Why?

[Aleksiel]

Thank you both! But we see a lot of Adolin's PoV, he doesn't give any particular reason for his distrust, nor is there any indication he's in denial like Shallan. He's very straight forward and hot-headed. I'm not convinced there's more to it.

[maxal she/her]

Thank you both! But we see a lot of Adolin's PoV, he doesn't give any particular reason for his distrust, nor is there any indication he's in denial like Shallan. He's very straight forward and hot-headed. I'm not convinced there's more to it.

 

He is not in denial that's for sure, that would be completely out of character, but his hate may have been triggered by some events we haven't seen yet. Anyway, this all sprouted with my idea of "Sadeas raped Jasnah", but it is unlikely as someone pointed out she doesn't seem to hate him all that much.

 

I chose Sadeas as the culprit because 1) he is a bad person and I would totally see him doing such a thing 2) he was close to the royal family. Now who else could have have access to the Kohlin's children as they grew up? How about some dirty Ardent liking touching little kids.... Now I know this is immensely creepy, but where I live there are many stories of priests doing things to little innocent kids back in the day...... Such an event could have fueled Jasnah huge dislike of Vorinist in general and Ardents in particular.

[Aleksiel]

He is not in denial that's for sure, that would be completely out of character, but his hate may have been triggered by some events we haven't seen yet. Anyway, this all sprouted with my idea of "Sadeas raped Jasnah", but it is unlikely as someone pointed out she doesn't seem to hate him all that much.

 

I chose Sadeas as the culprit because 1) he is a bad person and I would totally see him doing such a thing 2) he was close to the royal family. Now who else could have have access to the Kohlin's children as they grew up? How about some dirty Ardent liking touching little kids.... Now I know this is immensely creepy, but where I live there are many stories of priests doing things to little innocent kids back in the day...... Such an event could have fueled Jasnah huge dislike of Vorinist in general and Ardents in particular.

 

Yeah, it's one possibility, but that would undermine her heresy and her whole character for me. It's kind of a cliche to make her a heretic because of a ardent. Jasnah didn't seem hateful towards them as a whole, though certainly not on the best terms either... Plus she has been fond of an ardent once, he gave her The book of endless pages.

[maxal she/her]

Yeah, it's one possibility, but that would undermine her heresy and her whole character for me. It's kind of a cliche to make her a heretic because of a ardent. Jasnah didn't seem hateful towards them as a whole, though certainly not on the best terms either... Plus she has been fond of an ardent once, he gave her The book of endless pages.

 

Alright.

 

Forbidden love story then? How about falling in love with an ardent? Sharing books and eventually getting intimate? How about juvenile pregnancy from an ardent? Highly inappropriate in the Alethki society. If such things ever happen, there are kept in the shadows... So what if she did get pregnant from some ardent and then found a way to miscarry? She certainly wouldn't have tell anyone as it would have shame her beyond measure.... The Alethki society is prude to the extreme... Adolin is 22 and he is blushing when Shallan kisses him on the cheek.......... Geez. Talk about being prude.

 

Could be she blames Vorinis for the event and has thus move toward heresy?

[Aleksiel]

Alright.

 

Forbidden love story then? How about falling in love with an ardent? Sharing books and eventually getting intimate? How about juvenile pregnancy from an ardent? Highly inappropriate in the Alethki society. If such things ever happen, there are kept in the shadows... So what if she did get pregnant from some ardent and then found a way to miscarry? She certainly wouldn't have tell anyone as it would have shame her beyond measure.... The Alethki society is prude to the extreme... Adolin is 22 and he is blushing when Shallan kisses him on the cheek.......... Geez. Talk about being prude.

 

Could be she blames Vorinis for the event and has thus move toward heresy?

 

Well, now that's something I haven't seen before... I don't know. I also think there might have been something between her and an ardent, but I lean towards him being killed by some thugs like those she soulcasted with Shallan. 

[maxal she/her]

Well, now that's something I haven't seen before... I don't know. I also think there might have been something between her and an ardent, but I lean towards him being killed by some thugs like those she soulcasted with Shallan. 

 

Could be. I tend to be a little dramatic with my imagination.m I agree there was something about those thugs and the casualty with which Jasnah killed them.

[Griff he/him]

if that was the case wouldnt she try stop shallan spending so much time with kabsal(spelling wrong I think) in the way of kings? because what ye are is suggesting is a mirror of that really? even tho he wasnt really an ardent.

think what broke her has something to do with why she was organising assassins to protect her family, supposedly everyone loved/ got on with her father so strange was going to those lengths to protect her family dont ye think?

Edited May 10, 2014 by Griff

[maxal she/her]

if that was the case wouldnt she try stop shallan spending so much time with kabsal(spelling wrong I think) in the way of kings? because what ye are is suggesting is a mirror of that really? even tho he wasnt really an ardent.

think wot broke her has something to do with why she was organising assassins to protect her family, supposedly everyone was on loved/ got on with her father so strange was going to those lengths to protect her family dont ye think?

 

Well she did disapproved of Shallan friendship with Kasbal.... Albeit, the relationship did not go very far. We don't know what Jasnah would have done if Shallan had kissed him or something of the sort.

 

Not everyone agreed with Galivar: the kingdom has always been a fragile one. The Kohlins were respected, feared, but envied. They managed to keep the kingdom whole, but it was not easy. Dalinar reflects on that at some point.

[Griff he/him]

if what ye are suggesting was true would it not be alot stronger than disapproval tho? and was that not because she thought he was using shallan more than anythin else?

I thought dalinar made it seen that gavilar was loved and that he felt inadequete in comparison? must look for that section in the book

[SmurfAquamarineBodies he/him]

i have always thought that Jasnah was raped because her coping mechanism is the same as mine. Or she could have been molested as a little girl by Amaram but when she tried ti tell her father he disregarded what she said because Jasnah was a little girl and 'Amaram wouldn't do that' because he is honorable. then because her father didn't believe her, she turned off her emotions ( it's what i did ) and distanced herself from Amaram in as many ways she could e.g. she became a Heretic. ( pretty sure Amaram is religious? ) and travelled.

[potato]

What's the timeline on Dalinar going to the Nightwatcher?

I only ask because some part of me thinks Dalinar killed his wife (possibly after she and Sadeas tried to convince him to dispose of Elhokar and become the king himself). That would explain Adolin's dislike of Sadeas and how Dalinar became broken enough to bond a spren. The guilt of failing his brother, coupled with a hot-blooded killing of his wife would surely drive a man to the brink.

[maxal she/her]

i have always thought that Jasnah was raped because her coping mechanism is the same as mine. Or she could have been molested as a little girl by Amaram but when she tried ti tell her father he disregarded what she said because Jasnah was a little girl and 'Amaram wouldn't do that' because he is honorable. then because her father didn't believe her, she turned off her emotions ( it's what i did ) and distanced herself from Amaram in as many ways she could e.g. she became a Heretic. ( pretty sure Amaram is religious? ) and travelled.

 

It is a good theory. However I am not sure about Amaram being the culprit. Would he have been close enough to the royal family to be able to molest Jasnah? How old is he anyway? This is why I initially thought of Sadeas and then turned my focus on some random Ardent...

 

What's the timeline on Dalinar going to the Nightwatcher?

I only ask because some part of me thinks Dalinar killed his wife (possibly after she and Sadeas tried to convince him to dispose of Elhokar and become the king himself). That would explain Adolin's dislike of Sadeas and how Dalinar became broken enough to bond a spren. The guilt of failing his brother, coupled with a hot-blooded killing of his wife would surely drive a man to the brink.

 

Except Adolin does not know why his father went to the Nightwatcher. He was just a child when it happened. If Dalinar did killed his wife, surely he would have managed to not have his sons witness it? And if Adolin did know, wouldn't he resent his father? All we get from the Kohlin boys is that they love their mother and their father, especially Adolin who worships Dalinar.

Edited May 11, 2014 by maxal

[SmurfAquamarineBodies he/him]

It is a good theory. However I am not sure about Amaram being the culprit. Would he have been close enough to the royal family to be able to molest Jasnah? How old is he anyway? This is why I initially thought of Sadeas and then turned my focus on some random Ardent...

 

 

 

It would be remarkably easy for him to get close enough to Jasnah, royal gardens are big secluded places. I really only accused him because it seemed as though through WoR he was being set up as a man who pretends to be honorable but is really quite disgusting, not helping Adolin in his duel is dispicable considering he is trying to be a Knight. It just seemed like that would be the icing on the cake and if the champion thing is correct he could be headed towards being Odiums champion,  

[maxal she/her]

It would be remarkably easy for him to get close enough to Jasnah, royal gardens are big secluded places. I really only accused him because it seemed as though through WoR he was being set up as a man who pretends to be honorable but is really quite disgusting, not helping Adolin in his duel is dispicable considering he is trying to be a Knight. It just seemed like that would be the icing on the cake and if the champion thing is correct he could be headed towards being Odiums champion,  

 

I agree with all this, but Amaram was one of Sadeas brightlord. I do not think he spent much time in Kohlinar and and the Kohlin's kids probably were raised there, up until the Parshendi war at least. I would be a nice plot twist, but I wonder if Amaram would have really been available for this. Also, do we know how old he is? Is he even old enough for this?

[Aleksiel]

What's the timeline on Dalinar going to the Nightwatcher?

I only ask because some part of me thinks Dalinar killed his wife (possibly after she and Sadeas tried to convince him to dispose of Elhokar and become the king himself). That would explain Adolin's dislike of Sadeas and how Dalinar became broken enough to bond a spren. The guilt of failing his brother, coupled with a hot-blooded killing of his wife would surely drive a man to the brink.

 

Ten years ago; Gavilar's assassination was 6 years ago. 

 

About the popular theory of Jasnah being raped: what's foreshadowed so far is an ardent who was 'very dear' to her and unexplained hatred for thugs robbing people in dark alleys. Losing a loved one that way (being robbed and killed) is another explanation of Jasnah's emotional detachment and it's understandable she haven't told anyone about a secret forbidden love affair/interest. One other significant thing is Jasnah was apparently obsessed with keeping her family save by hiring assassins to watch over them secretly, which I think also ties up with the idea I just mentioned. 

 

She met both Amaram and Sadeas in her PoV and the worst she thought was how 'it would never happen' between Amaram and her. I am no expert, but I can imagine that'd be all she thought of if he had really molested her.

[signspace13 he/him]

I agree with all this, but Amaram was one of Sadeas brightlord. I do not think he spent much time in Kohlinar and and the Kohlin's kids probably were raised there, up until the Parshendi war at least. I would be a nice plot twist, but I wonder if Amaram would have really been available for this. Also, do we know how old he is? Is he even old enough for this?

 

Gavilar seemed to think he was a good match for Jasnah, and her reaction to him in that scene definitely isn't that of seeing one who molested her, she would have been something like 29 at that point because i think shallan said she was 35 in WoK

.

edit:

Edited May 11, 2014 by signspace13

[Gabriele she/her]

Perhaps, but the age difference makes it hard...

 

Maybe Adolin found out later. We won't know what's going on without a flashback book by some member of the Kholin family who strikes me as more dysfunctional than it seems, at least when it comes to the past. I won't be surprised to find a few bodies in their cellars.

 

Edited to add: Amaram would be a possibility, too, imho. Blackthorn Dalinar would not have gone the length to investigate that Way of the Kings Dalinar does.

 

And we have no idea what role his wife played in the whole mess that likely happened, or what Renarin knows.

Edited May 11, 2014 by Gabriele

[maxal she/her]

Maybe Adolin found out later. We won't know what's going on without a flashback book by some member of the Kholin family who strikes me as more dysfunctional than it seems, at least when it comes to the past. I won't be surprised to find a few bodies in their cellars.

 

Edited to add: Amaram would be a possibility, too, imho. Blackthorn Dalinar would not have gone the length to investigate that Way of the Kings Dalinar does.

 

And we have no idea what role his wife played in the whole mess that likely happened, or what Renarin knows.

 

It could be, it would be a nice plot twist, except that Adolin sounds so normal. He does not strike me like the kind of person growing up with skeletons in the cupboard. Renarin however is another story. I could see Renarin knowing something and not talking, keeping it to himself, being slightly traumatized by some events, but Adolin? I think that whatever happened 10 years ago, he probably does not know about it. He was probably told his mother died of some sickness and as far as we know she very well may have been. The only slightly abnormal thing we have seen about Adolin is his hatred of Sadeas pre-betrayal, but it could be explained by so many factors it is hard to draw a clear picture.

 

Based on more recent posts, I am thinking Amaram was not a molester, but a "prospect" for Jasnah..... I mean, look at how scandalous people think of Adolin not being married yet at 22 and how much pressure he has to just find someone, it is very easy to imagine the sort of pressure young Jasnah may have had.... At the time, Sadeas, Dalinar and Galivar were all friends. Amaram is a lighteye of the third dahn who is very well thought of. It is not hard to imagine Galivar trying to make a match between him and his daughter. I do not know how old Amaram is, but I have always pictured him as younger than Sadeas, so he could be about Jasnah's age or slightly older, which would make him 35-45 years old.

 

Or I could be completely wrong.

 

 

Gavilar seemed to think he was a good match for Jasnah, and her reaction to him in that scene definitely isn't that of seeing one who molested her, she would have been something like 29 at that point because i think shallan said she was 35 in WoK

.

edit:

 

Do you have the quote? It would fit my latest theory that Amaram was a husband prospect for Jasnah, but not a molester. I am really inkling towards some Ardent... maybe as Aleksiel says, someone who was close to her, but ended up abusing her.

Edited May 11, 2014 by maxal

[signspace13 he/him]

It could be, it would be a nice plot twist, except that Adolin sounds so normal. He does not strike me like the kind of person growing up with skeletons in the cupboard. Renarin however is another story. I could see Renarin knowing something and not talking, keeping it to himself, being slightly traumatized by some events, but Adolin? I think that whatever happened 10 years ago, he probably does not know about it. He was probably told his mother died of some sickness and as far as we know she very well may have been. The only slightly abnormal thing we have seen about Adolin is his hatred of Sadeas pre-betrayal, but it could be explained by so many factors it is hard to draw a clear picture.

 

Based on more recent posts, I am thinking Amaram was not a molester, but a "prospect" for Jasnah..... I mean, look at how scandalous people think of Adolin not being married yet at 22 and how much pressure he has to just find someone, it is very easy to imagine the sort of pressure young Jasnah may have had.... At the time, Sadeas, Dalinar and Galivar were all friends. Amaram is a lighteye of the third dahn who is very well thought of. It is not hard to imagine Galivar trying to make a match between him and his daughter. I do not know how old Amaram is, but I have always pictured him as younger than Sadeas, so he could be about Jasnah's age or slightly older, which would make him 35-45 years old.

 

Or I could be completely wrong.

 

Do you have the quote? It would fit my latest theory that Amaram was a husband prospect for Jasnah, but not a molester. I am really inkling towards some Ardent... maybe as Aleksiel says, someone who was close to her, but ended up abusing her.

 

“Perhaps if you found pleasant associations,” Gavilar said, “you would enjoy the feasts.” His eyes swung toward Amaram, whom he’d long fancied as a potential match for her. It would never happen. Amaram met her eyes, then murmured words of parting to her father and hastened away down the corridor.

-the words of radiance.epub pg. 16

emphasis mine

 

this shows that Gavilar did Fancy Amaram as a potential match for Jasnah meaning there age difference can't be too severe, and I don't think it would be wide enough to get his 'creepy uncle' on.

[Swimmingly he/him]

On the psychologically normal bit: He may seem like it, but he's given up his wife's memory in exchange for...something. Or vice versa. That's hardly something you'd do unless a traumatizing event happened in the past.

[maxal she/her]

emphasis mine

 

this shows that Gavilar did Fancy Amaram as a potential match for Jasnah meaning there age difference can't be too severe, and I don't think it would be wide enough to get his 'creepy uncle' on.

 

Well that settles it then. Amaram was indeed a prospect for Jasnah. I always pictured him around Jasnah's age or older given the way he interacts with Dalinar and Adolin.

 

 

On the psychologically normal bit: He may seem like it, but he's given up his wife's memory in exchange for...something. Or vice versa. That's hardly something you'd do unless a traumatizing event happened in the past.

I may be wrong, but I always thought one did not decide what the curse is to bee when one sees the Nightwatcher.... If I am right, than Dalinar did not purposely give up his wife's memory.

[signspace13 he/him]

 

I may be wrong, but I always thought one did not decide what the curse is to bee when one sees the Nightwatcher.... If I am right, than Dalinar did not purposely give up his wife's memory.

 

I don't know if we know what his boon was, maybe he asked for all memories of his wife erased and Renarin's blood sickness/epilepsy was the curse, i mean that seem just as likely as any other theory we have.

 

[A Joe in the Bush]

Oops. Posted accidentally and can't figure out how to delete it.

 

If you look between the Multiquote Button and the Edit Button, there should be a Hide button.(Only on your posts) Click it, type a reason for hiding the post, and it will be gone.

Edited May 12, 2014 by The Only Joe

[maxal she/her]

I don't know if we know what his boon was, maybe he asked for all memories of his wife erased and Renarin's blood sickness/epilepsy was the curse, i mean that seem just as likely as any other theory we have.

 

Renarin's sickness prevented him from learning how to fight. I understood he did try, but he couldn't keep up because of it. Now, from Zahel, we know most lighteyes kids start their training between 10 and 12. We know Adolin strangely started at 6. The mother died when Renarin was about 9. Considering how young Adolin started his training, we can assume Renarin tried starting at about the same age. If I am right, then the curse could not have been the sickness as Renarin would have need to have it before.

[Vanavel she/her]

On the psychologically normal bit: He may seem like it, but he's given up his wife's memory in exchange for...something. Or vice versa. That's hardly something you'd do unless a traumatizing event happened in the past.

 

 

Well that settles it then. Amaram was indeed a prospect for Jasnah. I always pictured him around Jasnah's age or older given the way he interacts with Dalinar and Adolin.

 

 

I may be wrong, but I always thought one did not decide what the curse is to bee when one sees the Nightwatcher.... If I am right, than Dalinar did not purposely give up his wife's memory.

 

I'm more with Maxal. I've always thought that he went to the Nightwatcher out of the depth of his grief over his wife's death. If that was the case, he probably asked for some sort of relief from the pain, and the Nightwatcher responded by entirely removing Dalinar's memories of his wife, etc. His blessing was his curse.