The Chat Thread

[AonEne he/him]

Can we not have a timeskip this time? I think the Mutare Omnes plot @Blessing of Potency and I have been working toward is going to happen then, and it would cause weird time distortions if we skipped a few years. (Though I suppose with that one plot that was proposed...) I also seem to remember Ark saying his current plot might continue into the next era.

Eh, I'd say keep power levels. This seems to be working fine. Likewise, keep scoring. One thing I have noticed is that people are occasionally unhappy about the character limit - hasn't seemed to pose any real problems so far that I've read but we could maybe extend it by a character or two? Just a suggestion, I don't really care.

*takes the opportunity to bring up the set-way-in-the-past plot she suggested earlier* We haven't done any prequels yet, and it could be fun; we definitely do need to decide some things if we're doing it, but a number of people seemed interested.

Just my opinion, take it with a pinch of copper and all that.

[Voidus]

I think if we were to do a prequel it'd need to be in parallel to a present-day plot, otherwise people would have to leave some characters for several months and be unable to RP them until we got back to the present day. But I do like the idea.

I'd also prefer either no or a very small time skip (Maybe a couple of months)

[AonEne he/him]

5 minutes ago, Voidus said:

I think if we were to do a prequel it'd need to be in parallel to a present-day plot, otherwise people would have to leave some characters for several months and be unable to RP them until we got back to the present day.

Oh definitely while other plots are going on I agree.

5 minutes ago, Voidus said:

Maybe a couple of months

See, to me even this ^ is long.

[+Ark1002]

I have one complaint with lack of timeskip.

Many people in the AV have children or want to have children in rp

Without a timeskip, we won't ever get to rp them, at least not for multiple years

[MetaTerminal he/him]

44 minutes ago, Voidus said:

But do we want a timeskip? And if so by how much? Do we want to retain current power levels, or raise/lower them? Or eliminate scoring altogether? Do we want to expand the setting at all? Explore the wider world a little more? More worldhopping possibly?

I’d like a small timeskip, because it means my neglected characters can actually participate 

That being said, I think it would be interesting to have a timeskip some time soon - not only because of the children thing, but also because it would be interesting to see how events play out long-term, and how history (ie the However Many Years of Peace) reflects on them.

I’m happy to continue everything else as is; my only comment would be that I would want the transition to change the status quo somehow, but that’s more on the plot of Era 3 than the actual transition.

[Rushu42 she/her]

The issue with a timeskip is that we'd all have to decide what happened during those years. If one person thinks that, during that time, the DA would have taken over the world, then that's going to pose a problem for the rest of the Alleyverse. And saying that everything remained roughly the same could also be a problem. A newly formed guild, for example, wouldn't be able to grow, and would have effectively stayed at a few members for years. 

For it to work, we'd have to carefully organize a timeline that takes the actions of every character into account. It's not entirely unfeasible, but it would take some effort.

 

[old man moomba he/him]

3 minutes ago, Rushu42 said:

The issue with a timeskip is that we'd all have to decide what happened during those years. If one person thinks that, during that time, the DA would have taken over the world, then that's going to pose a problem for the rest of the Alleyverse. And saying that everything remained roughly the same could also be a problem. A newly formed guild, for example, wouldn't be able to grow, and would have effectively stayed at a few members for years. 

For it to work, we'd have to carefully organize a timeline that takes the actions of every character into account. It's not entirely unfeasible, but it would take some effort.

 

Oh, it's not that hard. We did a big planning thing before the end of Era 2 so we could figure everything out. For stuff that happens during a timeskip, people will usually write character development scenes of what their character did.

[Voidus]

14 minutes ago, Rushu42 said:

If one person thinks that, during that time, the DA would have taken over the world, then that's going to pose a problem for the rest of the Alleyverse.

Oh we wouldn't do that. After all we've already taken it over, no need to do it again. 

[+Sorana she/her]

I'd like to be able for Althea to 'really' advance to the oath she'd spoken during this era. So we maybe need a solution at least for KR and how they advance.

Regarding the timeskip: difficult. I'm part of those that want to play a child of an active character, but then I see no real reason for another skip of 15/16  years. And I know that such a long timeskip will make it really difficult to  go on with a character. So I'm fine with both, although I'd like to have at least a few months.

EDIT: I would be happy if the new main plot didn't start right away, but if there was some time for rp character development. I have some ideas, but with a mainplot running it's hard to have a character do something else.

Edited June 27, 2019 by Sorana

[kenod]

I personally don't have any issues with it going either way, as long as we're not doing time-skips larger than 1-2 years. I think it depends on how the current plot ends though, and what we're planning for the next Era.

[Silva]

19 hours ago, Ax's Boyfriend said:

I have one complaint with lack of timeskip.

Many people in the AV have children or want to have children in rp

Without a timeskip, we won't ever get to rp them, at least not for multiple years

I agree. At some point we should have a larger time skip to make this possible. I already push the limits on characters' youth, but even I draw the line at RPing a 5 year old for long stretches of time (though Compile is technically not an average five year old...).

That time skip doesn't need to happen right now though. The characters we have in play at the moment are fine and a lot of us don't just want to drop them immediately. Like Sorana suggested, at least a few months might be necessary after the main plot finishes. Some of that could still be RPed so things like Mutare Omnes could still end up where they want it to.

TL;DR: Have a long time skip at some point, but it doesn't have to be now.

[I think I am here. he/him]

For the timeskip: I'm in the same camp. I'm one of those who wants to play children of active characters, but I can see why another timeskip of that sort of length would be troublesome for others who have plots going on or don't want to suddenly age their characters much. Agreed with Silva in the respect that we might want to have one at some point, but it doesn't have to be this one. A couple months would be good, though.

[overlord stick]

I think I read somewhere that there's a limit to how many guilds you can join, is that a thing and if so how many?

[MacThorstenson he/him]

Just now, Emperor Stick said:

I think I read somewhere that there's a limit to how many guilds you can join, is that a thing and if so how many?

There’s not an official limit. However, Specific guilds may trust trust you less if you are an active member of multiple guilds. 

There is a limit in regards to a census that we take occasionally. For that you can only be counted toward one guild, because it’s results can change things IC.  

[Sherlock Holmes he/him]

Okay, guys, guess who's back in the subforum!

*crickets*

...

Me!

Anyways, I was thinking about potential changes that could be made to the characters system. Me and Ark were talking about the matter that you can't actually put all of your character's skills, whether or not they're relevant or worth any real points, on their character sheet, since you'll be over the allotted 150 points. I was wondering if we could expand it to 200, or maybe even 250, so we can have more interesting roleplay in general. Having characters with several skills and Investiture is hard with the current system, and I believe Ark brought up that Radiants can't progress in their Oaths since it would skyrocket the amount of points the character is worth. And, additionally, I think the skills section of the Index is incomplete (categories having to do with mental powers or miscellaneous talents, such as extraordinary focus or climbing ability, don't exist). 

Please quote me or mention me if you respond to this post, thanks!

[kenod]

7 minutes ago, Ark's Boyfriend said:

Okay, guys, guess who's back in the subforum!

*crickets*

...

Me!

Anyways, I was thinking about potential changes that could be made to the characters system. Me and Ark were talking about the matter that you can't actually put all of your character's skills, whether or not they're relevant or worth any real points, on their character sheet, since you'll be over the allotted 150 points. I was wondering if we could expand it to 200, or maybe even 250, so we can have more interesting roleplay in general. Having characters with several skills and Investiture is hard with the current system, and I believe Ark brought up that Radiants can't progress in their Oaths since it would skyrocket the amount of points the character is worth. And, additionally, I think the skills section of the Index is incomplete (categories having to do with mental powers or miscellaneous talents, such as extraordinary focus or climbing ability, don't exist). 

Please quote me or mention me if you respond to this post, thanks!

More skill points (and possibly Investure points as well) could be fun. Currently balancing skills is difficult, and its hard to create a character with skills fitting them (example, almost no GB characters have the assassination skill). It would also allow for better character development if we're keeping characters from the current era.

As for the skills section being incomplete, I think that's mostly because creating a listing for every possibly skill would be way too much text and scores, so it's easier to just have the mods use their own judgement for that, same as how we score Epic powers and Smedry Talents.

[Sherlock Holmes he/him]

1 minute ago, kenod said:

More skill points (and possibly Investure points as well) could be fun. Currently balancing skills is difficult, and its hard to create a character with skills fitting them (example, almost no GB characters have the assassination skill). It would also allow for better character development if we're keeping characters from the current era.

As for the skills section being incomplete, I think that's mostly because creating a listing for every possibly skill would be way too much text and scores, so it's easier to just have the mods use their own judgement for that, same as how we score Epic powers and Smedry Talents.

Agreed. 

I think a few important new ones should be added, though.

[Silva]

13 minutes ago, Ark's Boyfriend said:

Anyways, I was thinking about potential changes that could be made to the characters system. Me and Ark were talking about the matter that you can't actually put all of your character's skills, whether or not they're relevant or worth any real points, on their character sheet, since you'll be over the allotted 150 points. I was wondering if we could expand it to 200, or maybe even 250, so we can have more interesting roleplay in general. Having characters with several skills and Investiture is hard with the current system, and I believe Ark brought up that Radiants can't progress in their Oaths since it would skyrocket the amount of points the character is worth. And, additionally, I think the skills section of the Index is incomplete (categories having to do with mental powers or miscellaneous talents, such as extraordinary focus or climbing ability, don't exist). 

The point system was created to lower the power levels from OP to manageable and decrease the amount of brainless violence. Voidus mentioned earlier eliminating the point system altogether--which, in my opinion, would be a better solution than raising the alloted number of points. The moment it's raised, almost everyone would bring their character to that level. Nothing would change. Interesting roleplay comes as a bi-product of well developed characters, not only powerful ones. 

Radiant progression in their Oaths is something that should be addressed, though. If that were to be changed, we would have to take into account creating ways to ensure it really is a progression as a result of real character development to the character and not simply at the character's writer's whim.

Yes, the skills section is incomplete. Like Kenod said, it's impossible to stick everything in. That's another reason why the point system isn't perfect. Mental powers tend to be less of a skill because it's typically more of a reflection of how the character is written. Some people are good at writing smart characters, others are better at less intelligent ones. Inclusion of the mental could end up being more of a burden than a help. Also, iirc, there's intelligence as a skill. Focus could be considered a part of that.

Then again, I've started leaning away from highly skilled and Invested characters. My opinions are all biased a certain way because of that.

[kenod]

6 minutes ago, Silva said:

The point system was created to lower the power levels from OP to manageable and decrease the amount of brainless violence. Voidus mentioned earlier eliminating the point system altogether--which, in my opinion, would be a better solution than raising the alloted number of points. The moment it's raised, almost everyone would bring their character to that level. Nothing would change. Interesting roleplay comes as a bi-product of well developed characters, not only powerful ones. 

For me, the idea behind raising the points limit isn't to create a real change. It's more to allow different characters and create more variety. At the moment it's often difficult to create characters that fit with a certain idea or concept because you don't have enough points, or at least that's how I find it. Raising the limit, especially for skills, allows for more variety in skill allocation, as well as having additional points for buying fluff skills, like being a great cook or speaking a lot of languages.

Also, there's the fact that a lot of us will probably be carrying over our Era 3 characters to Era 4. This means that it would probably be nice to have room for additional character development, to reflect things that happened in the current Era. This means characters might lose weaknesses, or have learned new skills. Something like that isn't really possible if we keep the current point limits, as a lot of characters were developed to use as many points as they could, meaning a single new skill or removal of a weakness would make the character OP, requiring them to be retired.

[MacThorstenson he/him]

Personally, I’ve never been a fan of the point system, I’ve always found it limiting and annoying to work with, especially since it’s not an effective way of ranking characters because so much depends on how it is RPed. So I would be in favor of replacing the point system with a much more loose set of character creation guidelines. 

That said, there are a number of benefits to having the points, namely it gives people a clear way to say this character is OP which makes it far easier to decide if a character is fair or not. If the point values weren’t there it would be difficult to point to a character and say this is OP because we couldn’t target a specific part of the character, this could result in more arguing and confusions regarding the whole process.

One issue I have with simply raising the point values is that a lot of the systems were valued with the idea of combinations in mind. I recall archer saying when he had finished the sheet that with the limit of 100, most OP combinations wouldn’t be allowed. So if we decided to rework the character system we would want to determine a few examples of characters that we would want to be the upper limit, so to speak, and then revalue the rest of the powers around those. 

[kenod]

I agree that the points system is rather limiting, but the issue is that it's currently the only way we've found to actually deal with power creep. The problem with creating guidelines is that (based on what I've seen in era 1 & 2) they'll become progressively less enforced as the era goes on, which can quickly spiral out of control, with one or two OP characters being enough to kick-start it. So while I dislike parts of the points system, I dislike what happened before we had them even more.

The issue is that I don't really have any solution for this though. Loosening the limits would simply make everyone design their characters around the new limits instead, while also (as Mac said) requiring a rewrite of parts of the Index. I think guidelines, if clear enough, might work, but it would require everyone in the RP to collectively make sure they're kept, not just relying on the mods to do so. If people think we'd be capable of that, then we could try it, but I think that otherwise we should stick to the point system. If we do try it, we should make sure the guidelines are as clear as possible though, and that everybody understands them, as well as the fact that if we don't manage to keep power-creep in check we'll go back to the point system.

[Sherlock Holmes he/him]

28 minutes ago, kenod said:

I agree that the points system is rather limiting, but the issue is that it's currently the only way we've found to actually deal with power creep. The problem with creating guidelines is that (based on what I've seen in era 1 & 2) they'll become progressively less enforced as the era goes on, which can quickly spiral out of control, with one or two OP characters being enough to kick-start it. So while I dislike parts of the points system, I dislike what happened before we had them even more.

The issue is that I don't really have any solution for this though. Loosening the limits would simply make everyone design their characters around the new limits instead, while also (as Mac said) requiring a rewrite of parts of the Index. I think guidelines, if clear enough, might work, but it would require everyone in the RP to collectively make sure they're kept, not just relying on the mods to do so. If people think we'd be capable of that, then we could try it, but I think that otherwise we should stick to the point system. If we do try it, we should make sure the guidelines are as clear as possible though, and that everybody understands them, as well as the fact that if we don't manage to keep power-creep in check we'll go back to the point system.

I agree with all of this.

Another issue that I think needs to be addressed: How much OOC and IC activity happens. Me, Sorana, and Emperor Stick discussed this on Discord, and we all think that more activity IC should happen. However, this relies on RPers being more responsible with what they RP.

[Voidus]

1 hour ago, Ark's Boyfriend said:

Anyways, I was thinking about potential changes that could be made to the characters system. Me and Ark were talking about the matter that you can't actually put all of your character's skills, whether or not they're relevant or worth any real points, on their character sheet, since you'll be over the allotted 150 points.

I don't want to sound defensive here, the points system is far from perfect as a solution, it's the best we've had so far I think but far from what I'd say is ideal. But one thing I did believe about it is that it's fairly open for fluff to be added where it's not going to change things much. The only skills that have listed point totals should be those that would have some form of effect on the RP. If there's something that wouldn't have an effect like that that you've been unable to include then please let us know, the Index can always be updated for things like that.

The intention is to avoid everyone creating a jack of all trades with no meaningful weakness who's clever, well-read and knowledgeable as well as experienced in every form of combat, stealth and lockpicking, etc., etc. That being said if you forgo Investiture or limit yourself to less than the full 100 point limit then you can get quite a number of skills wracked up.

So if anyone does have any specific concerns like this please let us know, as with most things the Index isn't a set in stone decision that can never be changed. That being said I personally don't think that increasing the point limit will do much, most likely people will tend towards stronger or more varied forms of Investiture rather than an increased skill portfolio. In my experience most of the best RP I've ever read has been between relatively low-power level characters, or characters with a wide gap in abilities, rather than two OP characters.
 

1 hour ago, Silva said:

Radiant progression in their Oaths is something that should be addressed, though. If that were to be changed, we would have to take into account creating ways to ensure it really is a progression as a result of real character development to the character and not simply at the character's writer's whim.

We have had some discussions around this, definitely something we want to iron out before next era, especially if there's some kind of time skip. In the meantime if anyone does feel like there's an appropriate moment for an Oath progression then let us know and it might get approved. We'd be looking for longer term characters who have had some kind of significant story arc ideally, unfortunately there's no easy way to quantify that so it's going to be case by case for now.

[Sherlock Holmes he/him]

1 minute ago, Voidus said:

I don't want to sound defensive here, the points system is far from perfect as a solution, it's the best we've had so far I think but far from what I'd say is ideal. But one thing I did believe about it is that it's fairly open for fluff to be added where it's not going to change things much. The only skills that have listed point totals should be those that would have some form of effect on the RP. If there's something that wouldn't have an effect like that that you've been unable to include then please let us know, the Index can always be updated for things like that.

The intention is to avoid everyone creating a jack of all trades with no meaningful weakness who's clever, well-read and knowledgeable as well as experienced in every form of combat, stealth and lockpicking, etc., etc. That being said if you forgo Investiture or limit yourself to less than the full 100 point limit then you can get quite a number of skills wracked up.

So if anyone does have any specific concerns like this please let us know, as with most things the Index isn't a set in stone decision that can never be changed. That being said I personally don't think that increasing the point limit will do much, most likely people will tend towards stronger or more varied forms of Investiture rather than an increased skill portfolio. In my experience most of the best RP I've ever read has been between relatively low-power level characters, or characters with a wide gap in abilities, rather than two OP characters.

I agree with all of this. I was bringing it up because it's irritating to have a character who only has one Investiture and two skills, and is at the limit.

[+Sorana she/her]

6 hours ago, Voidus said:

We have had some discussions around this, definitely something we want to iron out before next era, especially if there's some kind of time skip. In the meantime if anyone does feel like there's an appropriate moment for an Oath progression then let us know and it might get approved. We'd be looking for longer term characters who have had some kind of significant story arc ideally, unfortunately there's no easy way to quantify that so it's going to be case by case for now.

Well you already know about Althea, so just let me know once you thought of something.

 

Personally I feel like the current power level is good, if we find a way for characters to advance, to not only developp, but also to learn new skills based on their experiences. I can understand that some would like to have a stronger character with more types of investiture. So mayb ef we can do something like unlocking additional points after every era. Or we give it another try to go without a point system altogether.

 

Something completely different:

I'd like to edit bith the OP of the GB thread and or Oasis. As Meeker is inactive, and according to our chats won't be back anytime soon, is it better to create two new threads I can control, or could you maybe edit the OPs for me? I would write everything of course. I doubt Meeker would mind, as he gave me an all clear to do with the guild as it pleases me, as he isn't planing to come back atm.

@Voidus

@MacThorstenson