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Monster Melee 3-Koloss vs Troll Battle Scene Posted (Mistborn Spoilers)


Monster Melee 3-Koloss vs Troll  

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  1. 1. Who would win?



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A tad late this week (24 hour shift yesterday was a little hectic) but here is the next installment in the Monster Melee, and soon to follow, more of the Ballad of Roshone's Revenge, where I take the the winner of the polls, and create a fight scene using the tactics and battle mechanics the thread provides me with, all at the expense of Brightlord Roshone.

 

This week's match up: Troll vs Koloss!

 

So, as with the Warg, I think that Tolkien has the standard on the troll, and I'll be deferring to the Lord of the Rings Mythology. Let's assume to start with that the troll is Olog-hai, so they don't turn into stone.

 

Troll: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Middle-earth)

 

And of course, our favorite blue buddies, the Koloss (Mistborn Spoilers inside the link): http://coppermind.net/wiki/Koloss

 

I'm not against making this a group battle, and we also should determine the size of the Koloss fighting the troll. 

 

Just like last week, I'm going to withhold my vote until battle parameters have been agreed upon, and some discussion ensues. 

Also, I want to say that the more discussion we can get in, the more ideas I can draw from the thread to create a dynamic battle scene, and gives you the opportunity to find your ideas in the fight! 

 

I'm also open to taking ideas for future Monster Melee polls, so have at it!

 

Edit: Fixed my messed up troll link that really confused me as to how I messed that up.

Edited by EMTrevor
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I'd say a few medium sized ones would be good. It will be a tough fight, but the Koloss will win. They're just much stronger.

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Not hugely familiar with Tolkien's trolls. But, I have to say, koloss can be up to thirteen feet tall and wield weapons fitting of their scale. They are not naturally well-organized, but they can be efficiently directed in combat provided the right kind of commander.

 

In a long term battle, I would also wonder whether koloss can spike trolls. If so, then the koloss would undoubtedly win, slowly assimilating their enemies into their horde.

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Upvote for your troll link. 

At first I was thinking of the cinematic LotR trolls, with their exaggerated size (like the cave troll from Fellowship). Advantage: troll.

However, looking at the actual descriptions of Tolkien's trolls (e.g. this summary) makes me realize that physically a large troll and a large Koloss are pretty similar.

 

I think a good group battle of 8-on-8 would be manageable, and last long enough for some of the different advantages to come into play:

  • Olog-hai wear armor and have spiked scales, as well as more variety in weapons. They are the "improved" version of trolls, like Uruk-hai are "improved" orcs, so I posit that they are going to be substantially smarter than the Koloss (not that hard to do).
  • On the Koloss side, I envision them being stronger and more brutal. Especially when the Koloss have whipped up their emotions into berserker mode, the trolls are at a serious disadvantage. However, it may take a short time for them to get into fighting form, during which the trolls could gain an early lead and decide the contest.

 

Two more thoughts:

In calm-Koloss mode, they always pause to give or listen to an explanation for why they killed someone. "He ate my horse." This could harm their fighting tempo, or simply provide some side humor.

If the Koloss win, and some of the trolls survive, the Koloss may start spiking trolls. That would result in a truly frightening monster. 

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Not hugely familiar with Tolkien's trolls. But, I have to say, koloss can be up to thirteen feet tall and wield weapons fitting of their scale. They are not naturally well-organized, but they can be efficiently directed in combat provided the right kind of commander.

 

In a long term battle, I would also wonder whether koloss can spike trolls. If so, then the koloss would undoubtedly win, slowly assimilating their enemies into their horde.

 

I highly doubt that koloss can spike trolls. The spikes had to be put in very specific places in the human body (there are stated to be between two and three hundred bind points) and troll physiology is so radically different from humans that there would be no way to predict what would be created unless Ruin himself was directing them (and I doubt we can include Ruin since then we'd also have to include Sauron and the koloss and trolls would be pretty irrelevant at that point).

Edited by Mathologist
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Eight on eight huh....I'd better get a start on this battle early. You guys are definitely going to force me to grow as a writer from these threads, but I've always enjoyed a challenge!

 

Been awhile since I read the mistborn trilogy, but don't koloss move surprisingly fast for their size? Versus the trolls that move slow which makes sense for their size?

 

I'll have to go back and do some research. I'll get back to you on that tomorrow, if not later tonight. 

 

So we've got our groups set. I think that we should also decide on armaments. 

Each of the Koloss should be armed with swords appropriated to their size, but it's the size that's the true variable we need to work out. The troll we need to decide how many will be armed with what weapons, how many be armored, and attempt to scale this to equal out any advantages between size and equipment. I think that maybe two fully grown Koloss with two fully armored trolls, four medium Koloss, and four unarmored trolls that are still equipped with edged weapons, and  two small Koloss, with two trolls armed with clubs. 

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If it helps narrow things down, from what I remember it may come up in the scene where Sazed examines the Koloss army that is being led by Tekiel. A big one suddenly turns on another one, and cleaves the smaller one in two. The description said something like the arm moved in a blur. Also when he is first observing them, I believe he is shocked at how quickly they gain on him, or approach him. I am paraphrasing this, and this is all from memory though. 

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Which Koloss are we talking? TFE, HoA, or AoL. The difference between them being intelligence. Forgive me if I'm wrong but didn't sazed and vin both note that the Koloss we're becoming more intelligent and independent after The Lord Ruler was killed e.g Human. As for the Koloss in AoL, they were basically just very strong and fast humans. This needs to be considered. As well as the context of the situation. E.g are the Koloss prepared or taken by surprise.

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Eight on eight huh....I'd better get a start on this battle early. You guys are definitely going to force me to grow as a writer from these threads, but I've always enjoyed a challenge!

 

8v8 was just a suggestion to throw out there. I like the breakdown you came up with, but feel free to modify for ease of writing.

 

Also, location: I vote for the ruins of a Veden town after the civil war there has swept through.

 

Which Koloss are we talking? TFE, HoA, or AoL. [...] As well as the context of the situation. E.g are the Koloss prepared or taken by surprise.

HoA would be my choice. With the Koloss leading in the polls, I'm envisioning a case where Roshone and the trolls ambush the Koloss and inflict initial casualties (maybe helped by the fact that one or two Koloss have already attacked each other while the ambush is setting up), but that the trolls are quickly overmatched. Somehow, either by Koloss intent or by strange battle accident, Roshone gets one hemalurgic spike to grant him just a little more strength and insanity.*

*this preview brought to you by Speculation Inc.

 

 

 

Also, ideas for future matchups;

It turns out these are harder to come up with than I thought. I think it's because most of the cool creatures I think of are characters rather than monsters, which makes for a different kind of fight/poll.

I would love to get a spy vs spy kind of thing going with the kandra, but the only matchup I could think of for that was Mystique from X-men. Any other ideas?

 

From the Cosmere or Brandon-verse: kandra, wild chalklings, Librarians of Alexandria, bloodsealer's skeletals, chasmfiend, shade, Kalad's Phantoms

From other works: golem (Bartimaeus version), sea demon (Lightbringer), grievers (Maze Runner), velociraptors (Jurassic Park version), King Kong, giant spiders (Tolkien), dementors (Harry Potter)

I think the chasmfiend/balrog fight mentioned in an earlier thread is too much of a power mismatch. The chasmfiend might have a better chance against the Watcher in the Water, if we're going Tolkien.

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Why is Roshone joining this melee? And the reason the Koloss become more intelligent in later books is first to maintain their number, they use the spikes the Lord Ruler provides to spike humans into new Koloss. No new spikes since Lord Ruler is dead, so they reuse old ones. As they reuse them, the spikes start losing the hemalurgic charge, making the change less and less effective till they become more and more "human" with each generation. Then in AoL Harmony allows them to breed true, thus making a race. So it is my opinion for this bout, the koloss pre Lord Ruler's death should be used, and they max out at 13 feet according to various wikis

Edited by P4thf1nd3r
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The first Monster Melee topic I posted was Whitespine Vs Warg, and Kobold King made the suggestion that Roshone be riding the Warg into battle to get revenge against the Whitespine. It solved a lot of problems writing wise, as it gave me a good perspective to go with, and was pretty satisfying to boot, so I decided to expand that story arch every week with these monster melee polls. The narrative portion of the threads I've nicknamed "The Ballad of Roshone's Revenge." He and the Whitespine will be recurring characters in the narratives every week. 

 

I think we should use WoA Koloss, as we have a solid wealth of information about them, whereas there's precious little to go from TFE to show how the Lord Ruler affected them. This also negates the extra hemalurgic charges being infused into the Koloss, as they haven't had to reuse spikes enough at this point. Same reasoning for not using AoL Koloss, we simply don't have enough information. HoA Koloss also are under the direct command of either inquisitors, Vin, or Ruin, and I think we should keep them more wild than tame. 

 

Also, I've been skimming through the battles as best I can, and I'm not seeing any mention of supernatural speed. I think the main difference between the troll and the Koloss is how...well...dense the trolls are compared to the Koloss. Trolls seem to be more squat and bulky, whereas the Koloss share proportions closer to humans. This gives them more of a lithe build that would be easier to maneuver than the bulky builds of the Trolls. Really, at least IMO, it seems that the difference would have to be the trolls have a natural source for strength, while the Koloss have both their natural bulk, and the Hemalurgic power to add, so they would have abilities that are incongruous with their bodies, but not grossly exaggerated. I'll keep looking to try and hash this out for sure though.

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Found it, included page and quotes below:

 

Well of Ascension page 215:

"the koloss snapped, grabbing the pack with an inhumanly quick swipe of the arm. It tossed the pack to another koloss."

 

I think there is more, but I will need to look further. 

 

edit: also the koloss in question that did so was a large one with its skin just starting to stretch. Sazed stated earlier than an 8 foot tall Koloss's skin fit but didn't seem to sit right, so that would imply in my mind that the one that snatched the pack was perhaps 9 to 10 feet tall and still able to move inhumanly fast, so the speed isn't necessarily linked to the size of the koloss. 

Edited by P4thf1nd3r
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My vote is that the trolls may grab the advantage in the beginning but the non-berserk Koloss will still be even with the trolls but as soon as they rage out they will dominate. Because the Koloss are somewhat skilled, so will be able to match them at the start and then when they get enraged they will be stronger and faster.

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Lots of different trolls about.

 

Still, bias aside, trolls are quite abit larger then koloss, being describes as averaging 18 feet tall while koloss wont grow above 13 feet or so. So I´d say the koloss would be up rust creek, and they wont be clever enough to use a paddle.

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Lots of different trolls about.

 

Still, bias aside, trolls are quite abit larger then koloss, being describes as averaging 18 feet tall while koloss wont grow above 13 feet or so. So I´d say the koloss would be up rust creek, and they wont be clever enough to use a paddle.

 that was my thoughts as well but i feel like the 8 on 8 match up is kinda unfair especially as some trolls have armour (I don't think Koloss know what armour is really). I think a 8 Koloss to 5 trolls would be a fairer match.

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One thing to remember - Koloss are hemalurgic creations with 4 spikes of Strength, which is described to work as a weak Allomantic pewter. Their muscles are, accounting for decay, and not accounting for the fact that the spikes are recharged between uses, adding to charge (P4thf1nd3r, they reuse the spikes by killing humans, as described, IIRC, in HoA), they have muscles that are 2 to 4 times as strong as is natural for creatures of corresponding size, *and* have improved speed and durability (and apparently pain tolerance, given that they walk around with their skin either loose or ripping up around all orifices).

Quotes:

 

I think that the koloss were more intelligent than we wanted to give them credit for being. For instance, originally, they used only spikes the Lord Ruler gave them to make new members. He would provide the metal and the unfortunate skaa captives, and the koloss would create new “recruits.”

At the Lord Ruler’s death, then, the koloss should quickly have died out. This was how he had designed them. If they got free from his control, he expected them to kill themselves off and end their own rampage. However, they somehow made the deduction that spikes in the bodies of fallen koloss could be harvested, then reused.

They then no longer required a fresh supply of spikes. I often wonder what effect the constant reuse of spikes had on their population. A spike can only hold so much of a Hemalurgic charge, so they could not create spikes that granted infinite strength, no matter how many people those spikes killed and drew power from. However, did the repeated reuse of spikes perhaps bring more humanity to the koloss they made?

 

Usage of Iron spikes, on Kandra:

 

He now had four spikes, two Blessings, and was one of the most powerful kandra alive. His muscles strengthened, TenSoon jumped confidently from the top of the rock formation, falling some twenty feet to land safely on the ash-covered ground below. He took off, running far more quickly now. The Blessing of Potency resembled the power of an Allomancer burning pewter, but it was not the same. It would not keep TenSoon moving indefinitely, nor could he flare it for an extra burst of power. On the other hand, it required no metals to fuel it.

 

But, as mentioned above, there are many kinds of trolls... And yet, the link says that a hobbit could kill an Olog-hai.. (I must admit I cannot exactly remember what the battle was like)

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I love the idea of a pol but isn't your audience kind of Bias? I mean you are asking a bunch of sanderson fanatics (I use Fanatic endearingly) who would win? Sanderson's creation or Tolkien's?

Well, there's a nonresponse bias for the 17th shard members who don't vote, there's a possible repsonse bias if people don't read to see what the final battle parameters are, my sample size is too small to be representative, there's the non random selection bias, and the bias of being a Sanderson website.

So, in a word, yes :D

It also won't be Sanderson vs other universe all the time either, and I trust people to make good judgement calls, and to discuss if they disagree.

Edited by EMTrevor
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Well, there's a nonresponse bias for the 17th shard members who don't vote, there's a possible repsonse bias if people don't read to see what the final battle parameters are, my sample size is too small to be representative, there's the non random selection bias, and the bias of being a Sanderson website.

So, in a word, yes :D

It also won't be Sanderson vs other universe all the time either, and I trust people to make good judgement calls, and to discuss if they disagree.

 

no problems seems like you know what's going on.

 

And I'm gonna have fun and say the trolls have this.

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