Why?

[maxal]

We've seen her use her studies, as has Shallan, as a coping mechanism, so that's definitely possible, but I think it must have been pretty central to her life to begin with. Doesn't Navani describe her as being a naturally curious child?

 

Naturally curious child do not become cold and distant out of nowhere..... Something happened and I suspect Jasnah never told anyone. If she was indeed raped, than it could be she never told her mother. Maybe she was ashamed as many raped victims are. Especially if the culprit was well known to the family. She would have thus withdraw from her mother to avoid having to give it out. I could see that happening.

 

Now who would have close enough to the Kohlin family to do such a thing? Ooooooooooooooooh wild guess here, what if it were Sadeas? What if that slimy eel raped her? Does someone have the quote were Shallan reads Jasnah notes about the other highprinces, what did she say about Sadeas?

[Aleksiel]

Nice possibility. Jasnah being homosexual is indeed quite possible. I like your idea, it would definitely harm a young teenager girl. Afterwards, her coping mechanism would have been trusting herself into her studies and turning down every man.

 

Before you posted, I was about to write "What if Galivar raped her"....... I didn't recall Jasnah speaking fondly of her father, but I recalled Navani not being sorry he was dead, so.....

 

Navani could have many other reasons for not missing Gavilar and if she knew he did something to Jasnah, she certainly wouldn't have wondered what changed her. Jasnah spoke fond of him when discussing his interest in the Parshendi and how that was one of the few occasions she felt connected to him, but I can't find the exact quote.

 

I'm certainly supporter of the idea that a girl Jasnah loved (regardless if as a friend or a lover) was the one who suffered and was likely killed by some men, which broke Jasnah and made her withdraw from future relationships. It's pure speculations of course and many other things can explain the little info we have. It's just what I find most likely for now.

 

 

@ aleksiel fair point with shallan but I kinda inferred that the scene with her mother was the end of a much longer series of events we didnt see, and not just a sudden once off reaction, seemed premeditated by her mother, so I inferred her brokeness was because of her mother, I might be wrong.

I dont agree with what u said bout dalinar, dont think that is enough to break him,

Same with renarin

As for adolin I think you are taking snap to mean more than it does, to me it implied enough is enough have to end this type thing not snap as in broken.

 

 I said that snap is speculation, I ddn't claim he broke at that point. About Dalinar we'll have to agree to disagree. Losing a loved one is very traumatic and when you add guilt to that I can see it as more than enough to break anyone, but you are entitled to have your own opinion. Regarding Renarin I strongly reccomend you read the threads I linked for you, because it has been discussed in great details 

Edited May 10, 2014 by Aleksiel

[Gabriele]

Now who would have close enough to the Kohlin family to do such a thing? Ooooooooooooooooh wild guess here, what if it were Sadeas? What if that slimy eel raped her? Does someone have the quote were Shallan reads Jasnah notes about the other highprinces, what did she say about Sadeas?

And what if Adolin found out and she asked him to keep silent about it? That would explain his snapping.

[Delightful]

I dont agree with what u said bout dalinar, dont think that is enough to break him,

 

Dalinar was horrified enough about his brother's death that he changed his entire lifestyle and way of thinking. To me that's more than enough cause for Snapping, but feel free to disagree!

 

 

As for adolin I think you are taking snap to mean more than it does, to me it implied enough is enough have to end this type thing not snap as in broken.

Unless I'm misunderstanding you, that's exactly what happened to Adolin. He's had Sadeas hanging around aggravating him (can't think of the correct word here :/) for months, when everyone knows that Sadeas betrayed them, but he's had his hands tied by Alethi propriety and hasn't been able to do anything. So he got fed up, Snapped and killed the guy,

 

 

 

Maxal you summed up my feelings on renarin better than I did myself bar I dont think he should of been a radiant full stop, it just makes no sense to me, and if hes bein a truth watcher means he just screams we are all going to die or some such nonsence during every fight I could do without it, just seems totally inept, unless we see massive growth from him, and he becomes a more central character I dont see my feelings changing.

I'm going to bet we'll see a far more competent Renarin when he's finally in a situation where he can 'do his own thing' rather than constantly pressuring himself and being pressured by societal expectation to be a warrior, which is clearly not his strength. I hope that happens, anyway,

 

[Aleksiel]

Now who would have close enough to the Kohlin family to do such a thing? Ooooooooooooooooh wild guess here, what if it were Sadeas? What if that slimy eel raped her? Does someone have the quote were Shallan reads Jasnah notes about the other highprinces, what did she say about Sadeas?

 

 

Jasnah's notes on Sadeas describe him as an intelligent man, nothing to point in direction of him hurting her. She also thought nothing bad of him in the prologue when she met Ivory (therefor had already been broken).

 

 

And what if Adolin found out and she asked him to keep silent about it? That would explain his snapping.

 

Unlikely. Nothing indicates them being close enough for Jasnah to share such a thing and Adolin never had more than a hunch to distrust Sadeas. He isn't like Shallan to keep things from himself, so it would have been mention in his PoV if he knew of such a thing. And he could have used it as a reason to duel Sadeas.

Edited May 10, 2014 by Aleksiel

[maxal]

I dont agree with what u said bout dalinar, dont think that is enough to break him,

 

 

I disagree about this. Dalinar was a warlord tyran famous for his kills. After years and years of bloody campaign he started to realize what he was really doing. He started seeing the wrongness in his actions and he try to correct himself by becoming pious and by trying to raise his sons differently. Besides, sometime else horrible must have happen for him to seek the Nightwatcher.

 

His breaking was not an abrupt one like what we have seen from Shallan and Kal, it was more subtle and it lasted over many years. Now his becoming KR came out flat, but not the circumstances that brought him there.

 

 

As for adolin I think you are taking snap to mean more than it does, to me it implied enough is enough have to end this type thing not snap as in broken.

 

 

Adolin snapping is basically him letting his anger rule. Throughout both books, he struggles to maintain control over his emotions. His a passionate hot-headed young man with a tendency to be brash, but he tries to keep himself under control. His is much like his father at the same age, but Dalinar built this whole set of rules around him preventing him to really become the Blackthorn 2. In the scene with Sadeas, he lost it. I don't know if you ever acted out of anger? If you ever did, then you know how good it feels, how right it feels, how justified it feels and it is only afterwards, long afterwards, once the anger cools down, that you realize how much of an idiot you were for acting the way you did. So yes, to me Adolin snapping was him letting his anger rule, finally. He was overwhelmed, confused, slightly hurt and Sadeas went on taunting him again. He snapped.

 

Now the act of killing a man certainly won't break Adolin, it is how he did it. He broke every single rule Dalinar work so hard to ingrain in him. Dalinar is Adolin role model, he looks up to his father, he thinks his is the greatest man alive, his hero and now he just most certainly disappointed him. He was not up to the challenge. He came out short. The only Kohlin not chosen to be a KR. Now that is the slippery slope onto which Adolin will most likely step a foot.

[Gabriele]

Unless I'm misunderstanding you, that's exactly what happened to Adolin. He's had Sadeas hanging around aggravating him (can't think of the correct word here :/) for months, when everyone knows that Sadeas betrayed them, but he's had his hands tied by Alethi propriety and hasn't been able to do anything. So he got fed up, Snapped and killed the guy,

 

The constant aggravating certainly plays a role, but there could be more behind it. Things going on longer and being more deeply hidden. Some 'promise me, Ned'.

[Aleksiel]

Edit 2: What's the connection with the Book of Endless pages though? Do we know who gave it to her?

We've seen her use her studies, as has Shallan, as a coping mechanism, so that's definitely possible, but I think it must have been pretty central to her life to begin with. Doesn't Navani describe her as being a naturally curious child?

 

Here's the exact quote:

 

 

Jasnah smiled. “It’s a metaphor, Shallan. Many years ago, someone dear to me made a very good attempt at converting me to Vorinism. This was the method he used.”

 

Well, now there's no prove of Jasnah being homosexual. I thought for some reason she spoke of a woman here. I could stretch my previous theory enough to say some thugs killed the man she was obviously fond of/loved and it still works for me. 

[maxal]

And what if Adolin found out and she asked him to keep silent about it? That would explain his snapping.

 

Doubtful. At the time of the potential event, Adolin would have been a very young child, two years or younger. Even if he did witness it, he wouldn't remember it. Now, I wonder why Adolin hated Sadeas so much in WoK. It was not just distrust, he hated him. I have always wondered why. In WoR, it is quite obvious why, but in WoK, before the betrayal?

[Griff]

@ delightful

when I read he snapped I took it as a burst of anger and just that, not snap as in he broke,

I would be on board with him dealing with how he killed sadeas the way he did breaking him, but not the act of him killing him, I dont no am I explaining this well,

I still think we have/will have to many kholin radiants tho so I hope he doesnt become one.

I would like to see renarin come into his own and show his strong points like u said, actually liked him as a character before his reveal, forgettable as he was,but as a side kick type character so maybe my main problem is his reveal as a proto kr and how was done handled, seems like was to soon, to abrupt, to rushed, and that led to me thinkin how I do.

@ maxal said something similar to myself above so mostly agree with you on adolin

but I always thought dalinar only changed when he got the visions or at least long after his brother died

Edited May 10, 2014 by Griff

[Gabriele]

No need to witness it, there could be other ways.

 

If Adolin hated Sadeas but could not tell his father why, there's at least something hidden going on here.

[Delightful]

I always though Adolin just didn't like Sadeas because he's always insulting Dalinar (and Renarin), and is just a downright impolite, unlikeable person. Dalinar also didn't like Sadeas, and only worked with him at all to keep Elhokar safe. While it's possible there's something else behind it, I don't think it's necessarily likely. In WoK, Sadeas was a horrible person, and then furthermore proved this by betraying them. But since Gavilar's death, neither he nor Dalinar, and by extension Adolin, liked each other at all.

[shawnhargreaves]

Maybe it the way you wrote it, but something just pop into my head.... What if Jasnah was raped as a child? She would then have become very cold and distant as a coping mechanism. It would also explain why she did not search for any relationship, why she is so anxious in proposing one to Shallan....

 

I've suspected this for a while, but it's just a gut feeling without a lot of evidence to back it up.  Thanks to those who collected some of the relevant quotes!

 

Ugh to the idea of it being Gavilar, though.  Just, ugh.  I don't think it fits.

 

Not convinced by Sadeas, either.  Jasnah's writings about him don't fit that, plus it would be narratively disappointing if we learn in some future book about terrible backstory involving someone who's already dead.  No chance of closure for Jasnah there.

 

My nomination:  Amaram.   Old family friend who everyone thinks is the most honorable upright paragon imaginable, but we know he's actually a slimy villain, and Jasnah is the only character other than Kaladin who dislikes him  (for reasons that are not explained).   It fits.

[Aleksiel]

My nomination:  Amaram.   Old family friend who everyone thinks is the most honorable upright paragon imaginable, but we know he's actually a slimy villain, and Jasnah is the only character other than Kaladin who dislikes him  (for reasons that are not explained).   It fits.

 

Jasnah dislikes Amaram? She met him in the prologue and thought how there can't be a relationship between them like the one Gavilar wished, which first isn't exactly dislike and second not a reaction that shows he harmed her personally in any way. If anyone raped Jasnah (which I personally doubt), he is dead. Harming Jasnah is a death sentence, the way I read her character.

 

Jasnah works with many assassins as we've seen and is perfectly capable of killing someone on her own. If she has been wronged by anyone, she already had her revenge/justice. 

[Delightful]

Jasnah dislikes Amaram? She met him in the prologue and thought how there can't be a relationship between them like the one Gavilar wished, which first isn't exactly dislike and second not a reaction that shows he harmed her personally in any way. If anyone raped Jasnah (which I personally doubt), he is dead. Harming Jasnah is a death sentence, the way I read her character.

Jasnah works with many assassins as we've seen and is perfectly capable of killing someone on her own. If she has been wronged by anyone, she already had her revenge/justice.

The likelihood that she's taken revenge doesn't necessarily mean she wasnt broken by it.(although I find the scenario unlikely anyway, especially coming from a Sanderson book).

[Aleksiel]

The likelihood that she's taken revenge doesn't necessarily mean she wasnt broken by it.(although I find the scenario unlikely anyway, especially coming from a Sanderson book).

 

I didn't mean to imply that, I was referring to the part of the post about the person who broke/harmed Jasnah being alive.

[Delightful]

I didn't mean to imply that, I was referring to the part of the post about the person who broke/harmed Jasnah being alive.

Oh, sorry! My bad :/

[Aleksiel]

Oh, sorry! My bad :/

 

No worries, I should have left the entire quote instead of only the part on Amaram, it would have made better sense then. 

[Asejet]

You have also noticed that. Its in Jashnah's philosophy lesson when she become suddenly snap about bandits taking advantage of ladies something along the line. And it perfectly clicked when Navani tell about jashnah's sudden growth to adulthood.

Thats why she so cold.

And about griff saying that he read warbreaker later.

I also read it recently and loved it. Not every hero has to be nobel.

I have already noticed there is something off about Zahel and then i read warbreaker and that feeling....Awesome.

So i think thats all about respective.

[Asejet]

Oi its perspective

[Delightful]

Oi its perspective

FYI, there's an 'EDIT' button on the bottom right of all your posts you can use to fix typos, rather than double-posting.

Edited May 10, 2014 by Delightful

[maxal]

No need to witness it, there could be other ways.

 

If Adolin hated Sadeas but could not tell his father why, there's at least something hidden going on here.

 

Perhaps, but the age difference makes it hard... Jasnah must have been 12 or 13 at the time of the "event", which would make Adolin 3 or under as there is about a decade between the two. A child that age would not have been able to keep a secret, they just don't understand the notion of secret. He would have babbled at some point much like my 3 and a half years old daughter goes on about this other girl who pushed this other kid, but wouldn't apologize for it or when she goes and tell me about the surprise she has made for Mother's day and tries to show it to me before time while mentioning "but ssshhhhhh it's a secret".....

 

The only thing I could see is a young Adolin stumbling upon his crying cousin and trying to comfort her. Children that age would do that, usually offering their favored toy for comforting (probably his favorite wooden sword). He would know cousin Jasnah was sad, but "sad" to a child that age can be caused by many things such a hurt knee or a ripper drawing or a stain on a favored shirt.... He could have gathered that "Sadeas is a bad person, he didn't behave right" depending on what Jasnah told him, but he wouldn't be able to comprehend to full scope of what happened. He could have retain a general dislike of the person growing up, but I doubt he would have felt compelled to keep something from Dalinar, not at that age.

 

I agree however that Adolin's hate in WoK was quite extreme and mostly uncalled for. It was not just a general dislike, but pure hate. It could be it was only a reaction to Sadeas attempts to discredit Dalinar, but I always thought the reaction was a bit much. There could be something going on there or not. Just speculating.

[Aleksiel]

Jasnah's PoV shows no indication that Sadeas has harmed her. She even thought of going to him for help. Clearly wouldn't have been the case if he had done anything to her.

 

Sadeas and Dalinar were said to be on edge ever since Gavilar died, which explains Adolin's feeling towards him for me. I didn't read it as Adolin hating Sadeas until the Tower. May I ask for some quotes from WoK to show Adolin's uncalled hatred?

[Delightful]

Jasnah's PoV shows no indication that Sadeas has harmed her. She even thought of going to him for help. Clearly wouldn't have been the case if he had done anything to her.

Sadeas and Dalinar were said to be on edge ever since Gavilar died, which explains Adolin's feeling towards him for me. I didn't read it as Adolin hating Sadeas until the Tower. May I ask for some quotes from WoK to show Adolin's uncalled hatred?

I can't find the exact quotes right now, but the first Adolin POV scene Sadeas is talking about Dalinars visions derogatorily, and he gets mad. Flip to just after the chasmfiend hunt, Sadeas insults Dalinar, Adolin and Renarin, and Adolin gets mad. Adolin doesn't understand why Dalinar is talking to Sadeas when they clearly hate each other, to discover they're teaming up to manipulate a high prince and protect the king. I don't remember any other examples off hand, though Adolin kept questioning Dalinars trust of Sadeas.

[maxal]

Jasnah's PoV shows no indication that Sadeas has harmed her. She even thought of going to him for help. Clearly wouldn't have been the case if he had done anything to her.

 

Sadeas and Dalinar were said to be on edge ever since Gavilar died, which explains Adolin's feeling towards him for me. I didn't read it as Adolin hating Sadeas until the Tower. May I ask for some quotes from WoK to show Adolin's uncalled hatred?

 

Well, when they are going to the chasmfield hunt, Adolin wants to ride near the king so he could hear what Sadeas is saying. Renarin is with him and he strongly disagrees as he claims he hates how Adolin gets when he is near Sadeas. On a few occasions, Adolin looses it in front of Sadeas and tries to summon his shardblade, but Renarins talks him out of it. Adolin launches threats very early to Sadeas only to get Dalinar talking him down. There are many examples as to how much he hates him really early in the book. I have always wondered why as Dalinar does not hate nor distrust Sadeas at that point of time, therefore I doubt it was just the edge between the two that caused such hate. Or it could also be Adolin is just a brash hot-heated youth at that point willing to strike at anything he sees as a potential threat to his father no matter the consequences. He gets better control in WoR, up until the end at least.

 

Edit: Also, even after Dalinar explains to Adolin Sadeas made the ultimate sacrifice to protect Galivar, he still cannot trust him. He still keeps on hating him. Dalinar brushes it away thinking his son is just being stubborn and rebellious, much like himself always were. He reflects the two of them are too much alike which is why they clash so often, but he never gives any credit to Adolin's hate of Sadeas, he never gives it a second thought.

Edited May 10, 2014 by maxal