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What would the other Shards be?


Joseph Archuleta

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there are 10 known shards out of 16, if you think about it you can separate them into 4 different groups.

Honor, Devotion, Ambition, Odium. these are all states of mentality.

Cultivation, Preservation, Ruin. these are how something might change through time.

Autonomy, Domination. these are states of governance or rule.

as for Endowment it seems that she is the only one of this group so far.

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Going by your cathegories here, I’d say that there should be a Shard of Chaos or Anarchy among the governance ones. Maybe Democracy though, that would be fun. Or a Shard of Buerocracy (did I spell that right?). 

Endowment has always been wierd, I think. Dunno what grouping it would be part of. Things you can do/acts would be my suggestion. Retribution might fit in there (it has been a popular suggestion in the past). 

There are a lot of other threads on this as well, with a ton of good (and probably less good) suggestions. 

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9 hours ago, Joseph Archuleta said:

there are 10 known shards out of 16, if you think about it you can separate them into 4 different groups.

Honor, Devotion, Ambition, Odium. these are all states of mentality.

Cultivation, Preservation, Ruin. these are how something might change through time.

Autonomy, Domination. these are states of governance or rule.

as for Endowment it seems that she is the only one of this group so far.

43 minutes ago, Scion of the Mists said:

Awesome! I took a crack at this in the thread linked above and I too had difficulty placing Endowment in a category, you may be right that she is in her own.

I had a hard time placing Ambition, it is a state of mind, but it is more focused on achieving for ones self while the Odium, Honor and Devotion are focused on others. I feel like it might fit with the Hide/Survive shard. I speculated in my post that the Survival Shard could be Fear, but Brandon was later asked and said it is not. 

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#86 

Seonid

I've heard about a Shard that just wants to survive, hiding off-- it doesn't have a planet it doesn't--

Brandon Sanderson

Right.

Seonid

--out there in space, trying to survive. Does it have the intent of like Fear, or something like that?

Brandon Sanderson

The intent is related but only tangentially. Mostly it just knows what's going on and is smart enough to get out of there.

In another WoB Brandon mentions it being "quite intelligent" in it's decision. Looking at the synonyms for intelligence I like Perception and Intuition. Wisdom could also work. I think this is an aspect of the self like Ambition. 

 
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Warsaw signing (March 18, 2017)
#6 

Questioner

<Could you tell me something about the Shard that is hiding>?

Brandon Sanderson

That is a pretty good spoiler, I'm giving you a RAFO card. <high> Let's just say they are quite intelligent in their decision to not be caught.

 
Footnote: based on Oversleep's notes it's probably about Survival Shard

 

 
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in·tel·li·gence
inˈteləjəns/
noun
 
  1. 1.
    the ability to acquire and apply knowledge and skills.
    "an eminent man of great intelligence"
    synonyms: intellectual capacity, mental capacity, intellect, mind, brain(s), IQ, brainpower, judgment, reasoning, understanding, comprehension; 
    acumen, wit, sense, insight, perception, penetration, discernment, smartness, canniness, astuteness, intuition, acuity, cleverness, brilliance, ability; 
     

 

 

I thought the missing change / lifecycle Shard could be Ingenuity before I saw this WoB. I think it is along those lines. 

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Sofia signing (March 28, 2017)

#7

Questioner

If you were entrusted with a Shard of Adonalsium, which Shard?

Brandon Sanderson

Ummm... Heh heh heh... maybe Ingenuity. 

Edited by Child of Hodor
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My personal favourites are:

Apathy/Dispassion/Detachment/Objectivity

Prudence (i.e. the survival Shard)

Jealousy (I think there has to be at least one more ‘evil’ Shard.

Aptitude

And should Harmony somehow acquire Cultivation, ‘Potency’ (could also work as a stand-alone Shard I suppose).

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I'm wondering if those hints about intelligence aren't more simple than that.  The Shard Intellect.  That would go with Odium, which is basically Passion, or emotion.  It would actually, sort of be his opposite.  One is pure logical thought, the other pure emotional outrage.  In fact, it seems that many of the Shards have an opposite.

 

Preservation is obviously the opposite of Ruin.  

Honor's opposite would likely be Autonomy.  Honor bounds, Autonomy loosens.

Devotion is the opposite of Dominion.  Devotion is about giving everything to someone else, Dominion is about taking everything from someone else.

Cultivation, the word, is not just about growth, but directed, purposeful growth.  It's about work.  Cultivation is Work.  So Cultivation's opposite could be Rest.  I know Cultivation seems related to Ruin and Preservation, but I don't think they're in the same grouping.  Ruin doesn't care about life, growth or anything, if the universe was already dead, and just decaying, he would be happy.  Same with Preservation.  If the universe was frozen in time, he'd be happy.  Cultivation is about the physical world, specifically.  Life, in general.

Endowment could be the opposite of Ambition, in that Endowment is about enhancing others, while Ambition is about enhancing one's self.

 

Well, after writing that, I'm noticing a pattern.  There are 16 shards.  There are also 16 metals.  Metals are classified as Internal/External, and Pushing/Pulling.  And then they are Physical, Mental, Enhancing and Temporal.  Already, I'm seeing similarities.  Ruin and Preservation are Temporal, one makes things stop and the other makes things go.  So I'd classify them both as External, as they affect what's around them, not themselves.  Ruin, after all, did not want to die, but Preservation was willing to die to preserve others.  

Ambition, Devotion, Dominion and Endowment are Enhancement, merely the focus of the enhancement changes.  

I don't know where to put Honor, Autonomy, Odium and intellect.  Honor is Pulling, and Autonomy is Pushing, and I'm pretty sure Odium would be Pushing, and Intellect would be Pulling, but I get stuck on the Internal/External axis.  I feel that Honor would be internal pulling, because Honor DOES impose his own ideals on himself, unlike Preservation, who doesn't.  But, honor does bind other things as well, though that could just be a side effect of his Investiture.  I'm going to say Honor is Internal Pulling.  Same with Autonomy as Internal Pushing, breaking one's own binds. This is even seen in the Investitures, Honor sucking in Stormlight, and White Sand using their internal water.  One pulls, the other pushes, though it could be argued, then, that Honor is External pulling.  Still, I feel it's an internal shard.  One is binding themselves with oaths, not binding others (except for a few surges).  But whether they are Mental or Physical is another question.

As for Odium and Intellect, they seem internal, but I'm actually thinking they're external.  Odium pushes, definitely, but he pushes others.  He wants to push everyone else.  And Intellect takes in information from the outside universe.  So while they are Mental, I think they are External.  And if Honor and Autonomy are also Mental, then we have that four down as well.

 

So the only ones we wouldn't know are the Internal Temporal Shards, the External pulling Mental Shard, and the other three Physical Shards.   

If you look at the chart below, it makes sense. I may not have every shard exactly right, some were harder to place than others, but these groupings make sense.  Once more are released, this chart may have to be rearranged a bit, but I'm wondering if Brandon wound up grouping his Shards the same way he did his Metals.

 

Temporal Shards

Preservation - Keep others the same - External Pulling Temporal Shards

Ruin - Allow others to decay - External Pushing Temporal Shards

 

Mental Shards

Odium - Feel passionately about everything - External Pushing Mental Shards  

Unknown (Intellect?) - Understand universe - External Pulling Mental Shards  

Honor - Binds self -  Internal Pulling Mental Shard

Autonomy - Loosens self -  Internal Pushing Mental Shard

 

Enhancement Shards

Ambition - Enhance Self - Internal pulling Enhancement Shard

Devotion - Give of self - Internal Pushing Enhancement Shard

Dominion - Take from Others - External Pulling Enhancement Shard

Endowment - Enhance Others - External Pushing Enhancement Shard

 

Physical Shards

Cultivation - To make grow? - External Pushing Physical Shard?

 

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@Tglassy I agree intellect is more straightforward and the same idea. I went with synonyms because Brandon used Odium instead of Hatred which was the name he originally had in mind.  

That's a good catch on the metal charts. Brandon likes 16 because of how divisible it is. He came up with the metal chart first and then the Shards. However, I don't think they'll have the same category types because he said he split Adonalsium based on it's nature which to him was "personality". That doesn't really work with the metal chart category names.   

 

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#4 

Aurimus [PENDING REVIEW]

What was the thematic decision behind the number 16? Why did you choose that?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

I really like how divisible it was. It looked really cool when I was playing with things like an Allomantic table and whatnot. It was mostly an aesthetic choice. Like, it just felt right.

Aurimus [PENDING REVIEW]

So was it originally the Shards or the metals you decided on?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

So, I started with the metals. And then expanded out to that, yeah. So what you've gotta remember is, like, I write Elantris without knowledge of the cosmere. I knew I was gonna do something, but I didn't know what I was gonna do. And then I wrote Dragonsteel, and in Dragonsteel I had all sorts of theories and plans, but I never canonized any of that. And when I sat down to write Mistborn, I said, "All right. We're building the cosmere for real now." And before then I had just kind of been winging it. So when I did Aether of Night, which I put Shards in, I was like "Okay, there'll be some of these things, and what-not." Mistborn was, like, the first real cosmere book, if that makes any sense.

 

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#85 Share  Copy

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

Shards. We started with fairly obvious ones, magic wise. Trying to keep this spoiler free, so: Ruin, Preservation, this kind of thing. Then we get the weird ones. Why do we have Shards that can only exist in the mind of a sentient creature? Like the concept of Honor can only be done when it's carried out, essentially, by a sentient creature.

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

So when I split Adonalsium I said, "I'm going to take aspects of Adonalsium's nature." And this involves personality to me. So the Shattering of Adonalsium was primal forces attached to certain aspects of personality. And so I view every one of them this way. And when I wrote Mistborn we had Ruin and Preservation. They are the primal forces of entropy and whatever you call the opposite, staying-the-same-ism-y. Like, you've got these two contrasts, between things changing and things not changing. And then humans do have a part, there's a personality. Ruin is a charged term for something that actually is the way that life exists. And Preservation is a charged term for stasis, for staying the same. And those are the personality aspects, and the way they are viewed by people and by the entity that was Adonalsium.

So I view this for all of them. Like, Honor is the sense of being bound by rules, even when those rules, you wouldn't have to be bound by. And there's this sense that that is noble, that's the honor aspect to it, but there's also something not honorable about Honor if taken from the other direction. So a lot of them do kind of have this both... cultural component, I would say, that trying to represent something that is also natural. And not all of them are gonna have a 100% balance between those two things, I would say, because there's only so many fundamental laws of the universe that I can ascribe personalities to in that way. 

So I find Honor very interesting, but I find Autonomy a very interesting one for the exact same reason. What does autonomy mean? We attach a lot to it, but what is the actual, if you get rid of the charged terms, what does it mean? And this is where you end up with things like Odium claiming "I am all emotion." But then there's a charged term for it that is associated with this Shard. I'm not going to tell you whether he's right or not, but he has an argument. 

Brandon has said the Shards do not all have opposites. If Adonalsium was composed of all offsetting intents it would have really struggle to do anything, like Harmony currently struggles to act in Mistborn Era 2. Adonalsium created most everything in the Cosmere, it was a fairly active entity. 

 

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Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017)

 

#4

Shardbound [PENDING REVIEW]

Do all Shards have a direct paired opposite intent...

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

No, I would say no, they do not all have a directly paired opposite intent.

 

 

Edited by Child of Hodor
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2 hours ago, MountainKing said:

I don't think we should group shards into groups because the actual unfiltered intents are not grouped into groups. . And if Unity is another proper interpretation of Honor's mandate, then the system falls apart because Unity is not a state of mind

Maybe not all of them, but at least two sets clearly do belong to smaller subsets within the larger whole. Namely that of what I dub the ‘Change Trinity’, that is Ruin, Preservation and Cultivation, and also Devotion and Odium, and if I’m correct a third unknown Shard that is in between them, be it Apathy, Objectivity, Dispassion, etc.

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I agree that Ruin-Cultivation-Preservation create a triangle of change.  Breaking things down, building things up, maintaining current state.  It also neatly shows why Harmony is having so much difficulty in taking productive actions on Scadrial, the piece that he is missing is a very important one.

I also think there is another triple axis of Dominion-Devotion-Autonomy relating to rulership.  Dominion rules over others, Autonomy rules over self, Devotion submits to others.

Borrowing from Sefirot imagery, I would highly suspect there would be the classic Judgement vs. Mercy axis of Godhood.  Brandon has suggested that Odium and Honor are actually somewhat compatible shards, and I would tend to agree.  Both fall strongly on that Judgement side of the axis (Honor judging based on rules, Odium based on emotion).  Theoretically that would imply there should be two shards more associated with the forgiveness/mercy side of the axis.  I believe Endowment may be one such shard (as a form of charity).  I think the missing shard would be something like Mercy.

Another axis from Sefirot is the intellectual.  Frequently this is expressed as a 2 part Wisdom and Reason.  Occasionally Knowledge is listed as a balance of the previous two.

Although not all shards require a perfect pairing, I do think it would make sense if Ambition had a counterpart in Contentment.

As Adonalsium was a being of creation perhaps certain creative themes could exist.  BeautyUtility, Elegance

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I would like to know how adonalsium was shattered. What if there was a linchpin of sorts? Something that once removed allowed the attackers to shatter god? And maybe Hoid is trying to assemble a replacement (for motives unknown). The reason I am saying this in reply to ur post (which is really cool btw) is what if there are only 15 shards because one is missing? Missing because it was destroyed in order to facilitate the shattering. If so what would it be? 

Edited by PelekinikeleT
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13 hours ago, Feruchemist said:

Perhaps a shard of Caution or Self-preservation could be possible.

‘Prudence’. That sounds way better I think. Although considering that Adonalsium, a genuine God, allowed itself to be shattered, I have to conclude that self-preservation was not a high priority for it. @Calderis has a pretty interesting take on this issue.

13 hours ago, Subvisual Haze said:

I agree that Ruin-Cultivation-Preservation create a triangle of change.  Breaking things down, building things up, maintaining current state.  It also neatly shows why Harmony is having so much difficulty in taking productive actions on Scadrial, the piece that he is missing is a very important one.

Agreed 100%. I’m unashamedly keen for Harmony to somehow pick up Cultivation as well and effectively complete himself; I think ‘Potency’ would be an extremely fitting name for what he would become if he did.

BTW, as I understand it, Brandon has confirmed that ‘Devotion’ is essentially being used synonymously with ‘Love’. So it isn’t Doninion and Autonomy that she forms a subgroup with, but rather Odium and whichever mystery Shard (if any) is in between the two. Personally I’m fond of ‘Apathy’, but ‘Objectivity’ or ‘Dispassion’ have kind of grown on me too.

 

Edited by Fanghur Rahl
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1 hour ago, Fanghur Rahl said:

‘Prudence’. That sounds way better I think. Although considering that Adonalsium, a genuine God, allowed itself to be shattered, I have to conclude that self-preservation was not a high priority for it. @Calderis has a pretty interesting take on this issue.

 

True, I was merely speculating.

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  • 1 month later...
On 27/09/2018 at 6:40 AM, Chaos said:

You meant to post this in Cosmere Discussion, as this isn't Stormlight centric :) I've moved it there for you.

Hey Chaos, it's a pity you weren't Cosmere Admin when Rashek had a similar problem "posting" Scadrial into its new orbit...

 

Also, I'm personally hoping that one of the Shards will turn out to be Humor "God's own Divine sense of humour, separated from the puns that gave it context" (as they say). 

Edited by Croaker's Apprentice
spelling error !
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12 minutes ago, AxeliustheGrizzled said:

I feel like we need a Discord Shard, anyone agree? It would go with the hypothetical Ruin-Preservation-Cultivation thing.

We actually already have that, technically:

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chasmfriend's friend (Paraphrased)

My friend asked for Brandon to write something about Harmony in her Alloy of Law.

Brandon Sanderson

There's another name Harmony could go by if he weren't able to control the conflict between his halves… *to Zas* Have you guys figured that one out yet? Oh, I'm not going to say anything. You have it on recording… I was pretty sneaky with that one so I don't know if you have it or not.

source
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Shallan's Ward [PENDING REVIEW]

While Sazed holds Preservation and Ruin, could his intent change from Harmony to Discord?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

It is possible

source

 

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