of the limited number of progenitors.

So, Era 3 we're not going to have a problem. And they're also trying to figure out ways around this.

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On 11/5/2018 at 4:04 PM, Crucible of Shards said:

 However, one of them was also a full Returned, which negates that point.

It certainly calls it into question, but I dont think it invalidates it entirely.  Denth's reflexive Royal Locks response there at the end was by all indications a distinct thing that other Returned would not do; they can Consciously manipulate themselves with training and practice and they all reflexively dictate their initial forms, but only a person (Returned or otherwise) born with the Locks seems to have it so deeply wired into their reflexive responses that their body has it on the list of possible reflexes to flail about during the last stages of of death.  Blushweavers form did no so much as flicker as she bled out. 

 

 

 

Edited November 9, 2018 by Quantus
grammar...

[Crucible of Shards]

47 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Also, for what it's worth even in Allomancy there is "a maxiumum level of dilution":

The problem I have with this, is that Breath (and Divine Breath) are separate from what is passed on through sDNA. Children of people with a large amount of breath are still born with only one. Obviously, the Royal locks are descended directly from a Returned, but the Breath is distinct from the person and their progeny. It does not alter a person's sDNA.  Rosharan lighteyes are lighteyed because the Investiture directly altered their sDNA. I don't see this as an equivalent circumstance because breath is distinct from sDNA.

 

47 minutes ago, Quantus said:

It certainly calls it into question, but I dont think it entirely invalidates it entirely.  Denth's reflexive Royal Locks response there at the end was by all indications a distinct thing that other Returned would not do; they can Consciously manipulate themselves with training and practice and they all reflexively dictate their initial forms, but only a person (Returned or otherwise) seems to have it so deeply wired into their reflexive responses that their body has it on the list of possible reflexes to flail about during the last stages of of death.  Blushweavers form did no so much as flicker as she bled out. 

I'll concede to you on this. You explained this very well, and it makes sense to me. Sorry if I came off harsh in my original response. I really do appreciate you helping me think about this.

Edited November 9, 2018 by Crucible of Shards

[Quantus]

18 hours ago, Crucible of Shards said:

The problem I have with this, is that Breath (and Divine Breath) are separate from what is passed on through sDNA. Children of people with a large amount of breath are still born with only one. Obviously, the Royal locks are descended directly from a Returned, but the Breath is distinct from the person and their progeny. It does not alter a person's sDNA.  Rosharan lighteyes are lighteyed because the Investiture directly altered their sDNA. I don't see this as an equivalent circumstance because breath is distinct from sDNA.

Two things:

First thing is that I also dont actually see any compelling connection between the Allomancy dilution and your proposed Royal Locks dilution, but you were mentioning it as part of your intial through process so I wanted to mention it as relevant that even /that/ instance of dilution will always still leave some base ability.  At most the analogy I see is that an eventual "dilution" effect might be that the heirs have less ability to control the Locks or perhaps loose the ability to learn other Manipulations like Vivenna has, but Id expect the base effect of the Locks to stick around.  @Weltall WOB kinda calls that into question (Id missed that post before) since there is apparently some mechanism for the Locks to only appear in a single Branch of the royal family tree. 

The main issue I have with that statement is that breath and Divine Breath are fundamentally different from each other in how they interact with the Spiritweb: unlike normal breaths the Divine Breath very much Does meld with and change your Spiritweb.  Similarly per WOB you cannot use Hemalurgy to steal Breathes but you CAN use it to steal the Returned Breath:

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Questioner

With spikes, would you be able to actually transfer Breaths, when they get to the other planets?

Brandon Sanderson

So spikes rip off pieces of the soul and so Breaths are not going to be part of the soul. You could maybe get a divine Breath but I haven't really decided on regular Breaths, they're kind of stuck there in the Physical Realm which is not a thing that spikes are dealing with. Divine Breath, potentially, because that's something that's actually melding onto your soul. But, you know, when you're using the Breaths they reach through to the Spiritual Realm so, maybe if you got it while the Breaths were kinetic, right, while you're using them, then you might be able to rip them off. I'm not a hundred percent certain on that one.

Bystander

There's still things to decide upon.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah there's still things, like I have to kind of see. My instinct says no right now. But, you know, how they interact is not something that I have-- Yeah.

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That bolded part is the big difference, and is why Heighenings alone dont grant all the same variable form abilities that the Returned get. (Note that this was from 2015 and since he has more definitively stated that you can indeed steal Divine Breaths with Spikes.

 

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I'll concede to you on this. You explained this very well, and it makes sense to me. Sorry if I came off harsh in my original response. I really do appreciate you helping me think about this.

Not at all, we're just kicking around theories here, and this is a rabbit hole I havent chased before. 

Edited November 10, 2018 by Quantus
grammar...

[Crucible of Shards]

@Quantus I just know there's something we're missing about this, and I just can't piece it together. Hopefully Brandon will actually write Nightblood, because I can't wait.