Odium and his puppets

[FirstSelector]

The Recreance - why, how, and when it happened - is obviously going to play a central role in the upcoming books.  We know precious little, but I would like to propose a simple (if outlandish) theory as to why it happened.

 

The Knights Radiant could be mind-controlled by Odium.

 

Yes, you read that correctly.  I would like to propose that the Knights gave up their power to prevent Odium from taking them over en masse following the most recent Desolation.

 

To properly motivate this idea, I need to lay out some facts:

 

* The cause of the Recreance can be communicated simply

* The cause must be sufficiently dangerous that almost all of the Knights gave up simultaneously

* The spren would interpret these actions as a betrayal

 

The first fact follows from the Diagram, and the fact that Taravangian could somehow use the secret to break up the new Knights.  I take this to mean that he would announce whatever the secret is, and the Knights would be compelled in some way to give up their power.  In particular, I think the Knights themselves have to decide to give up their own power.

 

The second fact follows from the Feverstone Keep vision and the in-world Words of Radiance.  This isn't a gradual event - suddenly, within a fairly short time window, all of the Knights give up their power.    I take this to be an indication of the magnitude of the damage caused by the secret.

 

The third fact follows directly from Jasnah, the Stormfather, and Pattern.

 

How does this mind control work?  We have seen on other worlds how a Shard can interact with damaged souls, and it isn't much of a leap to assume a similar thing can happen here.  Knights are, by construction, damaged souls.  Odium simply reaches in, granting him anything from direct control to simply changing viewpoints.

 

There may be some restriction on this ability, some requisite hatred or similar that allows Odium to take hold.  Thus, a particularly emotionless Knight might be able to resist Odium if she could properly banish emotion.  The Skybreakers fit this well, but the other Orders don't generically have their control.

 

Note Szeth's unnatural hatred towards the people he has killed and Kaladin's unhealthy hatred of lighteyes.

 

Why at the particular time?  I assume that the Heralds provide some sort of "prison" for Odium during their time in Damnation.  When all ten Heralds are present, Odium has very little touch on Roshar.  But with only one Herald present, his touch may be more drastic.  With no other Voidbringers to control and only Talenel, sometime after the most recent Desolation would be a good opportunity for him.

 

In this scenario, I imagine that the Heralds/Knights realize that this possible and move to destroy the Orders before Odium can act.  Depending on Odium's speed, the execution referenced in Words of Radiance may in fact be one of the first of these case.

 

Finally, the spren consider this a betrayal because Odium can only take over when the Knight fails to keep hatred away.  Thus, the preemptive abandonment rather than fighting his influence goes against the First Ideal and everything the Knights stood for.

 

In conclusion, without the other Heralds to guard him (or Voidbringers to distract him), Odium can take advantage of a emotionally susceptible Knight's broken soul to mind control her.  When the Knights realized this, they abandoned their Oaths instead of fighting Odium's influence which to the spren was a betrayal.

 

Closing thoughts - any theory for the Recreance has to account for the fact that all of the Knights gave up at once.  Given what else we have seen, this seems like a sufficiently drastic scenario.

 

[Shardmancer]

This is a very plausible theory.. I do believe I have seen others theories regarding the End of the KR because of some sort of betrayal.. they obivously did something out of character- which is why it hurt so much... And for something so drasrtic and out of character. I dont know if it was actual mind control- seems bit out of character for Sanderson- more as strong influence. perhaps they went overboard with helping the world- (death note style) Decding peoples fates and Skybreakers taking the law to literally into thier own hands.. But i do like theory ++

[Moogle]

Mistborn spoilers:

This is a very interesting theory, but it doesn't feel right. Allomancers who Snapped (which also required a 'broken' soul) were quite safe in general from mind control. It was a select few who were particularly susceptible, and I don't feel the Radiants qualify.

 

Only those who used Hemalurgy ended up being vulnerable, like Vin. Vin feeling the effect of TLR's Soothing more than others is a good sign that she had the Flaw, and that it applied to more than just having Ruin able to influence you. Any Hemalurgy at all means weakened defenses

 

So I would suggest that, due to the huge similarities between Hemalurgy and the way people forcibly bond Shardblades (to the point where I think there's a decent chance that it is Hemalurgy to bond a Shardblade with a gemstone), that people like Amaram and Adolin are vulnerable to Odium, but not those like Kaladin. Kaladin probably just became hate-filled on his own for reasonable reasons.

Edited May 12, 2014 by Moogle

[king of nowhere]

he theory has merits, but I doon't like how drastic it is. I just don't like the idea of odium being able to mind control all the kr. Also, wouldn't they leave some information about that? IIf nothing else, just as warning for those who would try to bind a spren after them?

I suggest however an alternative interpretation: odium was able to subtly influence the kr, and used that influence to persuade them to quit. As for why so many of them left together, maybe they hadd some heated discussion about it and afterwards several left.

[FirstSelector]

You all raise good points.  I am the first to admit this is somewhat over-dramatic, and that the similarities to Mistborn are somewhat stretched.  However, I think the idea that Odium might have some measure of influence over the Radiants simply due to the nature of Surgebinding is reasonable.  Perhaps not full-blown mind control, but even subtle nudges over long times can be just as dangerous.

[TheBlackReaper]

Mistborn spoilers:

This is a very interesting theory, but it doesn't feel right. Allomancers who Snapped (which also required a 'broken' soul) were quite safe in general from mind control. It was a select few who were particularly susceptible, and I don't feel the Radiants qualify.

 

Only those who used Hemalurgy ended up being vulnerable, like Vin. Vin feeling the effect of TLR's Soothing more than others is a good sign that she had the Flaw, and that it applied to more than just having Ruin able to influence you. Any Hemalurgy at all means weakened defenses

 

So I would suggest that, due to the huge similarities between Hemalurgy and the way people forcibly bond Shardblades (to the point where I think there's a decent chance that it is Hemalurgy to bond a Shardblade with a gemstone), that people like Amaram and Adolin are vulnerable to Odium, but not those like Kaladin. Kaladin probably just became hate-filled on his own for reasonable reasons.

 

 

 

I think this is an interesting theory, except for the fact that we cannnot compare the bonding of the shardblades to hemalurgy. I remember that at the end of one of the mistborn book, in the ars arcanum (most probably by hoid), was a passage on hemalurgy, that specifically stated that the point of insertion of the rods were very important 'spiritually'.

 

I think, keeping up with the whole 'spren' concept-people who are in close contact to sprens, or their bodies(dead) are more susceptible to odium's influence (remember thrill that the shardbearers feel in battle). this also gives credence to the theory that has been stated on this thread.

[hoser]

I really like the theory.  I want to understand the Recreance and all ideas may contribute to a solution.  That said, it seems problematic for one reason I didn't see above.  There are references to possession and mind control as tools of Odium in tWoK.  It seems to be common knowledge in the mythology.  It could be part of the reason, but I think there must be more, as it is not even a secret in modern Roshar.  I think the Knights would have had a better understanding of what Odium was about than the modern mythology.

In addition, the Knights, being invested, would seem to be least susceptible to that sort of influence.  As we saw w/Syl, the spren can tell when the Knights start to go off and communicate w/them.

[Ren]

I like your theory, because you doubt in things that some people don't.

What I've found out in Sanderson's books is that you should doubt even the things that seem Divine. (especially them)

I don't trust the spren, I don't trust the Heralds, I don't even trust that Surgebinding is as helpful as it seems. Odium can have his influence spread anywhere.

[digitalbusker]

(remember thrill that the shardbearers feel in battle)

The Thrill is not unique to Shardbearers.